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Sanding choices

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Aug 25, 2005
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With many types of sandpaper, all said by their makers to be the "best and the greatest", it is hard to know where to turn. For example there is: New Wave, 3M sheets, Turners Sanding Pack, Hi-per Green round or wave, White Rhyno, Hi-per Gold round or wave, 3M ceramic PSA, Sanding Sponges,......... And, then there is hand sanding vs power sanding, wet sanding, dry sanding, micromesh..... And then Hook and Loop holders, Pro velcro disk holders, velcro disk hand holders, flex edge system, ...... In the classes I have taken and the book I have read, different "systems" are suggested. I am sure I am not the only turner suffering from too many choices! What do you all, who are the real experienced turners, suggest are the best products and procedures?

Ron
 
For grits up to 120 (which some of you pros don't ever even need) I almost exclusively used Belt sander belts. There is absolutely no comparison, so far as I've seen, in ability to remove stock without wearing out, resistant to heat, water, etc.... I use Mirka belts. We tend to have a few that shred while in use on the belt sander (handheld Porter Cable) so there's always shrapnel of each grit laying around.

Over 120 I use Mirka's "FineFlex". Gray/silver looking, and has superb cutting and lasting time. I'll also use unuseable random-orbit sanding pads that have lost their fabric flocking on the back. They're Mirka as well (come to think of it, our two main suppliers only carry Mirka, I hadn't noticed that until now).

3M Wet/dry sandpaper is good as well.
 
Don't forget to add the new Norton 3X sandpaper. So far I have had good life with using it handheld.

JimQ
 
This might be a truism, but the best system seems to be the first one that you try that works for you and gives the desired results. Sort of like finding something in the last place you look.

For example, Norton's 3X sandpaper was mentioned, but I found 3M's Sandblaster sandpaper first, so that's what I use. (As far as I can tell the two products are comparable.)
 
Redfish said:
For grits up to 120 (which some of you pros don't ever even need) I almost exclusively used Belt sander belts.

I know a number of pros, including myself, who start at 80 grit on faceplate turnings, 120 on spindle turnings. One of my best friends, who is a very accomplished turner and sells a lot of very expensive stuff starts as low as 60 grit if he thinks the situation warrants it. I suppose I could start at 220 grit for the privilege of saying so, but it isn't going to get my bowl sanded any faster, and fast is what I want, especially when it comes to sanding! 😀

As far as recommendations go, I usually use Klingspor for my hand sanding paper. For power sanding I have been buying disks from Royce in Canada.

Bill
 
I won't go into product recommendations 'cause I would get myself in trouble.



It would be difficult to make a full explanation without going into what would turn out to be a full magazine article. Most people will try a few different systems and stick with what works for them based on economics or availability.

As you have seen, there are a bunch of different products out there, with mostly the same intended end result - to make fine cuts on the wood and smooth out the surface in some form or fashion. From there you could break up the rest into categories of hand and power sanding. And then have to dive into each by itself.
What works for each individual may be different than what you need, but just like turning techniques, there really isn't a wrong way, just some that are safer than others.
My personal suggestion is if you want to try power sanding, buy or make a 2" mandrel (the things that holds the paper)and use a drill that you have laying around (assuming you have one). I used a Dewalt 12V cordless for years and it worked great .


I usually suggest 2" discs for anyone who is working in wood (faceplate work like bowls) under 12"-14". They cost less and the sandpaper costs less. A 3" won't always allow you to get into the inside edges of bowls and such because the curve isn't open enough for that large of a pad. Sure, you can buy 2" and 3", but for costs sake, 2" only is going to be the economic way to go.

As far as the product (sand paper), all sandpaper is not the same, and quality of the products vary greatly. The are going to differ in their intended use, ability to stand up to the heat of power sanding, flexibility, backing, type of fabric for hook and loop, types of glue used to hold the paper to the fabric, type of grit, the bonding process to hold the grit to the paper, you get the idea.

I prefer a flexible backing, because it is less likely to dig in and less likely to cut into the corners if you are sanding up against detailed edges of a bowls foot for example. In addition, if the product is flexible enough that when "crinkled" the abrasive grit doesn't come off the paper, when you get a catch, you can just flatten it out and start again. If the grit comes off when wrinkles, you have to throw it away because the uneven edge is going to leave marks on the wood when you sand. These properties are most important above 180 grit. Under 180, usually wood removal and the ability to clean the paper are the most important properties.

After all, if the paper clogs up and you can't clean it, you have to toss it and use another one.

