• Congratulations to Alex Bradley winner of the December 2024 Turning Challenge (click here for details)
  • Conversations are now Direct Messages (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Gabriel Hoff for "Spalted Beech Round Bottom Box" being selected as Turning of the Week for January 6, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Snapped Roughing Gouge

Joined
Jun 20, 2005
Messages
1
Likes
0
Location
North San Diego County, CA
Well today I managed to snap off the tang on my Sorby 1 1/4" roughing gouge as I was rounding out some wet 8" Avacado stock which was mounted cross grain in the lathe. (The pith center ran 90deg to the lathe bed). In fact, the tang had bent slightly so I straightened it out one or twice before and this may have led to its demise.

So now I need a replacement and thought it would be appropriate to solicit recommendations of a good strong replacement.

Any suggestions on the merits of a narrower ( say 3/4 ") or even a 1 3/4" shallow gouge ?
 
marty said:
Any suggestions on the merits of a narrower ( say 3/4 ") or even a 1 3/4" shallow gouge ?

At the risk be being "cylindrical", get the P&N large roughing gouge that is milled from large stock rather than being drop forged from flat steel. Have one which I have ground to 80* with a 5* backward slant to the points. Cuts ribbons or chunks; your choice. Recommend the steel handle to match.

Mark
 
I wouldn't use a roughing gouge on a cross-grain (bowl) blank. A roughing gouge is for spindle turning. Use a bowl gouge - a 1/2" gouge should be quite big enough for a blank 8" in diameter.

Graeme
 
Snapped Tangs

In my role as assistant manager at a Woodcraft store I have seen several large roughing gouges that had been snapped off at the tang which customers have returned as "defective". :mad: We have replaced these under our 1 year, 100% customer satisfaction policy, but we also teach the customers the proper way to use a roughing gouge. The main problem is not to let the gouge overhang the tool rest too far. If the overhang is too great and a "catch" occurs, this exerts an undue bending force on the tang where it meets the handle (snap!). One must not allow the gap between the toolrest and the workpiece to exceed 1/2" to 3/4". You must continually move the tool rest to maintain a small gap as you cut away waste material. Once the customer understands this and maintains a small gap between the toolrest and the workpiece, no more snapped tangs 🙂 and we get thanked for help them out.

Peter Toch
 
Peter, good description. I tell people to simply use a bowl gouge. The tang is much thicker and with swept back wings it's also less likely to catch one of these. At least once a month you hear of someone breaking a tang on a rough out gouge by trying to rough out a bowl. Then they blame the tool manufacturer. As you stated very well the tool isn't the problem it's the tool usage.
The P@N rough out gouge does have a very thick tang but I still think a bowl gouge is a better tool for roughing a bowl.
 
marty said:
Well today I managed to snap off the tang on my Sorby 1 1/4" roughing gouge as I was rounding out some wet 8" Avacado stock which was mounted cross grain in the lathe. (The pith center ran 90deg to the lathe bed). In fact, the tang had bent slightly so I straightened it out one or twice before and this may have led to its demise.

So now I need a replacement and thought it would be appropriate to solicit recommendations of a good strong replacement.

Any suggestions on the merits of a narrower ( say 3/4 ") or even a 1 3/4" shallow gouge ?

The merits of forged gouges like those from Lee Valley are great. They are of sufficient radius to get a good bevel guide, of heavier cross-section even in the tang than the roughing gouge, and provide dual clearance by their curvature in two dimensions, across the nose and up at the edges. You still can't stuff them into end grain, though, not if you want a reasonable surface, and you still want to keep the toolrest close at all times. For a picture of the business end, with some resin attached showing the part of the bevel which was guiding, see : http://www.photosite.com/mmouse8/MoreMouseDroppings/?page=2 (Spindle Compare) They are also excellent for trimming inside a bowl , which makes them even more desirable. There's a picture of one peeling inside on the same page. They don't hollow well, because they must be used close to vertical, rather than horizontal, where the wood might grab the edge. They don't give a bevel guide like the nose of a bowl gouge does when using the sides of the flute. Avoid the temptation to excessive fingernailing to preserve their versatility, which derives from having a fairly constant grind angle. Means not rolling them, but panning from side to side at the desired bevel angle when sharpening at the wheel.
 
