Safety session at the 2012 AAW Symposium

[hockenbery]

I am associated with planning a session on safety for the 2012 AAW Symposium in San Jose which we began last June in St Paul.
IThere has been a lot of meaningful and heartfelt posts on safety in forum this week.

It seems to me safety falls into two categories
Processes and protective

Process is doing things in manner that minimizes risk. Making proper cuts on well mounted work is less risky than making catches on work held with a sloppy chuck tenon.

Protective is the face shield and helmet to mitigate harm when the catch pulls the piece out of the chuck or when the wood comes apart from an annunciation seen defect.

If you have ideas for key points and scope to cover you can share them here or by email

Al@woodturner.org.

Thanks,
Al

 

[John Lawson]

Don’t forget environmentals also: Dust masks, dust collection, awareness of allergens in some woods, poisonous fumes from finishes.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Don’t forget environmentals also: Dust masks, dust collection, awareness of allergens in some woods, poisonous fumes from finishes.

I think that would be part of protective, but I do like the thought about fumes and VOCs that we often don't consider when thinking about safety.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I believe it was in Richmond where they had a rotation on safety and the room had like a hundred chairs, myself and three other people attended. I think that the AAW could better serve its members by putting together a comprehensive safety presentation like Power Point that could be given to the various clubs that would fill in a meeting. Clubs are always looking for meeting material and this would be a way to get maximum coverage on the safety subject.
Bill

 

[Gynia]

I believe it was in Richmond where they had a rotation on safety and the room had like a hundred chairs, myself and three other people attended.
Bill

The AAW is committed to educating it's members on the dangers of the woodturning activity. They need to have rotations at the symposium for safety. They need to encourage big names to host these safety rotations. A panel with Jack V., Michel H., Molly W., Stewart M., should draw a fair sized crowd and insure the rotation was talked about.

I mention Stewart M. because I saw him at a rotation in RI where he operated a full sized Arbortech grinder with one hand on the grinder and one hand on the lathe hand wheel as he roughed in the spirals of his open spiral hollow form. Stewart does some seemingly dangerous things with a good deal of confidence.

Finding a way to make safety sexy is a challenge. Perhaps launching spinning hunks of wood as visual aids would help. Asking plastic surgeons talk about reconstructive surgery might add interest.

 

[George Clark]

Practice what you preach. Require all demonstrators to follow your safety rules. Students are much more likely to do what they're shown rather than what they're told. Stop presenting a mixed message. If you are really serious about promoting safety, then "I'm only doing this to clarify the demo" or "the mic works better without the face shield for the demo" are simply unacceptable excuses. All safety equipment causes a restriction of some sort. Get used to it.

In NASCAR, the death of the man who refused to wear a full face helmet, because it restricted his vision, did more to promote the proper use of safety equipment and safety innovation than any other single event. I hope we don't have to kill one of the "big guys" in woodtuning to get demonstrators to use face shields, although I personally suspect it may have happened already.

George.

 

[robo hippy]

There are a lot of turning practices that I use that would be dangerous for a beginner, but not for a pro. I do use the phrase "Professional driver on closed course. DO NOT ATTEMPT" fairly often. I do like to use variable speed to turn the lathe way down and show catches in slow motion. There are so many variables, so many tools, so many situations, it is difficult to prepare for all the eventualities.

robo hippy

 

[George Clark]

I do use the phrase "Professional driver on closed course. DO NOT ATTEMPT" fairly often.

robo hippy

If I'm not supposed to do it, why are you wasting my time showing me how?

George

 

[Keith T.]

bandsaw safety

HI Al, I would be willing to give a demonstration on bandsaw safety, if you feel it would be feasible. My article on bandsaw safety in the recent issue of the AAW magazine was well received, and would benefit many turners both new and seasoned. I have not yet applied to demonstrate in 2012, but would gladly do so if encouraged. Any thoughts by fellow members would be appreciated.

 

[Keith T.]

