Serious skew skills

[robo hippy]

I just discovered this turner through Mike Waldt, who also has some excellent turning videos up. Love the steady rest too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRDGq551PA

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks for the link, Reed! This one of several videos I've seen that convince me that learning to use a skew well is totally worth the effort involved.

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

The spindle steady is pretty interesting. I think he's got it down! Mike is another I follow. I enjoy his personality as well as his turning.

Doug

 

[Odie]

Very interesting video. It doesn't appear as though he uses any sizing instruments for the profile, other than his wood standard with the square cutout and marks to show locations of the details. When he put the finished piece in the pile of others, they all looked exactly the same.......very practiced eye, there! 😀

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

I also see that if you are really good with the skew then you can cut uphill.

 

[Wood&Guns]

And I waste all that time cutting my sand paper into small pieces, lol.

 

[Bill Boehme]

And I waste all that time cutting my sand paper into small pieces, lol.

🙄 Yep, he just uses the cheapest paper and uses it like an old shop rag. I spend all kinds of money on fancy pants sandpaper, cut it in quarters and fold each quarter into thirds, spend ten fold as much time sanding, and maybe almost get results half as good. I'm not even going to talk about my relationship with the skew. 🙄

 

[john lucas]

Those may be ready for paint which means they don't have to be sanded to the quality most of us do. Not putting down what he does which is extremely good work. Just saying that I stop at 220 and fine scratches don't show when you paint stair ballisters. Wish I had his skill with the skew. My friend Randy Trentham use to do production turning in Gatlinburg, TN when he was young. There aren't any wasted movements of the tool. He frequently cuts up hill but he knows when and where he can get away with it.

 

[Owen Lowe]

🙄 Yep, he just uses the cheapest paper and uses it like an old shop rag. I spend all kinds of money on fancy pants sandpaper, cut it in quarters and fold each quarter into thirds, spend ten fold as much time sanding, and maybe almost get results half as good. I'm not even going to talk about my relationship with the skew. 🙄

He’s using Klingspor paper; is that considered cheap? (I don’t know — I’m a Mirka man myself.) He uses 80 > 120 > 180 grits so his finish surface is not particularly fine.

Regardless, all of his movements show that he’s made a ton of these.

 

[john lucas]

180 or 220 is where I stop if I'm going to paint anything. If you sand smoother sometimes the paint won't bond properly. Found out the hard way about that. Klingspor gold is good paper and not very expensive.

 

[robo hippy]

I was talking with a painter friend, and he never wanted it sanded finer than 150, and any finer and you had bonding problems, especially since paint is mostly pigment and minimal on binding agents, which is supposed to be why you use primer first, and then paint.

I am curious about the type of wood he is turning...

robo hippy

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I could not help but notice how short his skew is. To me that means the handle has to move more distance to achieve result. Is it possible that that makes the works easier?
I watched a Craft Supplies video on sharpening the skew to round the end (could not remember the grind) . I tried on a old cheap skew and it is much better. Never could figure how to sharpen it that way.
Oh, I tried his web site and it comes up not found.

 

[John K Jordan]

I also see that if you are really good with the skew then you can cut uphill.

A lot of that depends on the wood itself. With some I often cut uphill; with others the tearout is a problem. Some woods even chip when using a skew on a thin cylinder or even a downhill taper - I have a supply of Osage Orange that does that, but fortunately it is quite clean with a gouge.

JKJ

 

[Bill Boehme]

A lot of that depends on the wood itself. With some I often cut uphill; with others the tearout is a problem. Some woods even chip when using a skew on a thin cylinder or even a downhill taper - I have a supply of Osage Orange that does that, but fortunately it is quite clean with a gouge.

JKJ

That makes me feel less guilty. Maybe I can tell my skew to share some of the blame. 🙄

 

[Bill Boehme]

I could not help but notice how short his skew is. To me that means the handle has to move more distance to achieve result. Is it possible that that makes the works easier?
I watched a Craft Supplies video on sharpening the skew to round the end (could not remember the grind) . I tried on a old cheap skew and it is much better. Never could figure how to sharpen it that way.
Oh, I tried his web site and it comes up not found.

Are you talking about the short bevel or overall short tool length? I think it is more of a perception based on how the tool is being held if talking about tool length. With a short bevel, I believe that the tool handle has to be swung less left and right to do opposite sides of V cuts and beads.

