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spalted sinus problem!

J

Jay Coulson

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Aug 22, 2009
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Hi all,
I just recently experienced something that I thought I was immune to. About 6 months ago, I went thru a patch of time where I was buying blanks off of e-bay. I have turned spalted stuff before without incident...maple, poplar and others . Apparently, on one of my e-bay buys, I bought a "lot" of maybe 6 spalted blanks...different species. Long story short, I turned a bowl out of spalted black locust and, WOW...it absolutely destroyed my sinuses and throat. I've since read a bunch of stuff on the web about being cautious with the fungus wood and, guess I'll just have to be more careful in the future. Just hate wearing a mask while I'm turning...feel like I'm in the hospital or something. Oh yeah...had the dust collector going too, most of the time while cutting and, all of the time that I was sanding and finishing. An allergy I didn't know that I had I guess. Anybody else had this pleasant experience?
The spalted stuff has come out pretty well for me in the past altho, I've had a few that were punky but, hit them with polycryl and, they worked out ok.
Tks,
J😱
 
My sinuses really start acting up whenever I mill some old, punky walnut my in-laws kept in their barn for half a century. Some of it had been used by various critters for nefarious purposes. So it's not just spalting, but plenty of other contaminants that can cause a reaction.
 
... my adaptation to Russ's saying
There are two types of woodworkers, those that have allergy problems and those that will have allergy problems
Click to expand...

Me, I were a full-face mask, plus I have a dust-collector, plus a full-shop air-filter, plus a shop-rated (Shop-Fox/Grizzly) HEPA filter that I can set to run for up to three hours, after I leave the shop

Between them I no longer have a dust film on the equipment, and I never have ah, dusty stuff in my nose

I hope to put off problems with wood as long as I can
 
The problem could also have been the Black Locust as that is a wood that some react to. Maybe a combination of the two. Had a friend who reacted to it when it was green, but not when it was dry. Also saw it as a reaction wood in a poster on the wall of my doctors office.

robo hippy
 
Barbara Gill said:
I have never seen a spalted sinus.😱😀
Click to expand...

Curly spalted sinuses are the worst! Heh,heh,heh!

I've never had a sinus problem as a result of breathing wood dust......yet! Years ago, I can remember coughing up wood dust deep in my lungs, but I've been using both an Airstream helmet and a rubber respirator mask since around 1990, or so. Either one is very effective in eliminating airborne dust. I am clean shaven, but have had beards in the past. The rubber respirator is very uncomfortable with facial hair, expecially when sweat is added to the mix.

I only use these things during sanding.

How about everyone else?

I've come to the conclusion that most dust created from tool use is pretty heavy and does not remain airborne for long. This is only a consideration when turning punky, or spalted wood......as cutting tool use with most other woods only create shavings, not dust. (If your tools are creating airborne dust, then maybe a sharper cutting edge would be a helpful thing......😀)

I suppose it's possible I'm playing with fire here.......and, should consider wearing the Airstream helmet, or the respirator during all phases of turning spalted wood......but, until I see a definite symptom as a result of not using them, I probably won't.

ooc
 
odie said:
....
I suppose it's possible I'm playing with fire here.......and, should consider wearing the Airstream helmet, or the respirator during all phases of turning spalted wood......but, until I see a definite symptom as a result of not using them, I probably won't.

ooc
Click to expand...

A couple years ago I did a little test. I put a new set of filters in my helm, then turned (but not sanded) a dry piece of Paduk. I then took the pre-filters out, and noted the orange stripes at each air entry.
See the photo
 
n7bsn said:
A couple years ago I did a little test. I put a new set of filters in my helm, then turned (but not sanded) a dry piece of Paduk. I then took the pre-filters out, and noted the orange stripes at each air entry.
See the photo
Click to expand...

Interesting, n7bsn.......(are you a ham radio operator?)


Putting it all into perspective, the airflow going through the filter of a dust helmet is many times that of what would be breathed in without the helmet, during the same period of time.......agreed?