3/8 or 1/2 side ground bowl gouge

For a bowl mounted as you descride a bowl gouge will be a much better choice.

I prefer the side ground tool (Ellsworth grind) but you can get good results with the tradtional english grind.

The side ground gouge is the best tool for this work.
Properly used the side ground tool will allow you to
rough the bowl faster,
get a better finish cut,
achieve a better surface, and most probably nicer curves than you can get with a roughing gouge or traditional English ground gouge.

If your lathe is less than 1hp I would reccomend the 3/8 gouge in M2 Steel which is made from a 1/2" bar of steel. The 1/2" gouge can easily remove a 3/4" shaving but this will tend to stall a small motor.

It should come as no surprise that the side ground gouge is the tool of choice for profesional bowl turners.
Time and quality of cut = money
If the guys turning hundreds of bowls a week could turn one more in a day with another tool they would switch in a heartbeat.

happy turning,
Al
 
Hey Marty,

Okay. I'm gonna put myself in serious danger of criticism here.

Yup, I use a large roughing gouge for.....wait for it.....wait for it.... roughing stuff round. This would include a blank as you describe. Two things. First, the post on keeping the tool rest close with minimal overhang is absolutely correct. Ya gotta keep leverage on your side and an easy mistake is to keep taking off more and more until you're hanging out there and a nasty occurs.

Second, no one every taught me how to approach the piece with the roughing gouge until well into my turning career. The trick is to drop the handle drastically until the bottom of the gouge is rubbing (or clacking loudly as the case may be) against the wood. Hint:don't do this by extending it up real high off the rest, do it by dropping the handle otherwise we're back to the overextended issue. Once you're clacking nicely, slowly raise the handle and draw the tool back until the bevel touches and then the edge. Once the edge has begun to cut wood, stop and move it side to side, changing handle angle and rotation to engage easilly in any given direction.

What you've done here is engaged the cutting edge rather than pushing it straight into the wood and using it as a glorified scraper (which is what I did all those years). This also, with a catch, will tend to push the gouge back towards you rather than lock down the edge and stall on it or break the tool. The other thing is to get some speed to the blank before you start this to prevent you from pushing the gouge into the open space as the blank turns, creating a large catch. As the piece rounds more and more, you'll find you can increase the speed and more easilly ride the bevel, making cleaner cuts. I often end up doing much of the outer shaping with the roughing gouge once it starts to cut clean.

Finally, as to the broken tang, what you do when you bend it and straighten it repeatedly is stress temper it. This makes it much more brittle and leads to an eventual break. It's the same effect as when you break a wire by repeated bending. If you have plenty of gouge left, I'd just grind the base until you have a new tang and remount it. If it's relatively new, you can spare the 1 1/2 inch of tool.

Whew, longwinded response. Hope it's helpful.
And to all the physicists and sharp spoon users out there, be gentle.

Dietrich
 
Warning

dkulze said:
Finally, as to the broken tang, what you do when you bend it and straighten it repeatedly is stress temper it. This makes it much more brittle and leads to an eventual break. It's the same effect as when you break a wire by repeated bending. If you have plenty of gouge left, I'd just grind the base until you have a new tang and remount it. If it's relatively new, you can spare the 1 1/2 inch of tool.

Dietrich,

Same issue came up on WC regarding a snapped Hamlet roughing gouge. The following from that thread should be noted:

"Several weeks ago, I posted about my Hamlet 2060 Roughing Gouge failure where the gouge broke the tang at the handle while roughing a log. I mentioned how I reshaped the gouge end to make a new tang and reseated into the handle making a useable but shorter gouge. Ron Zalk, a Hamlet rep in Israel, responded that Hamlet would replace and gave me the contact in England. After sending the broken tang to Hamlet, I received a new unhandled gouge yesterday and a letter strongly suggesting that I not use the reshaped gouge because of possible temper changes while reshaping a new tang. "Please consider the posssibe heat damage reshaping may do to your turning tool before attempting." "

Key warning here is that the reshaped tang is potentially in danger and should not be used. This conforms with what little I know about heat treating and tempering other steels. Harder alloys like M2, M4, cobalt, and ASP stuff make it even more important. Tell me that you quenched the piece often while you were grinding/shaping it and I'll plead with you to put it in the garbage now because of the micro cracking that quenching causes in high speed steels which are ground under continuous coolant so they don't heat up to begin with.