You are probably referring to either the Richard Raffan or Alan Lacer type of grind. Both are basically the same thing. I bought one of the Alan Lacer pry-bar skews and even took a class from him. I understand its utility in roughing out large cylinders, but it isn't my favorite. It does make a really great negative rake scraper, but it's too big to open paint cans. My favorite is actually a Sorby oval skew. I grind it with a very slight src from toe to heel.

 

[john lucas]

What I call a short bevel is the tool ground lets say 60 degree included angle. Long bevel would be more like 30 degree included angle. With the short bevel using my definition you swing the handle further to turn square sided beads than you would using a 30 degree bevel. the shorter bevel however allows it to turn a steeper cove than than the long bevel. And yes you can turn coves with a skew. 🙂
Curved edge skews are better for planing cuts and parting style cuts. I don't like them for turning beads if the curve is too great because it's hard to see what your doing. Maybe I'm just used to using a straight edge skew for those cuts but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Sandpaper...

I'm surprised how (seemingly) few people use Abranet mesh. That stuff lasts forever and a day. Right now, my supply goes from P100 through P240 but I plan to get some finer stuff soon (and P80 too, for those "Ahhhh, cr*p" days). It's so easy to knock off anything that loads, and it stays much cooler than regular sandpaper. I have little snack-baggies with various small pieces that get used, re-used, and re-re-used, and they're still cutting like crazy. Larger pieces for bowls. No doubt in my mind that their initial higher cost pays off in use-per-square-inch down the road.😎

 

[Bill Boehme]

What I call a short bevel is the tool ground lets say 60 degree included angle. Long bevel would be more like 30 degree included angle. With the short bevel using my definition you swing the handle further to turn square sided beads than you would using a 30 degree bevel...

Actually, it's just the opposite of that. At first, when I was composing my post, I was thinking the same as you stated, but then visualizing it in my mind, I decided to take a closer look.

First, I started with a simple V cut. To make things easier to see, I used a broad V with an included angle of 90° in my illustration. The short bevel skew has an included angle of 60° and the long bevel skew has an included angle of 30°. What we can see in the sketch is that the handle is swung further left and right when using the long bevel (30° left and right for a total swing of 60°). The short bevel tool is swung 15° left and right for a total of 30°.




The next illustration below shows cutting a half bead (it could also represent a a rounded over pommel cut on a table leg). It's not any surprise that the tool swings 90° for a half bead regardless of the included angle of the tool. However, if turning a full bead, then the starting point will be different between the short and long bevel tools. With the long bevel tool, the handle swings left and right 75° for a total handle swing of 150°. For the short bevel tool, the handle swings left and right 60° for a total handle swing of 120°. Does that matter? I would say that it matters only if something is interfering with the handle swing. Otherwise, the handle swing on each side of the bead is the same ... just the starting and ending positions are different.

The long bevel starts off sharper, but being thinner, probably gets dull quicker. The short bevel probably isn't as sharp initially, but is slower to wear down.

....... Curved edge skews are better for planing cuts and parting style cuts. I don't like them for turning beads if the curve is too great because it's hard to see what your doing. Maybe I'm just used to using a straight edge skew for those cuts but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I would agree that the ones with the exaggerated curved edges are not so good for beads. The curve that I use is barely different from a straight edge and I think that makes it slightly easier for me to hand hone.


p.s., My 2-D representation by necessity makes some simplifications of real world conditions, but I don't believe that it invalidates what I stated.

 

[john lucas]

I don't cut my beads that way. I roll the skew over the bead so the tool starts at about 90 degrees and then is pushed out to finish the bead. So both tools start about the same but the short bevel skew has to be pushed further to finish the cut. Look at 8 minutes into the video to see how i turn a bead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA91yJ9KhKU
when I did the preparations for my video on skew differences I had 17 skews of all types and sizes. I experimented with lots of cuts, lots of sharpening and how they handle. They all work great but handle differently. I did find some definite differences in ease or difficulty in sharpening but with practice all could be sharpened fairly easy. I don't use the curved edge enough to really get used to it. I found turning beads a little more difficult because I'm used to watching the heel of the skew as it cuts. It's harder to see with some curved edge skews. If you use it a lot I'm sure it would not be a problem. I mean I have no doubt that Alan Lacer would run circles around me with his skew because he is a professional turner and turns with it every day. In short, he practices with his skew a lot. I am pretty darn good with my favorite skew but I don't turn every day (at least not with the skew).
I found the same thing with concave vs flat vs convex skew edges. All cut, and all sharpened diffferently. I did find the convex edge skew more difficult for me to turn a bead. I seemed to search for the edge. I think Eli Avisera would argue with that since he teaches it. The reason is, he uses it all the time. so it falls back on my premise that's it's not so much shape but what you learn to use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFlZyGKYro4