For us turners, there needs to be a balance between what is likely to be hazardous, and what is not. Surely, our own individual resistance levels aren't all the same, but we all breathe in a certain amount of foreign particles in the course of everyday life. If our goal is to breathe in zero foreign contaminents, then we will conduct our lives accordingly.

As I mentioned previously, one thing that will be a great help in producing less airborne particles, is having sharp tools, and knowing how to use them. When discussing spalting, this doesn't completely hold true, but it does eliminate the bulk of lighter-than-air dust created directly from cutting tools.

Don't consider my comment to be bypassing the significance of your photo, or comment. I cannot deny that airborne wood dust isn't a reality for woodturners......but, there needs to be some perspective in understanding the appropriate acceptance level for each of us individually, and how it may apply to each of us as such......and not necessarily as a group.......

It's true that by not wearing respiratory protection during all phases of lathe work, I do not guarantee myself a completely safe, or risk free enviornment. I said I may be "playing with fire", but I don't know that I will regret it at some future time. There are plenty of woodturners who have breathed wood dust over a lifetime, and have had no problems with it.......and, there are the others who have. Just because a risk is possible, doesn't mean conducting our lives according to the possibles, makes the overall experience better.......

I seldom wear a helmet when riding my Harley, either. I may pay for that someday, but wearing a helmet isn't going to make a bit of difference at 70mph!......and, from my point of view, the experience is lessened. 😉

ooc
 
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I look at it this way: Anything I know or suspect that will probably hurt me or I could be allergic to, I'll filter, collect, or blow away from me while wearing a mask. As of now, that means walnut, anything oily and imported, and CERTAINLY anything with fungus (spalted).

Think about what you heard about the flooded homes in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. After the water left, fungus took over everything and they had to be gutted or torn down. Fungus isn't good for your lungs, sinuses or any other internal part of your body. Don't let it get in!
 
waltben said:
I look at it this way: Anything I know or suspect that will probably hurt me or I could be allergic to, I'll filter, collect, or blow away from me while wearing a mask. As of now, that means walnut, anything oily and imported, and CERTAINLY anything with fungus (spalted).

Think about what you heard about the flooded homes in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. After the water left, fungus took over everything and they had to be gutted or torn down. Fungus isn't good for your lungs, sinuses or any other internal part of your body. Don't let it get in!
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are right, waltben......

Maybe the best position to take is somewhere in the middle, between someone like me, who tends to be a little carefree with a streak of dare-devil.......and, someone who has an abnormal need to minimize all the risks, no matter how small or insignificant.......

I have a lot of spalted wood to turn in the next few months. This thread is focusing my attention on what risks this may be for my health.

Do you, or others, believe that roughing wet spalted turning blocks require respiratory protection? I would think the risks would be minimal there.....but, final turning of seasoned roughed bowls may deserve a little more risk assessment on my part..............?

What is it about Walnut that makes you single it out in particular?

Thanks

ooc
 
I'm not suggesting everyone run out and buy a $500 monster self-contained breathing system, but fungus is fungus no matter in wet wood or dry. The spoors will become airborne more easily with dry wood, and are what can cause nasty respiratory infections. I don't believe I'm being over cautious - the kind of mask I'm talking about is just a good disposable type. We've many large deciduous trees in my neighborhood, and I wear one this time of the year while mowing or leaf blowing as I'm also allergic to leaf mold. If the weather is warm enough, I'll just have my 'studio' garage doors open and turn on the floor fans to blow everything out past me. I just make certain I'm not breathing any of the stuff.

Exotics are something different. I know a luthier in Southern VA that had a severe respiratory reaction to cocobolo dust that took over two years and several weeks in the UVA hospital to get over. His lungs are still not really recovered. Early on when I started turning, I didn't really pay too much attention to this, but I do now. In general, I believe the oily exotics are the ones to worry about the most. I've not had any problems with bubbinga, purpleheart, or any of the 'dry' ones.

The only domestic wood that bothers me at all is American black walnut. I get hay fever like reactions from breathing it's dust. English walnut doesn't bother me at all - it's really a different species.
 
