I'm a newbie to turning....so I need some help before I burn my bowl!!!...I power sand my work, but I keep getting sanding rings or swirls when I finish with friction polish. I have taken the piece back down to natural wood and tried lemon wax but still the swirls!!!, I start with 60 or 80 grit then move on to 100,120,220, 320 and 400. The I have tried 800 and up and I have tried different grades of steel wool...In between each grit I hand sand with the grain but still I end up with those ?>@$##😕😕😕😕 swirls....help please!!!!
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Sanding/Finishing help
- Thread starter Orville
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Just a guess. - the swirls are more likely from the finish application than from the sanding
Drag marks are a common problem with lathe applied finishes.
Most native hardwoods will not show any surface improvement beyond 320 grit.
Slow lathe speed fast sanding disc rotation.
Use new discs. A steady stream of sanding dust should be visible coming off the disc.
If you don't see the stream of sanding dust the paper is not working
If finish off the lathe. Waterlox is my most used finish for bowls
Wipe on! Wipe off excess so it doesn't leave a gummy puddle, dry over night sand with 400
Apply next coat, wipe off dry over night cut back with 0000 scotch bite
Repeat coats until it is what I want.
Have in,
Al
Drag marks are a common problem with lathe applied finishes.
Most native hardwoods will not show any surface improvement beyond 320 grit.
Slow lathe speed fast sanding disc rotation.
Use new discs. A steady stream of sanding dust should be visible coming off the disc.
If you don't see the stream of sanding dust the paper is not working
If finish off the lathe. Waterlox is my most used finish for bowls
Wipe on! Wipe off excess so it doesn't leave a gummy puddle, dry over night sand with 400
Apply next coat, wipe off dry over night cut back with 0000 scotch bite
Repeat coats until it is what I want.
Have in,
Al
Orville,
When power sanding, you should, as Al stated, slow the lathe and run your drill/etc. fast. You will also be more effective on the bowl surface if you maintain the contract point of the disc such that the abrasive is moving at 90° to the swirls. That way the fibers are supported and the abrasive will slice them off. Also be sure to work through your grits. If you're still having trouble, try applying a spit coat of dewaxed shellac as a sanding sealer; just remember to allow it to dry thoroughly before applying the abrasives.
To add to what Al and Mark have said. I only go to 320 grit. At 220 I let the disc ride a bit on the work without power and 320 also. I try to look for swirl marks in between grits. But my eyes are not getting any younger. So I get the work damp after 320 grit to raise grain. Its not 100% foolproof but pretty close. If you missed sanding out that 60 or 80 it will show up. Any swirl marks will also. so if its not the finish this will tell you pretty quick. Dont waste your time hand sanding under 220. Depending on what grain raises use your best judgement as to what grit to go back to. I keep a soft pad with a 220 on one side and 320 on the other. In most of my cases after the grain is raised the 320 in both forward and reverse take care of it. Concentric scratch marks from fine sandpaper look much better than swirl marks of any grit . To me anyway. Move the paper back and forth as you do it. It wont leave deep dig marks but still looks very concentric. Even 320 held in one spot will grab and leave what I think are pretty deep marks. If these answers do not help ask more questions.
Orville,
I agree with Al and Mark but I find you don't have to run the drill fast. Around maybe 400 rpm to 500 rpm is fine with the lathe speed from 50 rpm to 400 rpm. You may have just missed it but you have a pretty good jump from 120 to 220. You should try adding 180 in there. Some say go no more than 1/2 plus the grit in your jump (example 120 grit plus 1/2 (60) equals 180). I found that if you have a reverse on your lathe that it helps when sanding. Sand in the forward direction then blow off your disk and the piece and do a quick hit in reverse (and no the piece/chuck will not unscrew itself from the lathe). One other note that I picked up from a sanding vendor is switch to a soft backing pad at 180 or 220 and finish the piece with the soft pad. Dampening the piece with water or DNA (let dry) also helps at around the 180 or 220 grit level.
If you really want some good advice contact Vince at woodnwonders or Steve Worchester. I have spoke with Vince at length about sanding and I understand that Steve is also very good to talk with. I know Vince is a good guy and I hear Steve is also.