Practice what you preach. Require all demonstrators to follow your safety rules. Students are much more likely to do what they're shown rather than what they're told. Stop presenting a mixed message. If you are really serious about promoting safety, then "I'm only doing this to clarify the demo" or "the mic works better without the face shield for the demo" are simply unacceptable excuses. All safety equipment causes a restriction of some sort. Get used to it.

In NASCAR, the death of the man who refused to wear a full face helmet, because it restricted his vision, did more to promote the proper use of safety equipment and safety innovation than any other single event. I hope we don't have to kill one of the "big guys" in woodtuning to get demonstrators to use face shields, although I personally suspect it may have happened already.

George.

George, I strongly believe that if someone is struck with a piece of wood with enough force to kill them, a faceshield isn't going to do a thing to prevent it. A helmet with a facial cage might. I have researched the industry specs for impact resistance; they don't test for damage caused by a fifty pound projectile; they are designed primarily for eye protection from small flying pieces of debris. Thinking a faceshield with prevent catastrophic injury is a false sense of security...the piece of wood must be prevented from contacting the operator in the first place.

 

[robo hippy]

Gynia,
The point is to show what "can" be done. A point I emphasize is that most people will never turn like I do, specifically at high speeds, and hogging off a lot of material in a hurry. The techniques are the same, no matter how you turn. I do slow it down and explain what I do, and why I do it.

robo hippy

 

[jschnell1203]

I've send Al what I put together as a starting point to talk about general shop safety and also include the AAW Woodturning Safety guidelines. I think some videos would also be a good start.

 

[Dick Sowa]

Most all "safety" discussions deal with the physical hazards associated with turning...flying pieces, dust, fires in the shavings, whatever. Rarely do we hear about subtle hazards that involve what happens before or after a vessel is turned. In other words, what the solvents in that finish we are using might do to our skin or lungs. Similarly, when we buff a finished vessel, we might not pay attention to what gets airborne. Similarly, the hazards before the blank is mounted on the lathe are seldom discussed. ex: chain saw safety.

The bottom line, is that safety considerations are essential from the selection of the raw stock, all the way to when the finished piece goes in the house for display. Everywhere along the way there are safety considerations that need to be considered.

 

[George Clark]

George, I strongly believe that if someone is struck with a piece of wood with enough force to kill them, a face shield isn't going to do a thing to prevent it. A helmet with a facial cage might. I have researched the industry specs for impact resistance; they don't test for damage caused by a fifty pound projectile; they are designed primarily for eye protection from small flying pieces of debris. Thinking a face shield with prevent catastrophic injury is a false sense of security...the piece of wood must be prevented from contacting the operator in the first place.

I guess you're telling me not to bother with a face shield because if that chunk of wood hits me hard enough it will kill me anyway. Makes sense to me, not.

Did I say anything about thinking a face shield would prevent catastrophic injury? One thing I can say with certainty is, not wearing one will not prevent anything. Given that you are going to be struck in the face with a flying piece of wood, would you prefer it to be with or without a face shield?

My point is that in many of the demos I have watched by the "Professional Turner" they merely give lip service to safe practices and then demonstrate using unsafe practices because "they know how to turn." Every time Mr. Pro does his demo without a face shield it tells Mr. Pro wannabee that wearing one really isn't necessary.

George

 

[MichaelMouse]

Armor up before you step up. It's not danger from going without the breastplate (a precordial thump can stop as well as start a heart) or the faceshield, which is designed to deflect shavings, not bowls, or even males failing to wear a cup that troubles me. It's turning at high rpm. Strange that this has not been mentioned save by the Hippy. It makes everything else more dangerous.

No, I do not wear a vision-distorting motion-limiting face shield. I also don't wear a tight collar, because the way I cut doesn't send shavings that way. Proper placement of myself and the toolrest kept even the dismounts I experienced with the Masterchuck far from hitting me. The safety mantra I follow is in my sig line.

We had a lot of wired guarded switches in the aircraft. Switches that were never touched during normal procedures. Mechanical prevention. Never believed it was superior to procedural protection.

 

[Gynia]

Given that you are going to be struck in the face with a flying piece of wood, would you prefer it to be with or without a face shield?