 

[Bill Weaver]

I'm amazed at how easy he makes it look. I know, I know, he does it all the time and for a living. There is one thing I see that he could improve upon, and that is the sleeves that video showed how close he comes to being wrapped around his machine. 😱

 

[Bill Boehme]

I don't cut my beads that way. I roll the skew over the bead so the tool starts at about 90 degrees and then is pushed out to finish the bead. So both tools start about the same but the short bevel skew has to be pushed further to finish the cut. Look at 8 minutes into the video to see how i turn a bead......

Duh ....... I just had major senior moment here! I got so fixated on how to depict how the cutting edge and wood meet in a 2-D drawing that I completely forgot that you can do the same thing much more easily in the real three dimensional world by simply rolling and tilting the tool at the beginning part of the cut and avoid most of the swinging the handle side to side.

 

[Odie]

Duh ....... I just had major senior moment here! I got so fixated on how to depict how the cutting edge and wood meet in a 2-D drawing that I completely forgot that you can do the same thing much more easily in the real three dimensional world by simply rolling and tilting the tool at the beginning part of the cut and avoid most of the swinging the handle side to side.

Bill.....Even if you do tend to "overthink" once in awhile, I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates all the obvious extra effort you tend to put into your posts. It serves to make the rest of us think a little more broadly than we would have otherwise! 😎

ko

 

[john lucas]

Well it makes us think. that's a good thing. One thing I get out of teaching is trying to understand how to explain things. They are very easily misinterpreted in print which is why we all get so confused on these discussions.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill.....Even if you do tend to "overthink" once in awhile, I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates all the obvious extra effort you tend to put into your posts. It serves to make the rest of us think a little more broadly than we would have otherwise! 😎

ko

Well it makes us think. that's a good thing. One thing I get out of teaching is trying to understand how to explain things. They are very easily misinterpreted in print which is why we all get so confused on these discussions.

You guys are too kind. I was turning a yarn bowl today ... actually more like a hollowform or maybe a calabash style bowl with an opening just a little over three inches diameter and a maximum diameter of about six inches. While turning, the thought occurred to me that most of the things that I do somewhat subconsciously while my conscious thoughts were more concerned about steps down the road such as which tool should I use for cleaning up the interior curve and whether or not it would be foolish to stick my hand inside to sand the surface. Actually, I already knew it was foolish ... I was just debating whether I should do it anyway. 🙄 For larger hollow forms, I have a broom handle with a big ball of sandpaper on the end, but it was too large for this piece.

If I were to write down exactly how I turned the interior, how accurately would I recall things? Would it be what I intended to do or would it be what I actually did somewhat subconsciously? Also, I'll bet that my turning posture didn't always follow what I know to be good for my back as I frequently wanted to see what was going on inside.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Practice, practice....

I've tried to follow this thread, and watched this excellent video by Allan Batty several times (John L's too!), been practicing. Also heard a Henny Youngman quote that puts "failure with the skew" into perspective:

"If at first you don't succeed ... so much for skydiving."
​

With that in mind, we really shouldn't be so shy about learning the skew, don'tcha think?

 

[John K Jordan]

My friend, the skew

"If at first you don't succeed ... so much for skydiving."
​

With that in mind, we really shouldn't be so shy about learning the skew, don'tcha think?

There is no need to be shy!

When I teach beginners I always start out with the skew. It is the easiest to understand - a big flat bevel, a straight sharp edge. After we turn the blank round with a roughing gouge I have them hold the skew against the wood while I turn the lathe by hand. They can immediately see what is going on, what makes it not cut, cut too deeply, catch, and cut just right. They can see how a small adjustment changes the shaving. After a bit of this I turn the lathe on very slow and let them experiment a while. Then we turn the speed up and it's practice, practice, practice. When planing a cylinder is easy, we turn to cutting v-grooves which is more difficult. After a bunch of skew practice, we switch to the spindle gouge for beads and coves, beads and coves.