I agree with Al and Mark but I find you don't have to run the drill fast. Around maybe 400 rpm to 500 rpm is fine with the lathe speed from 50 rpm to 400 rpm. You may have just missed it but you have a pretty good jump from 120 to 220. You should try adding 180 in there. Some say go no more than 1/2 plus the grit in your jump (example 120 grit plus 1/2 (60) equals 180). I found that if you have a reverse on your lathe that it helps when sanding. Sand in the forward direction then blow off your disk and the piece and do a quick hit in reverse (and no the piece/chuck will not unscrew itself from the lathe). One other note that I picked up from a sanding vendor is switch to a soft backing pad at 180 or 220 and finish the piece with the soft pad. Dampening the piece with water or DNA (let dry) also helps at around the 180 or 220 grit level.
If you really want some good advice contact Vince at woodnwonders or Steve Worchester. I have spoke with Vince at length about sanding and I understand that Steve is also very good to talk with. I know Vince is a good guy and I hear Steve is also.
Some woods sand beautifully some are really buggers. I found a couple of compounds at Ace made by Hansen. The first is a polishing compound and the other is a burnishing compound. I'm pretty sure that the mix is pumice on the polish and rottenstone on the burnishing. Both are blended with orange oil. If I am seeing swirls after 320, I use the polishing Compound with a burgandy Scotchbrite (320), wipe off the residue and then apply the burnishing with a gray scotchbrite (600). Wipe it clean with a towel and then use a dry gold Scotchbrite (1200).
Try it you might like it.
I have never had problems with finishes being affected by the products.
Vince carries the Scothbrite products.
Try it you might like it.
I have never had problems with finishes being affected by the products.
Vince carries the Scothbrite products.
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Sand along the grain, by hand at 320. That blends the scratches with the flow of the pattern rather than highlighting cuts across it. I like to set the fuzz with water before the final, and am not embarrassed at all to make it the semi-final sanding if it's required.
Other thing which might help is less pressure, which is a double-killer because it kicks out loose pieces of grit and grinds them full depth into the surface as it heats and burnishes that surface. You can end up with a deep scratch against a shiny background. Break the case-hardening with a water standup, repeat your grit with minimum pressure, and move along. Make sure you're making dust at all times. If not, you've got spent paper or you're holding so much into the work that you're burnishing with sawdust. One reason I prefer to sand bottom out, bottom of the disk on bowls. It clears the dust to the larger diameter and ejects better. If I keep pushing it into a smaller space ....
Other thing which might help is less pressure, which is a double-killer because it kicks out loose pieces of grit and grinds them full depth into the surface as it heats and burnishes that surface. You can end up with a deep scratch against a shiny background. Break the case-hardening with a water standup, repeat your grit with minimum pressure, and move along. Make sure you're making dust at all times. If not, you've got spent paper or you're holding so much into the work that you're burnishing with sawdust. One reason I prefer to sand bottom out, bottom of the disk on bowls. It clears the dust to the larger diameter and ejects better. If I keep pushing it into a smaller space ....
Sanding marks
I too have trouble with sanding. I use magnification and still have some swirls show up later. Drives me nuts
I use sanding sealer -am now using the sanding sealer you fellas recommended (shellac/alcohol) rather than Mylands SS which is thicker. Just what is "dry enuf"???? Am I making swirls in the sealer????
Sometimes I think I have marred the finish as well ( Danish oil). I usually go to 400 (sometimes 600) . Lately this is by hand going with the grain before the DO.woods with alot of figure is problematic as the grain is goiing every which way.
I use Klingspor's nonwoven pads on the finish(I assume like the scotch brite) Somewhere I read the gray (ultrafine) was 1200,(similar to 0000 steel wool but I see in the catelog and on the pkg in the basement there is no "grit" mentioned.) I see this is diff from CaptJim's grit equivalents
Another problem I have discovered in handsanding small areas at the bottom of small bowls ("baby bowls" ) is an mark that I have diagnosed as a fingernail mark. ( I have a bent 3rd finger) and I use a foam pad under cloth backed 1" strips.)
With power sanding, I sand from the bottom outward toward 9 o'clock. In nat edged bowls I often sand with the lathe off. I sometimes think the occasional mark is from the pad. On the outside of nat edged bowls I can see when the discs make swirls and use circular motions with the drill to "erase" them" I have trimmed the edges of most discs (most are the soft type ) so the sandpaper is a little larger. I this ok???? To mimic some sandpaper discs that comes oversized.
