Sealing 3 year old wood and fresh green?

[Sam Fleisher]

I just cut some chunks out of a fairly big black walnut limb that has been down for 3 years.

Should that be sealed like green wood?

Also cut some green chunks from what a logger left recently so they do need sealed I know unless I finish turn them green.

The first pic at the back of the truck is the 3 year old stuff and the 5 or so pieces in the front are the green.

Sam

 

[robo hippy]

The older stuff I would seal as soon as you cut it. From my experience, if it has been sitting for a while, a fresh cut will want to crack almost immediately. That old walnut has some obvious ring shake also, I would split that off right away. The fresh stuff can sit for a bit without needing sealing. Spring sap should be raising now.

robo hippy

 

[Sam Fleisher]

The fresh isn't real fresh a month maybe 2 ago. I was hoping to let my back recover today but guess I'd better get out there and make some blanks .

 

[Sam Fleisher]

Ring shake is that pith coming out?

 

[Darryn Achall]

Shake in general is a crack running parallel to the tree grain instead of across the rings. It is separation between the growth rings. It can be caused by an issue with tree growth, by wind creating pressure in the tree, or by some types of bacteria.

 

[Brian Gustin]

Ring shake is that pith coming out?

In your photo of the walnut logs, the 2 most obvious are the middle left & right pieces - The circular cracking (it is further out than the pith) is ring shake - In some logs and woods, it isn't readily obvious and then for an inexperienced turner, can suddenly show up catastrophically on the lathe - a lot of times the piece is written off as cracking from drying, when it is actually just ring shake. That kind of cracking you will want to be careful about any pieces from the same tree, even if you don't immediately see the shake, it can be present in other areas of the log / tree that haven't been cut into yet - Just something to be aware of, but not necessarily a reason to toss it as firewood.

 

[Dave Landers]

As Brian said, the danger with ring shake is that it's sometimes not obvious. Something happened to the tree that year (insect, fire, drought, wind, etc) and that year's growth ring didn't bond with the previous year's. If you see somewhere, it's likely to affect that ring (year) throughout the whole tree or limb. And for some reason, if you find one ring with shake, there's often another.
It's particularly dangerous for us turners, as something like a bowl will have a growth ring run around a significant portion of the piece. If (when) it separates, some large percentage of your blank is going flying.
I've lost an entire tree's worth of wood before - the ring shake was positioned such that after removing it, I just didn't have anything worth keeping. A bummer, but the lost wood was still cheaper than my deductible at the emergency room.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

The first picture is definitely going in my buddies woodburner it was more towards the "Y" where they knocked this limb off with the track hoe 3 years ago. The next piece the center is out and the third pic is the rest of the same chunk. I stand to the side when turning so I'll probably chance it.

The diameter of these pieces were originally close to 2 foot I would guess. I should have taken a picture of the tree which is still standing and is immense. Has to be hollow I would guess.

It would be neat to know what happened to the tree back then. Would a limb like this be younger than the main tree or does it all grow together?

You guys got me going on the cracking when first cut when dry so I went out and unloaded them all and put sealer on the dry and green. This fat guy is going to sleep good tonight.

 

[Frank English]

Thank you for a great explanation of ring shake Dave Landers, especially marking the blocks. Always wondered what to look for.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

As Brian said, the danger with ring shake is that it's sometimes not obvious. Something happened to the tree that year (insect, fire, drought, wind, etc) and that year's growth ring didn't bond with the previous year's. If you see somewhere, it's likely to affect that ring (year) throughout the whole tree or limb. And for some reason, if you find one ring with shake, there's often another.
It's particularly dangerous for us turners, as something like a bowl will have a growth ring run around a significant portion of the piece. If (when) it separates, some large percentage of your blank is going flying.
I've lost an entire tree's worth of wood before - the ring shake was positioned such that after removing it, I just didn't have anything worth keeping. A bummer, but the lost wood was still cheaper than my deductible at the emergency room.
View attachment 50804

Do you think that since almost half of each chunk was exposed to the elements for three years because of the way this branch was broken from the main tree... Would ring shake other than the ones you marked be more likely to be visible if present?

 

[Brian Gustin]

Do you think that since almost half of each chunk was exposed to the elements for three years because of the way this branch was broken from the main tree... Would ring shake other than the ones you marked be more likely to be visible if present?

Well, Yes and No... Depends on where the shake is, and how the wood moves as it dries. Sometimes those separation lines can squeeze themselves back together to nearly invisible, until you start cutting away some wood and release the stress that was closing up the "crack" , and the cracks open back up... There's no sure-fire way to detect ring shake in any given piece , though with wood that has pronounced rings you can sometimes spot it by rubbing a little water across end grain and if there's ring shake cracking, water tends to wick through the crack (so you see a "split" in the wet surface, as well as often showing as a darker line) Usually you can hear or feel (Me, I'm deaf so I go by feel) when you start cutting into wood and ring shake starts to show up (could be as simple as some end grain that leaves fuzzies because it bends over since there's no support behind it... and it'd show up as a line that follows the tree rings) So, it's always good practice to stop and check your blank every so often as you are working it down - even for experienced pros (It becomes a habit)

 

[Bill Boehme]

Ring shake can also happen when a tree is felled if it hits uneven ground really hard.

In addition to the ring shake, there are some really bad radial cracks. They go much further than what is obvious. You might be able to use some of the wood for peppermills and similar things, but definitely not bowls. Standing out of the "line of fire" reduces your chance of getting hit by a piece of wood, but there is a possibility of a piece of wood flying off in any direction. A face shield doesn't give you much protection against large chunks of wood.

It never hurts to put Anchorseal on wood even if it appears to be bone dry. If it is really dry there probably won't be much to gain, but there isn't any downside to sealing the wood.

 

[Michael Anderson]

@Sam Fleisher here is a practical example of how ring shake can manifest in a turning:

You can see in the center how the wood is punky and not full connected between growth rings. there was no evidence on the outside of this blank; however, when I started turning the exterior, I noticed the shake. I used some CA glue to fill the shake separation, with not much hope of salvaging it; however, I wanted to see what would happen. The safest approach was to turn very thin with very light passes, but when I got to the center, the shake ended up winning! I peeled off the outer section in two pieces and glued together. Kind of neat, eh? Beyond that, it shows the real danger of shake, and how it is totally different than other types of cracks. Here is a quick youtube video showing me separating the pieces (sorry for the vertical video!):

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fgQJPzCHq6A

 

[robo hippy]

Now, that you know it was there, look more closely at the piece. You will see some discoloration that is slightly different from the rest of the wood.

robo hippy

 

[Michael Anderson]

You will see some discoloration that is slightly different from the rest of the wood

Yep, absolutely right.