M
 
Hi Mark.

I appreciate your concern and, yes, it is likely that you'll end up with a somewhat weakend tang compared to the original. I still feel, however, that this is a pretty typical approach to reclaiming a damaged tool and that any extra danger added will be minimal unless you really do a number on the steel while grinding it (and even then, the tang stays pretty strong).

My experience of manufacturers is that, if they are willing and able to replace a part or tool, go for it. It's always a good thing to start fresh when you can. And, when you talk with a manufacturer, they will always point out a decreased performance and increased risk, even if it is slight.

When the manufacturer won't replace, then I'm all for making home modifications (within reason). This seems to be a pretty integral and longstanding aspect of woodturning, with many of todays tools starting as home designs and with many custom tools still being made. I know several well known turners who even give classes on tool making, and own a variety of home grown deep hollowers myself.

Oh, and when I've reground a tang, I do use a high friable wheel to keep the heat down. Also, it's HSS so that helps with maintaining temper.

Dietrich
 
dkulze said:
Hi Mark.

I appreciate your concern and, yes, it is likely that you'll end up with a somewhat weakend tang compared to the original.

Okay 😀

Just so we're all (including the lurkers) on the same page, metalurgically speaking, and are aware of the issues.

I've made some of my tools as well, but I stay away from the higher alloys because I don't have the tools or knowledge to work them to full advantage.


Mark

PS: What you don't know can kill you.
 
Last edited:
Same here. Most of what I play with includes an attached tip of a higher alloy or reground HSS, since it keeps it's temper pretty much as long as you don't do a glowing red or stress temper it. I'd never do a major mod on a powdered steel or exotic allow tool. Those go back to the factory when they go ping.

I'm glad I came around in the age of HSS so I don't have to grind down big files to make my custom scrapers. Now that's dangerous (if you don't heat temper them right they shatter into nice, sharp shards when things go badly wrong).

Now, one thing I'm looking forward to is a custom tool made for me by a friend who is a machinist. He's going to make me what amounts to a giant Sorby Multitip type tool. It will consist of a 3' bar of 1 1/2" square stainless steel with a tang on one end and a hole with tapped set screws on the other. It will get a 3' handle (with attachment for counterbalance weights) and a variety of HSS or TungTan (modified tungsten steel that grinds easier) tips and attachments. Should compete nicely with the 30lb capture rig he built for another friend. That one is only about 4 1/2' long in total so I win.

Dietrich

P.S.(he who dies with the biggest tool wins)
 
That tang thang

I heard once the wise man and lots to say, but never says it. So here is my take on this tang discussion. The darn tang already broke so I doubt it would be much of a surprise to the user it if broke again.
 
Allan Batty tells a story about roughing gouges; i'll try to paraphrase it

after a young man visited Allan's son, Stuart, at his studio, he decided that he wanted to turn wood as well. but he wanted to turn bigger things. so he got a big lathe and mounted up a big hunk of wood, and got the biggest roughing gouge he could find. after all, as the young man deducted, a bigger piece of wood needs a bigger tool -- right?

as the young man turned on the lathe, and brought the spinning wood up to speed, he took his biggest to the wood. immediately there was a horrendous bang and everyone ran to the lathe to see what had happened.

the young man had been knocked backward, however other than being a bit confused, he was unharmed. as he pulled himself together, he started to look for the roughing gouge, but couldn't find it. he and others looked and looked but never discovered what happened to the tool.

then one day soon after, Stuart paid a visit to the young man. as he described to Stuart the moment-to-moment playback of he accident, Stuart started to laugh. the young man started to get a bit annoyed with Stuart's seemingly lack of compassion until Stuart pointed upward to the ceiling, and said "guess that explains why you have a big-hunk of steel sticking out of your ceiling!"

with a twinkle in Allan's eye, he made certain we all understood the moral to his story. you don't want a big piece of steel grabbing at a big hunk of wood, unless of course you are Arnold! (but then if you're Arnold, you have to have a heart-valve replacement before you turn 43--but i digress!)

and if you ever get a chance to visit with Allan, don't pass it up! he is the most knowledgeable of turners and the most delightful of people around.
 
Back
Top