Woods easy to sand are oak, ash, cherry burl, maple. Woods that are a pain are red cedar, black walnut, some Mt ash, and apple/crab apple. AM I BEING TOO PICKY USING MAGNIFICATION AND SEEING THE SMALL STUFF?????? With my regular glasses with the light just right I can see some marks on some of the stuff. I want them perfect!!!!! Sorry for the ramble Gretch
I too have trouble with sanding. I use magnification and still have some swirls show up later. Drives me nuts
I use sanding sealer -am now using the sanding sealer you fellas recommended (shellac/alcohol) rather than Mylands SS which is thicker. Just what is "dry enuf"???? Am I making swirls in the sealer????
Sometimes I think I have marred the finish as well ( Danish oil). I usually go to 400 (sometimes 600) . Lately this is by hand going with the grain before the DO.woods with alot of figure is problematic as the grain is goiing every which way.
I use Klingspor's nonwoven pads on the finish(I assume like the scotch brite) Somewhere I read the gray (ultrafine) was 1200,(similar to 0000 steel wool but I see in the catelog and on the pkg in the basement there is no "grit" mentioned.) I see this is diff from CaptJim's grit equivalents
Another problem I have discovered in handsanding small areas at the bottom of small bowls ("baby bowls" ) is an mark that I have diagnosed as a fingernail mark. ( I have a bent 3rd finger) and I use a foam pad under cloth backed 1" strips.)
With power sanding, I sand from the bottom outward toward 9 o'clock. In nat edged bowls I often sand with the lathe off. I sometimes think the occasional mark is from the pad. On the outside of nat edged bowls I can see when the discs make swirls and use circular motions with the drill to "erase" them" I have trimmed the edges of most discs (most are the soft type ) so the sandpaper is a little larger. I this ok???? To mimic some sandpaper discs that comes oversized.
Woods easy to sand are oak, ash, cherry burl, maple. Woods that are a pain are red cedar, black walnut, some Mt ash, and apple/crab apple. AM I BEING TOO PICKY USING MAGNIFICATION AND SEEING THE SMALL STUFF?????? With my regular glasses with the light just right I can see some marks on some of the stuff. I want them perfect!!!!! Sorry for the ramble Gretch
Hiya Gretch........
I'll let some of the others address your other questions, and I'll concentrate on this portion of your post.
The short answer......yes, I think you're being too picky by using magnification. The end user won't be using magnification to inspect your bowl, so if you need magnification to see a flaw, you're worrying about something that will be a non-issue because they'll never see it.
If you miss a scratch that needs attention, you'll be able to see it with your regular prescription glasses.......(I wear trifocals). Make sure you revolve your turning a complete 360 degrees while inspecting, because quite often a small scratch isn't visible until the light hits the problem spot at a different angle.
Often times, the cure isn't to double-down on the grit you are currently using, but to backtrack one or two grits and work up to the current grit again. Sometimes this backtrack need not be done under power, but one little spot can often times be smoothed out with a little hand sanding, with the grain and power off. It's really pretty easy to eliminate one little problem area by hand. If, however, the problem goes a good distance around the circumference, or interior, the backtrack may need to be done under power.
Yes, I know full well that it's really hard to break down and make the decision to backtrack one or two grits. Especially when it seems you've worked so hard and long to work up to the current grit......but, it sure beats the heck out of trying to remove a scratch that should have been eliminated with a coarser grit than you're currently on.......It can be done, but, that's a really tough way to do it.....time consuming, too! 😉
ooc
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Steve Worcester
Admin Emeritus
The marks from 120 won't get taken out by 220, add 180. Send me and address and a size and I'll send you some to see if that works.
I go 80,120,180,240,320, not as big of a difference int he grit numbers that way
I go 80,120,180,240,320, not as big of a difference int he grit numbers that way
Correct the name of the compounds to Howard's
sanding sealer
I too am struggling with how and how much to sand, and have been experimenting with Deft thinned about 50% as a sanding sealer. Brush it on, let sit 5 or 10 mins, buff off with a rag and the lathe running. I'm kinda liking the soft sheen that results, and I find that if I let it dry an hour and then re-sand with 280 and/or 320 and repeat with a second coat of dilute Deft, I'm done. Or maybe I'm done. Or maybe I just think I'm done. Dusty trifocals can let a lot of sins slide past un-noticed.
I've got the double handicap of owning, from a defunct business, 100-sheet sheafs of each grit in cabinetmaker's garnet sandpaper. So I feel like I have to use it up before I can buy any of the new Abranet mesh-type papers I see recommended here.