Jay Coulson said:
Hi all,
Long story short, I turned a bowl out of spalted black locust and, WOW...it absolutely destroyed my sinuses and throat. I've since read a bunch of stuff on the web about being cautious with the fungus wood and, guess I'll just have to be more careful in the future. Just hate wearing a mask while I'm turning...feel like I'm in the hospital or something. Oh yeah...had the dust collector going too, most of the time while cutting and, all of the time that I was sanding and finishing. An allergy I didn't know that I had I guess. Anybody else had this pleasant experience?
Click to expand...


Not an allergy, but a sensitivity. Allergies are generally assumed to be systemic, though the first sign may well be the histamine that makes the mucous flow.

I'd favor Hippy's opinion. Locust is one of those "durable" woods. What makes it durable is its load of fungicide and insecticide. If it were spalted, was it only in the sapwood? Real witches' brew of chemicals in the heartwood probably got to your snoot.

Means you're not likely to get a lot of help from a simple filtration mask either. The chemicals are released when you're crushing the wood, and they need to be adsorbed by something like charcoal. Your DC just puts them back into the air in a different place.
 
n7bsn said:
A couple years ago I did a little test. I put a new set of filters in my helm, then turned (but not sanded) a dry piece of Paduk. I then took the pre-filters out, and noted the orange stripes at each air entry.
See the photo
Click to expand...

I had a really bad reaction to paduk a few years back and had to go through respiratory drugs to clear my lungs. It took many weeks to clear them up so now I avoid a lot of african woods and always use a mask while sanding, not as much turning since I turn a lot of green wood ( not had any reaction to fungus since I turn a lot of wet wood))
 
waltben said:
Michael, fungus spoors are a particulate, not a vapor or gas.
Click to expand...

And they are produced within the fruiting body, not the mycelium. Unless there were visible fruiting bodies, I'll doubt there is a problem with spoors.
 
fungus amongus

Thanks all,
Didn't know we had a few botanists in our midst. I also have an air filter running...mounted on the celiling with filters ..timer, blah ,blah. Seems to me that this junk didn't bother me whilst I was cutting the bowl too much. I think the sanding did the job on me. Damnable worst part is, the bowl came out really nice! Neat grain pattern and a little color...nothing like ambrosia but, very pretty.
To digresss...I was rooting around on e-bay this weekend which I haven't done in a long time and, there was an ambrosia silver maple blank, about 11" and, WOW! Don't know that I've ever seen a piece quite like it, ever. Thing looked like a rainbow. It was bid at $125.50 with 23 hours to go. Never looked to see where it finished price wise.
Anyway, for now I think I'm just gonna stray away from black locust. The sinus thing was just plain un-fun, Never had a problem with coco or lignum etc. Crazy locust thing brought me down....
I guess the spalted stuff has it's drawbacks too...neat grain etc but, if it gets punky, it'll fly off the chuck, sometimes you have to go get out the polycryl and
you can end up with the little spalted "pits" in the finished piece. Some folks think that's cute and adds "character". Insipient rot. like John Jordan says, life's too short to turn crappy wood. That comment ought to start some dialogue! Who cares? Stupid wood wrecked my nite.
Ciao,
J
 
MichaelMouse said:
And they are produced within the fruiting body, not the mycelium. Unless there were visible fruiting bodies, I'll doubt there is a problem with spoors.
Click to expand...

Because it is not a vapor or gas, a HEPA filter is all that is necessary, no charcoal. I can tell you that regardless of what it is, turning spalted wood in particular, will lead to very nasty sinus infections if proper precautions are not taken, and it is directly related to the fungus. While I do agree, it may be a particular fungus', not being a mycologist, it isn't worth the risk for me.
 
I've just finished reading through this thread and I cant belive that there's woodturners who dont wear a mask when turning 😱

all dust is dangerous with spalted being one of the worst offenders.

the smallest the human eye can see (un assisted) is 5 micron, you might not think that thees no dust around you while your turning but trust me your surronded by it.

I have always worn a full respirator helmet, i put it on before i go into my workshop and i do not take it of until i come back out- i have a microclean ambient air filter running all day and i have two powerfull extractors for when i'm sanding.

it's an enjoyable hobby but if you want to be able to do it and keep doing it you do need to take care of your self.
 