If you start with the skew it cannot intimidate! I think the trick is to somehow avoid getting big catches early and develop a nervousness and fear. I think the method of turning by hand goes a long way towards this. I also thing the proper stance and movement is even more important with the skew than with other tools. If you stand still and move a roughing gouge back and forth with your hands and arms, you might not get as smooth a cut. But if you try this with the skew, the presentation and angles can change and disaster is sudden. But with a consistent hold, moving the tool smoothly by using your legs, the angles and presentation can stay the same all the way down the wood and success is more likely.

When I learned to turn everyone told me to keep away from the evil skew. However, the experts in my books, Richard Raffan, Mike Darlow, etc. all used the skew! I told myself they were just people - if they could do it, I could learn. With stubbornness and practice and by following the instructions in the books the skew became one of my favorite tools. There is nothing better for making a smooth taper, facing off end grain, peeling away wood, or making a deep v-groove. I often use the skew for turning from square to round. I'm not as proficient as I'd like turning beads and coves but every time I make myself practice I get a little better. My favorite size is about 1/2" for small things which I make more often. I almost always turn the speed all the way up for spindles, except possibly for dealing with chatter on long, slender shafts.

One thing about practice. In one of my books (can't recall which one at the moment) the author recommended practicing with length of 2x2 pine. Make a cylinder, cut a series of v-groves, then turn beads on these. Then turn the beads into coves. Then plane off the coves and make a cylinder again and repeat. When this piece of wood is used up, repeat this on another piece of pine. When you have cut away 10 practices pieces, you will be an expert!!

Another thing about practice - when turning a cylinder down to size or into a taper, I like to make nearly every cut a practice cut and see how smooth I can make the surface. I sometimes experiment with tools with different grinds to see the difference. Even if my target is a long, thin taper, I may cut grooves, beads, etc. along the way. I do this with all tools, not just the skew and not just with spindles. This way you can discover exactly what works best under what circumstance and with what wood, before you need it. John Lucas wrote about this recently on another forum - we must think alike!

For those who have practiced a bit and are starting to get comfortable with the skew I recommend grinding a few skews in different ways, different angles, curved edge vs straight, hollow ground vs flat vs convex bevel, honed, polished, etc. I found that different grinds made a big difference. I keep one grind which is the most forgiving for beginners to start with. This skew is fairly wide and thicker than some, the edge is slightly rounded, and the angle is not as sharp as some of my other skews.

JKJ

 

[Barry Crowder]

skew as a learning tool

I really like your post, John K Jordan.

The skew seems to have this reputation for being difficult, but I took that as a challenge and have been practicing with it since I first got a lathe. Not that I'm claiming anything like the artisan that inspired this post, but I have definitely benefited from the practice. I think it's actually easier to learn about bevel control with a skew, which is straight (or nearly so) and fully visible than it is with a complex grind on a bowl gouge. I think the skew is a good tool for a beginner, but not just because it's harder. Rather, it's easier to see what you're doing.

Of course, it also provides "positive feedback" when you have a lapse of bevel support 🙁 Having said that, I've had my share of runback and catches with the skew, but the spindles tend to stay between centers. Comparable mistakes on a bowl with a bowl gouge have more serious implications, but the feedback is sometimes ambiguous. I MAY have some idea of what I did to send the bowl flying out of the chuck, but I think I always know what I did wrong with the skew.

 

[Jamie Straw]

+1 on the compliment to your post, John K., excellent. I've been practicing quite a bit this week, because there's a stopper I want to turn that is square in part of its profile (as in the picture below), so the pummel cut comes into play. That goal drew me back to Batty's video, which I originally found months ago. His presentation is so logical and so relaxed, really makes it seem doable. I checked the 3 skews I have and found their bevel angles to be a bit out of range, so am re-grinding. Aiming, for now, for a Lacer-style (1") at 40 degrees, and the two 1/2" skews straight with two different angles (perhaps 35 and 40). Feelin' the need for a 3/4" skew, but I've seen that many turners keep one that's >1" and heavy, so not sure where I'll spend that money.

 

[robo hippy]

I still dig it out and try, and I am willing to bet that most of my problem is with not having the properly sharpened edge on it. I get better cuts with my big ugly than I do with the skew.... Well some times, and when all else fails, I shear scrape...

robo hippy

 

[John K Jordan]

there's a stopper I want to turn that is square in part of its profile (as in the picture below), so the pummel cut comes into play.

View attachment 9476

Oh, I like that design. Is it yours? A spindle detail gouge with a fairly pointed nose would also work for that pommel cut. I would probably try both (on my practice cuts!)