Every time Mr. Pro does his demo without a face shield it tells Mr. Pro wannabee that wearing one really isn't necessary.

Given that you are not going to be struck in the face with a flying piece of wood, would you prefer to be with or without a face shield?

There is no given that a wood turner will be struck in the face with an errant hunk of wood. There are ways to significantly reduce the opportunity of being struck in the face or face shield.

If you are struck in the face shield with a flying piece of wood then you should make a change in the way you are turning wood.

I do not believe that "Mr. Pro wannabee" is so careless as to hand over his (or her) safety to someone else. "Mr. Pro wannabee" is not so dumb as to think that they can safely turn wood the same way as "Mr. Pro".

Given your logic, the only folks who should be doing demos are newbies so the folks viewing will not be tempted to turn in a way which is beyond their skill or experience level.

When I watch a demo I want to see the possibilities. I will or will not try out those possibilities depending on how well I feel I can execute. The demonstrator not wearing a face shield is going to have ZERO impact on my choice to wear or not wear a face shield. I have to think that the other folks watching the demo are likewise unfazed by the face shield the demonstrator may or may not be wearing. Ask yourself if your choice to wear or not wear a face shield is affected by the demonstrator. Why can't the other folks watching the demo be likewise unaffected?

We are not children who need to be "protected" from watching what may be unsafe practices.

 

[Keith T.]

Practice what you preach. Require all demonstrators to follow your safety rules. Students are much more likely to do what they're shown rather than what they're told. Stop presenting a mixed message. If you are really serious about promoting safety, then "I'm only doing this to clarify the demo" or "the mic works better without the face shield for the demo" are simply unacceptable excuses. All safety equipment causes a restriction of some sort. Get used to it.

In NASCAR, the death of the man who refused to wear a full face helmet, because it restricted his vision, did more to promote the proper use of safety equipment and safety innovation than any other single event. I hope we don't have to kill one of the "big guys" in woodtuning to get demonstrators to use face shields, although I personally suspect it may have happened already.

George.

George, please re-read your own statement. "I hope we don't have to kill one of the "big guys" in woodturning".....implies the face shield would prevent someone from being killed. I don't appreciate you twisting my words; I didn't say NOT to wear a face shield, I said trusting it to prevent being killed is a false sense of security. In fact, I suggested wearing a helmet with a guard would be a better idea. These ideas MAY help prevent you from being killed: 1. On a big, out of balance piece, use a faceplate with appropriate screws, rather than a chuck. For extra security, draw up the tailstock while roughing. 2. Keep the toolrest as close to the piece as possible. 3. Don't turn close to the end of the toolrest..keep your tool over the post as much as possible. A big catch when roughing CAN snap off your toolrest. 3. If using a chuck, ensure the shoulder of the tenon fits squarely against the jaws. 4. Most importantly, turn your speed down BEFORE starting the lathe. (I know of two people who were nearly killed by not checking this...one was wearing his facemask.)5. Keep your tools properly sharpened.
These are just a few suggestions to help prevent getting yourself killed...the facemask is a poor substitute for any of them.

 

[Steven Antonucci]

Wet Paint signs...

Safety is a lot like a wet paint sign. You can put up all the signs you want, but some folks will still have to get paint on their hands to find out that the sign was right.

I believe that safety is a personal choice that each individual must decide for themselves. If you are worried about face shields vs. safety glasses, you probably really need to learn how to cut and where to stand more than relying on a thin piece of plastic to save your face. I am not suggesting that other turners shouldn't wear one, but it is a false sense of security.

The biggest issue with safety in the field today is that woodturners can jump in with $10,000 to buy that big lathe and put 100 pounds of wood on it with no idea what they are doing. (Feel free to adjust the numbers). I've met people who have been turning for 30 years, and still scare the heck out of me. There has always been a perception that "longevity+lathe=expertise".

The problem is getting worse. All kinds of people are uploading videos of their "skills" to various websites, and their expertise becomes validated because they have the big lathe and eventually show something that was sanded to fix all of their cutting mistakes.