I too am struggling with how and how much to sand, and have been experimenting with Deft thinned about 50% as a sanding sealer. Brush it on, let sit 5 or 10 mins, buff off with a rag and the lathe running. I'm kinda liking the soft sheen that results, and I find that if I let it dry an hour and then re-sand with 280 and/or 320 and repeat with a second coat of dilute Deft, I'm done. Or maybe I'm done. Or maybe I just think I'm done. Dusty trifocals can let a lot of sins slide past un-noticed.
I've got the double handicap of owning, from a defunct business, 100-sheet sheafs of each grit in cabinetmaker's garnet sandpaper. So I feel like I have to use it up before I can buy any of the new Abranet mesh-type papers I see recommended here.
One bit of advice not yet mentioned is lighting and glasses. If your vision is getting fuzzy, then you will have trouble seeing scratches that are left from the previous grit. Cheap reading glasses are better than nothing, and prescription are way better.
If your lighting is not good, you will also not be able to see the scratches. Ever take a finished piece out into direct sunlight to look at it? Can be pretty scary. I have been using a natural spectrum light from Blue Max, and Ott lights are similar. All the quilters and needle point people know about them. They emit a spectrum that our eyes have evolved to see in, which most other lights do not. Huge difference.
robo hippy
If your lighting is not good, you will also not be able to see the scratches. Ever take a finished piece out into direct sunlight to look at it? Can be pretty scary. I have been using a natural spectrum light from Blue Max, and Ott lights are similar. All the quilters and needle point people know about them. They emit a spectrum that our eyes have evolved to see in, which most other lights do not. Huge difference.
robo hippy
Where do you get them????? I use regular lights, and LED flash lites, and recently a craft light (not that good) that has a magnifying glass in it. Gretch
After reading the FAQ on the bluemax site, I'm feeling a little skeptical......seems like a lot of "fluff" in the wording that could be an attempt to overwhelm the customer into a purchase that might not live up to the expectations......
I see comparisons of the bluemax against standard fluorescent lighting, and incandescent lighting, but not against the combination of the two.
When I was a serious art student at a private school of oil painting, I was taught that the best source of artificial lighting that favorably compares to natural sunlight, is a combination of florescent and incandescent lighting. We commonly see lamps marketed for artist's use that have an incandescent lamp surrounded by a circular fluorescent lamp. I have used one of these for many years while pursuing my other artistic interests.
For use on my lathe, I have basically used the same concept.
There are two 4' fluorescent bulbs about a foot over head level and directly above the lathe headstock. I also have two incandescent bulbs that provide light from two different directions, or sweep, and are adjustable.
My personal feelings about the light available to me at the lathe, is that my lighting isn't handicapping my ability to see the quality of surface on a turned object.........however, I've not tried the Bluemax, so, I have no way to make an actual comparison without actually buying one for a hundred bucks.......and, there is just too many claims of superior performance of this and that, for me to buy everything that is marketed by these claims.......
Since I'm not feeling my "system" of multiple lamps is inadequate, I won't be buying the Bluemax lamp for a "test drive".........but........we'll see how the public acceptance of this kind of lighting plays out in the long run........
I could change my mind.......just not ready to spend the money quite yet.
ooc
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I have been using these for about 2 years now. I will have them in my booth in San Jose. The over head lights do not show as well as the up close ones. I don't know how to compare the technical aspects like 'Lumens', spectrums, and all the other terms used, but they do make a difference. A bit spendy, and you can use the less wattage ones I guess, but worth it.
http://www.bluemaxlighting.com/bluemax_floor_lamps_28_ctg.htm
robo hippy
http://www.bluemaxlighting.com/bluemax_floor_lamps_28_ctg.htm
robo hippy
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Not to mention that standard and the "new" tubes come in various light temperatures anyway. Or, most important, that a focused, intense beam shining obliquely across the surface will give you the best chance of discovering surface irregularities.
Same idea as looking for a small item dropped on the carpet or floor. Get down and look tangentially to floor. Gretch
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Or, as we grandparents have re-learned, get on your knees to look for lost items, so your eyes are at the same level as theirs!
When you take it into direct sun light, you don't have a focused intense beam shining obliquely across the surface, but things are much clearer...
Getting down on my knees isn't the problem, getting back up is.
robo hippy
Getting down on my knees isn't the problem, getting back up is.
robo hippy
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Should be a slash between focused/intense. Sunlight is VERY intense, and I'll bet you tilt the bowl to angle it across, not look parallel to the surface.