The mandrels, or pads, are going to vary mostly in the build structure and the type of foam they use. A stiff foam will not conform to the bowls edges either (this is why a power lock system doesn't work well for me). The intent of power sanding is to keep the shape and detail you worked hard to cut with a gouge and remove wood evenly throughout that shape. The intent is not to use the sandpaper to reshape the bowl. Although that approach works well for texturing and carving.

Remember that heat is your enemy here. Too much heat build up, caused by too fast of rotational speed on the wood or the drill running too fast, will melt the fingers of the hook and loop, as well as cook the wood on the disk into the disk, making it hard to clean. It will over-dry dry woods , crack exotics, and dry wet woods too quickly, causing unnecessary warpage.

In addition, regardless of what system you use, don't skip grits. The idea is for you to start with and go through each grit, so that each successive grit removes the marks from the previous. Skipping will make you actually work harder to accomplish that.



(I guess I wrote most of the article)



 
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I've found that purchasing Rhynogrip in sheets from Industrial Abrasives to be a good way to go. You can cut it up to size for power or hand sanding and it ends up being pretty inexpensive if you purchase in job lots for you and friends. They also give a great club rate on bulk purchases. Also, you don't have to cut the paper into nice little circles. Square patches work quite well for power sanding. Kinda like homemade ripple discs.

the 3M and Norton high performance papers you can get from any hardware store work very well also.

Two other quick bits: The old maxim to use sandpaper like someone else is paying for it is a good one. Sandpaper dulls and chips just like any other cutting tool. Repeated reuses end up with scratches and burnishing rather than clean cutting. I rarely clean my paper more than once before discarding it (though I'll clean it several times if I'm in a supply pinch).

Second, when getting rid of tearout, I've found it very helpful to heavilly lubricate the patches of tearout with paste wax in between sandings or cuts. This seems to drastically reduce continued tearing. My guess is that it lubricates the wood fibers so that the tool or sandpaper tends to cut or slide over, not grab and pull. By the way, I don't wait for the wax to dry, I just gob it on and go for it.

Good luck,
Dietrich
 
I gt my sandpaper from Steve, holds up ell, price is fair and the service is great.

80 through 180 I Power sand with the cordless drill
180 through 400 I use a small 2 inch DA sander.
 
I like to sand with power on both the lathe and mandrel. I love the power lock system because it has a good resin on resin bond to keep the grit where it belongs, and I don't have to press and build heat for it to work properly. Of course the way I use it, favoring the center of the disk on convex surfaces and the edge on concave means I can re-use it often, and pitch the disk on the shelf without worries that velcro will pick up shavings or chips before I use it again, because it has the locking disconnect. If I do press a bit, there are no plastic hooks to melt.

As to it being inferior in following shapes, I'm puzzled at Steve's difficulty. If no more of the paper is in contact with the work than the width of the bevel that cut it, there's no problem sanding at 3:00 or 9:00 o'clock, and with a 1" radius, sanding at 12:00 will get you into most places a bowl needs sanding, unless it's cut at less than a 1" radius. Further, they make a flexible edge version with the same easy-swap, easy-store characteristics which is great for working in confined spaces, and can be given a "set" to the shape to slide back under the rim of a passing bowl or down to the bottom of a shallow-curve goblet.

The greater rigidity is your friend when you use it to avoid pressing into the work. It's less likely to follow soft spots, serving as if it were a rotating scraper. It heats much less because you don't have to press, and that's the key to greater paper life. I've recently begun using it at 240, rather than transitioning to velcro, but that's as low as I would go. At or about 220 you're removing so little that micro versus macro sanding assumes greater importance. You want to follow the nuances of the grain, for which flexible paper seems better suited. Whatever that green stuff at Packard is, it just hangs in forever. Once again, I don't press, nor do I use passive sanders that rely on friction with the piece.

I'd like to suggest a revision of that oft-repeated "don't skip a grit" phrase. Makes no sense at all, when you consider what you really want to say is that it will take longer to remove the marks from one grit with another if you have too great a difference in the numbers. Of course, the manufacturers help us out by making papers in their own series 80/100/120/150/240/320 for my Power Lock system, where I regularly "skip" 120 if I use 100, and 80/100/120/180/220/320 for the hook and loop I stock, where the 180 or 220 is regularly skipped, depending on where I start. Of course, they may be in different grit systems for all I know, so the 120 hard back may not be the same as the 120 soft.

If you find it's taking too long or building up too much heat to remove the scratches from one grit with another, find and use an intermediate number.