The AAW needs to consider the behavioural aspects of change management. You cannot simply tell 80% of membership that they work unsafely, even if it is completely true. In my experience, someone with lathe+longevity has to be passively shown that their working methods are atrocious, and then you need to let them come to you to fix it. New turners also need to be "slowed down" from wanting to "make a bowl" to learning how to make a bowl safely with minimal risk.

It's not something that can be legislated, but it does require a change management leader who goes out and creates local leaders in the chapters. Those local soldiers win hearts and minds, one at a time, until there is true change.

Steve

P.S. What is safe for me to do, may not be safe for you to do...compounding the problem.

 

[Robin Thompson]

Websters dictionary has several definitions for an accident. The one I (try) to work with in mind is basically this. An accident is an event or circumstance that is unplanned and/or unexpected. I have learned the hard way to expect the unexpected. For example, a cut over and under my eye was earned when a turning rotating at 1100 rpm blew apart because of a catch and struck me in the face. Did I expect that to happen? NO! I now wear the face mask even though it is uncomfortable and distorts the vision. No turning is worth an eye. This accident could have been prevented as the root cause was human error. I dare say we are all human and errors happen. You can expect that.

 

[robo hippy]

From Will Rogers:
"There are 3 kinds of men in this world. Those that learn by observation, the few that learn by reading, and the rest that have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

From a niece of mine about one of her sons, "Some of them have to pee on the electric fence a lot of times.

Unknown: You can not invent some thing that is idiot proof. If you do, then some one will invent a better idiot.

I try to emphasize what can go wrong, why it goes wrong, and how to correct it. What else can you do?

robo hippy

 

[George Clark]

George, please re-read your own statement. "I hope we don't have to kill one of the "big guys" in woodturning".....implies the face shield would prevent someone from being killed. I don't appreciate you twisting my words; I didn't say NOT to wear a face shield, I said trusting it to prevent being killed is a false sense of security. In fact, I suggested wearing a helmet with a guard would be a better idea. These ideas MAY help prevent you from being killed: 1. On a big, out of balance piece, use a faceplate with appropriate screws, rather than a chuck. For extra security, draw up the tailstock while roughing. 2. Keep the toolrest as close to the piece as possible. 3. Don't turn close to the end of the toolrest..keep your tool over the post as much as possible. A big catch when roughing CAN snap off your toolrest. 3. If using a chuck, ensure the shoulder of the tenon fits squarely against the jaws. 4. Most importantly, turn your speed down BEFORE starting the lathe. (I know of two people who were nearly killed by not checking this...one was wearing his facemask.)5. Keep your tools properly sharpened.
These are just a few suggestions to help prevent getting yourself killed...the facemask is a poor substitute for any of them.

Kieth, I think there is room for debate as to who is distorting who's words. I resent your comments that imply that because I suggested that the number one rule from the AAW's safety guidelines:

"1. Always wear safety goggles or safety glasses that include side protectors. Use a full faceshield for bowl, vessel or any turning involving chucks and faceplates."

be enforced at AAW events, that I'm some sort of a heritic that that needs to be chastised by you and your superior knowledge of safety practices and that all I have is a false sense of security. I strongly agree with all 5 of the items on your list. However, your last statement shows, for me, the stupidity of your position and your desire to destort my position. Who the h@## said anything substituting the face mask for anything? Another one of your ludicris assertions so you can again create an arguement where none existed to point out your superior knowledge.

If I agree that you are far more right and knowledgeable than I, and that my concept of following the AAW's safety guidelines is foolish and trite next the the vast mountain of knowledge that you posess on safety, can we both be correct, or do we need to petition the AAW to drop Item 1 of their safety guidelines?

George

 

[George Clark]

I am simply amazed at the tone and quantity of feedback I have received for suggesting the AAW follow their own safety guidelines at their events.

Perhaps the Safety Committee (if there is one) could publish a new set of safety guidelines for demonstrators and those who really know how turn. Following that they could create some guidelines for testing so members would know when to transition from the "dumb turner safety guidelines" to the "really know how to turn safety guidelines." What a concept! The potential here is endless. For drivers who really know how drive there is the air bag, seat belt and shoulder harness deactivation kit. We could eliminate PFDs from the boats of those who really know how to swim. It goes on and on.