I've turned a number of spindles with square sections, mostly "magic" wands (the magic is how many people want one!). The trick is getting the square blank centered correctly in the first place. Easier for me to turn between centers - I make small holes with a gimlet for the points to fit in. Harder to center by grabbing the square in a chuck since the jaws cut into the wood, my usual method for bottle stoppers:



I had more success maintaining alignment by turning a cylinder on the end of the blank between centers then fitting that into the chuck.

I have resorted to using a sanding block after the turning to adjust the flats. Is that cheating? 🙂

JKJ

 

[Jamie Straw]

Oh, I like that design. Is it yours?

Oh, you are too kind. Nope, it's from Woodturner's Catalog (projects -- wine stoppers)

A spindle detail gouge with a fairly pointed nose would also work for that pommel cut. I would probably try both (on my practice cuts!)

Shhhh, don't tell me that. This is supposed to demand a skew, so that I will practice, practice, practice.😀

I've turned a number of spindles with square sections, mostly "magic" wands (the magic is how many people want one!). The trick is getting the square blank centered correctly in the first place. Easier for me to turn between centers - I make small holes with a gimlet for the points to fit in. Harder to center by grabbing the square in a chuck since the jaws cut into the wood, my usual method for bottle stoppers:

I turn my stoppers (From SS Niles) using her mandrel. Regardless, yes -- I think the blank has to be perfectly square, and hole/mandrel perfectly centered to get that pummel thing just right.

I had more success maintaining alignment by turning a cylinder on the end of the blank between centers then fitting that into the chuck.

I have resorted to using a sanding block after the turning to adjust the flats. Is that cheating? 🙂

JKJ

I'll keep that approach in mind. What's life without a little cheating here and there?🙄

 

[John K Jordan]

I turn my stoppers (From SS Niles) using her mandrel.

I've had Ruth's mandrel for years but I have yet to use it. :-( I turn most small things like in the picture. I suspect even with the mandrel it would take care to get the alignment on the flats perfect every time. I realized I haven't made a bottle stopper for years. You have inspired me to try some ideas with flats, maybe even 3 corners or curved "flats".

BTW, you probably know this but others might not: when drilling holes in end grain, sometimes the drill bit will start to wander when starting the hole. To help get the bit started correctly I drill a starter hole with a machinists center drill. A set of these is pretty cheap. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004MOJVKU

JKJ

 

[Clifton C]

I like bowl turning

While I know the fellow in the video would have finished this project before lunch, I finished after lunch. I'm just not going to tell you which lunch or when I started...
This is the first turning project I've ever seen fit to name. I'm calling it "I like bowl turning"
1.25 X 37, 36, 34, 32. The 37 was supposed to be 38 but I couldn't fit it on my lathe so I had to cut off an inch. As it was, the headstock hung off one end by a bit, and the tailstock the other...
cc

 

[john lucas]

Very good job Clifton.

 

[John K Jordan]

This is the first turning project I've ever seen fit to name. I'm calling it "I like bowl turning"

That is funny! The highest number of identical things I've ever turned was two.

JKJ

 

[robo hippy]

Well, with all of the things I have turned, I probably have turned a number that could be called identical. It was purely by accident!

robo hippy

 

[Clifton C]

robo,
Identical on purpose but purely by luck.
Thats why the pic is a little out of focus and not a straight on shot...also counting on a coat of paint and maybe the few inches between when installed...
I'm grasping at straws...hoping when its all said and done it'll look ok...
All in all, it was a good exercise, but I think I learned my lesson...I like bowls...
cc

 

[Bill Boehme]

robo,
Identical on purpose but purely by luck.
Thats why the pic is a little out of focus and not a straight on shot...also counting on a coat of paint and maybe the few inches between when installed...
I'm grasping at straws...hoping when its all said and done it'll look ok...
All in all, it was a good exercise, but I think I learned my lesson...I like bowls...
cc

A table is a lot easier because you generally don't see more than one leg and even if you see more than one, they are far enough apart to hide most discrepancies. Another option is to claim creative license.

 

[Gretch Flo]

robo,
Identical on purpose but purely by luck.
Thats why the pic is a little out of focus and not a straight on shot...also counting on a coat of paint and maybe the few inches between when installed...
I'm grasping at straws...hoping when its all said and done it'll look ok...
All in all, it was a good exercise, but I think I learned my lesson...I like bowls...
cc

I hate trying to match and make the identical things. I too "I LIKE BOWLS"- I'm with you Clifton. Gretch