MichaelMouse said:
Sheesh! I just read this, and I have to say that there is a difference between spore and spoor. The spalting might be called a spoor, but it won't contain spores.

Everyone get a read of the Techie's spalting 'speriments? http://www.mtu.edu/umc/services/pr-news/magazine/fall09/stories/spalt-gestalt/

What she's holding is what happens when you keep maple too wet.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the link, MM.

But there's an alternate theory of the etymology of "spalting." Decayed wood was considered "spoiled," sometimes pronounced "spoilt" in a quaint way. With a little relaxation, "spoilt" became "spalt." And then the past tense became a present-tense verb in itself.

See also "parcel" -> "passel."
 
Steve Worcester said:
Because it is not a vapor or gas, a HEPA filter is all that is necessary, no charcoal. I can tell you that regardless of what it is, turning spalted wood in particular, will lead to very nasty sinus infections if proper precautions are not taken, and it is directly related to the fungus. While I do agree, it may be a particular fungus', not being a mycologist, it isn't worth the risk for me.
Click to expand...

If it's a sinus infection, it's obviously not caused by one of the myriad of fungi from which we derive antibiotics. OTOH, lots of people react to antibiotics.

You are speaking of the dust. The chemicals carried by the dust are the danger, not the carrier itself. Thus smelling it, which with the human snoot requires a pretty good concentration, can quickly lead to the itching eye, running nose and urticaria we call a reaction. That requires charcoal.

NOTHING requires a HEPA mask except bacteria. That's because, as always, the danger depends on the dosage. One bacterium is the disease, a million bits of dust are trapped in nasopharangeal mucus and soil the next kleenex.
 
the fungus wood

Thanks MM.
I read the following and, think that you are correct.

"Because it is not a vapor or gas, a HEPA filter is all that is necessary"

I had heard that the HEPA filters only proteceted us from certain airborne stuff...bacteria ..yes but fungi, nope. With this H1N1 flying all over the place, the whole mask deal is front and center. Anyway you cut it...nopun intended, I guess I need to be more careful. However, I just don't picture myself walking into the shop with the helmet on as George recommends and, leaving it on the entire time. Kind of reminds me of a moon-walk or something the astronuts would do. I'm sure it's probably the best solution but, we all know how any mask...including simple slip-over eye protection gets either fogged up or, loaded with dust and, I just can't see what I'm doing.
So folks, with as much time as I spend standing over the new lathe, guess I'm in for a full-blown turning helmet. My problem is, every time I've gotten ready to buy one, a new chuck or a couple of gouges caught my eye! In the end, suppose it's a small price to pay to remain relatively healthy.
J
 
spalted wood

A few years ago (I have mentioned this in other threads in the past) I got respiratory problems 8 hours later. Nose got so stuffy that NO air got thru. At times I got burning in the chest and maybe a few weeks later coughed up ugly taste (ie rotting lung???) Got better thru the week until the weekend-(was working full time then) figured it was the spalted wood. But recurred without spalted wood, and other times turned spalted wood without the problem. Took 4 months to figure out it was the superglue, not the wood. I now use the "oderless" thin with no problesm. There isn't a thick oderless type and if I have to use it (which I have recently gluing up ice cream scoops and cheese planes), I take a 24 hour allergy pill right away and I get none of these problems.
I also usually wet sand with mineral oil after 300 grit, so the fine dust isn't created (may also cut down on the wood splitting while drying) . (also use Dust collector),Gretch
 
I have serious sinus problems, have had for years. In the shop I wear a Triton helmet, have two air cleaners(one Jet and one home built w/ HEPA filters) and a DC to get as much dust and debris at the source as possible. The problem comes after I remove the helmet.

Because the helmet becomes a PITA after several hours, I then have to get out of the shop until the dust settles. I vacuum the shop the next day or later the same day, wearing one of the rated particulate throwaway masks. After any session in the shop w/without woodworking I use a Neti pot or Neal Med sinus rinse. I credit this entire protocol with reducing my sinus problems to one or two minor infections per year.