Two other points to ponder on power sanding. You're not limited in the direction you can sand, because you have a rotating piece and a rotating paper. This means you can sand across 12:00 to get rid of tool ridges, instead of at 9:00, where it'd take forever, heat you and the paper, and likely result in an undulating surface at the end. Same applies for the next grit, except if you finished sanding more or less at 9:00, your scratches will closely resemble the tool ridges, only on a smaller scale. I find this change of sanding directions with each grit speeds the process nicely.

Second, you're going to make a lot of dust, and there's no way you want to chew it twice, so on inside sanding, where the dust wants to fling out at the rim, give it a hand by not sanding inward at 9:00 or 12:00. Resanding packs the grit, heats the paper and the piece, so try to avoid it by lifting, wiping, and choosing your directions to favor sanding into the cleaner surface.
 
I too use the PowerLoc disk. I found after they were suggested that they work great on spalted wood where the density varies and the soft pads would leave a lumpy surface removing more soft fiber when present.

This is good information on sanding position and direction. We think about tool angle of attack and pressure and frequently ignore the same with the sanding gouge.
 
Power Lock?

M-M, Guess I am missing out on something. What is this Powerlock system?
Power sanding is great but I seem to be on a bad streak of losing the gripping capability of the velcro on the sanding pads! Those with good gripping seem to seperate at the glue line and those with poor grippng at the velcro itself. Perhaps I am not buying the quality pads I need. Who uses what? (I have not tried Steve's pads - -shame on me.) Phil
 
pfduffy said:
M-M, Guess I am missing out on something. What is this Powerlock system?

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...reen=CTGY&Category_Code=snding-cstarter-power

Or your favorite merchant. These people drawl cute and provide good service. As I said, no backing to overheat if you press, though why would you, remount capability second to none, even if you drop it in the shavings, and available in fully supported or flex edge varieties.

I figure with the average bowl going for fifty bucks, whether I spend a buck or just thirty cents to sand it isn't going to make a lot of difference overall. Maybe a hundred a year. I donate far more than that to charity auctions.

If you make an order with Packard, consider a test pack of http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=snding-adiscs-higre for your hook and loop sanding. Grit is still there and still cutting when the backing flops over on its own after you remove it from the mandrel. You almost have to put a stake through it to kill it.
 
pfduffy said:
Power sanding is great but I seem to be on a bad streak of losing the gripping capability of the velcro on the sanding pads! Those with good gripping seem to seperate at the glue line and those with poor grippng at the velcro itself.
Some of the candidates are

Velcro separating at the rubber - this is caused by the manaufacturer using a poor adhesive to glue the velcro on. Use solvent based contact cement to glue it back on.

Velcro not gripping - causes- dirty backing on the sandpaper , blow them off with air,
OR melted velcro from
too much heat buildup from sanding
poor quality velcro
or the sandpaper came flying off and you continued to sand the wood with the velcro. The velcro is indeed replaceable, and I wrote a quick article on how to do it
 
I have also found that different manufacturers of popular sanding pads use different velcro. Therefore, some popular sand paper disks will not fit on all types of pads. For example, the wave type disks will not fit on the sanding pad I purchased for my round disks.


Ron
 
I use ca glue and its accellerent to re-glue the velcro and damaged foam. Unfortunately, I have had a couple pads seperate when the foam hit my chuck. (Guess that's way better than my knuckle). I wish some enterprising sandpaper merchant.... would sell a replacement pad of foam and velcro... you know, slice off the old and glue on the new, then back to work.

Ron
 
Ron,
Your question is right on the money and one that I contemplate often. I have been turning for a few years know and I do not have a global answer to your question. What I use today is 6" sheet that I cut/stamp 2" and 3" inch sanding pads out. I get 50 sheets for about 18-19 dollars. I get 2 three inch pads and one two inch pad per sheet. Or I can get 5 two inch pads depending on how I cut them. That breaks the paper cost to what...18-19cent for the 3 inch and 13 cents to the 2 inch. I am thinking about going with Steve W. paper the next time I order which is 15.00 for 50 sheets which is 30 cents a sheet. More expensive but I will see how that paper lasts. I can tell you that my frustration has gone down by not hanging on to worn paper but rather throwing it out and going with a fresh sheet when needed. Good question and great responses.
 
Vince, I am glad I am not the only one who is wondering what is best. If there was one perfect paper, it would be well known to all turners. It seems there is no perfect solution. Each paper and pad combination seems to have its advocates. Guess I'll keep on trying the many options available.... For small items I am almost totally hand sanding and I am more and more inclined to hand sand whenever I can. It seems effective and is certainly less expensive. The 3M sheets do a great job. But the 80 grit power gouge is nice when it is needed!

Ron
 
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