Hint: do not use the helmet when you have a cold or sinus trouble. Sneezes and coughs become very messy affairs.😱🙄
 
Spalting and medical conditions

Seri Robinson is a PHD student at Micigan Tecnical University in the UP. She has done her research on spalting in different woods, different fungi and molds and different patterns of wood rot and decay. She has a blog on the Fine Woodworking magazine as well. All of her advice for wood toxicity and allergy is solid from my background as a Family Practice doctor and as a woodturner, plus it's all a fun read if you are interested in spalting. Her website is at:

northernspalting.com

Dr. Bob

PS----I missed page 2 before I posted. Michael Mouse has already provided the same reference.
 
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sinus stuff

Super glue? Never thought about that Gretch. But, I have noticed that Briwax burns for a short period of time when I break open a can. Actually, when I started this thread, I resolved that the problem was the spalted black locust and....I still believe that. But, I was doing this bowl in the quick and dirty method of cutting and finishing the profile and then, reversing to the chuck to hollow and finish. Well, when I opened the Briwax to put just one coat on the profile, it burned as it always does for a short patch of time. But, when I continued on to hollowing, sanding and finishing the inside, it just got worse and worse. That part, I later blamed on the spalted dust. Just wondering if the mild burning that the wax caused on the 1st 1/2 of the bowl was exacerbated by the dust from doing the remainder.
Isn't that a great thing about Vicmarc chux and the right jaws? If you cut the tenon right, you can rechuck and end-up with a foot/base with no dents! It even works on spalted wood bowls...
super glue???? tung oil bothers me a little also sometimes.
Later,
J

Gretch Flo said:
A few years ago (I have mentioned this in other threads in the past) I got respiratory problems 8 hours later. Nose got so stuffy that NO air got thru. At times I got burning in the chest and maybe a few weeks later coughed up ugly taste (ie rotting lung???) Got better thru the week until the weekend-(was working full time then) figured it was the spalted wood. But recurred without spalted wood, and other times turned spalted wood without the problem. Took 4 months to figure out it was the superglue, not the wood. I now use the "oderless" thin with no problesm. There isn't a thick oderless type and if I have to use it (which I have recently gluing up ice cream scoops and cheese planes), I take a 24 hour allergy pill right away and I get none of these problems.
I also usually wet sand with mineral oil after 300 grit, so the fine dust isn't created (may also cut down on the wood splitting while drying) . (also use Dust collector),Gretch
Click to expand...
 
I turned 4 spalted beech bowls a few months back and ever since I've been suffering with what feels like a huge ball of phlegm in my throat, nothing my Doctor has given me will clear it.
 
Burning

What do you mean by burning-the wood or your hands????Gretch

Jay Coulson said:
Super glue? Never thought about that Gretch. But, I have noticed that Briwax burns for a short period of time when I break open a can. Actually, when I started this thread, I resolved that the problem was the spalted black locust and....I still believe that. But, I was doing this bowl in the quick and dirty method of cutting and finishing the profile and then, reversing to the chuck to hollow and finish. Well, when I opened the Briwax to put just one coat on the profile, it burned as it always does for a short patch of time. But, when I continued on to hollowing, sanding and finishing the inside, it just got worse and worse. That part, I later blamed on the spalted dust. Just wondering if the mild burning that the wax caused on the 1st 1/2 of the bowl was exacerbated by the dust from doing the remainder.
Isn't that a great thing about Vicmarc chux and the right jaws? If you cut the tenon right, you can rechuck and end-up with a foot/base with no dents! It even works on spalted wood bowls...
super glue???? tung oil bothers me a little also sometimes.
Later,
J
Click to expand...
 
sinus

Hi Gretch,
Sorry, didn't mean to infer that the Briwax burns my hands. When I open the can, the fumes from the stuff are pretty pungent (to my sinuses) and, those fumes burn a little bit when I breathe them in thru my nose. But, as a said, that usually goes away pretty quick. However, with this spalted stuff, I'm thinking that the wax irritated my sinus and throat to start with and, the spalted dust did the rest of the damage.
J
 
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