 

[hockenbery]

HI Al, I would be willing to give a demonstration on bandsaw safety, if you feel it would be feasible. My article on bandsaw safety in the recent issue of the AAW magazine was well received, and would benefit many turners both new and seasoned. I have not yet applied to demonstrate in 2012, but would gladly do so if encouraged. Any thoughts by fellow members would be appreciated.

Hi Keith,
I thought the Band saw article was on the mark. Of the folks I know well who required a hospital visit. Band saw injuries are way above half.
Regarding face shields. I know one injury that most likely would not have included the hospital if a face shield were worn. I also know I would have had a serious injury had I not been wearing a face sheild.

I have an airmate helmet that is OSHA approved as hard hat.

I agree with you that a full impact from a large block may cause severe trauma, concussion, or death even with the OSHA approved hard hat.

A seat belt and airbag won't prevent death in every auto accident.
A face shield can't be expected to prevent death or serious injury in all cases. Wearing a face shield doesn't entitle us to disregard other safety guidelines.
wearing a face shield can prevent many injuries.

A face shield doesn't make us invincible. I think we agree in general.

thanks
Al

 

[hockenbery]

I've send Al what I put together as a starting point to talk about general shop safety and also include the AAW Woodturning Safety guidelines. I think some videos would also be a good start.

Jeff,
Thanks for sending those documents.

regards,
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Armor up before you step up. It's not danger from going without the breastplate (a precordial thump can stop as well as start a heart) or the faceshield, which is designed to deflect shavings, not bowls, or even males failing to wear a cup that troubles me. It's turning at high rpm. Strange that this has not been mentioned save by the Hippy. It makes everything else more dangerous.

No, I do not wear a vision-distorting motion-limiting face shield. I also don't wear a tight collar, because the way I cut doesn't send shavings that way. Proper placement of myself and the toolrest kept even the dismounts I experienced with the Masterchuck far from hitting me. The safety mantra I follow is in my sig line.

We had a lot of wired guarded switches in the aircraft. Switches that were never touched during normal procedures. Mechanical prevention. Never believed it was superior to procedural protection.

The comment about high RPM is a very good point. The kinetic energy in a piece of wood (the amount of energy that would be transferred to your body when it strikes) is proportional to the square of the velocity whether linear velocity or rotational velocity. In more basic terms, doubling the velocity will quadruple the kinetic energy. If that is hard to visualize, another way of visualizing this is it would be equivalent to the effect of being hit by a piece of wood at the original slower velocity compared to being hit by a piece of wood with four times the mass at that same velocity.

I turn slow, but I also am concerned about shots caroming off the headstock, tailstock, bed, or toolrest and changing direction of its trajectory. I also am bothered considerably by wood dust so I take care of both issues by wearing an Airstream powered respirator.

Because of turbulence or extremely high-g maneuvers, switches in military aircraft may be guarded or pull-to-unlatch toggles. Panels usually have a very high density of knobs and switches and flight gloves could cause unintended bumping of a switch. I think that safety wired guards on switches are generally there for ground maintenance and are located in equipment bays in the aircraft that I am familiar with. Not saying that some aircraft don't use them inside the cockpit.

 

[AlanZ]

Bill,

I agree that flying objects and the trajectory of those object and the things they interact with, shatter and ricochet off of is a real concern.

I admire those who think they can simply stay out of the line of fire. They must have a better grasp of physics that I do. Much like motorcyclists who don't wear their protective gear because "I'm just going to the store". They seem to be able to predict when they are not going to get into an accident.

I can't think of ways of staying out of the line of shattering overhead lights (and yes, my flourescent tubes are encased in plastic tubes) and all of the other pointy things that could come at my face during an unanticipated launch.

When at the lathe, Lauren and I each wear protective gear (powered respirator helmet). This setup is very comfortable and actually lets me see *better* because it doesn't fog up and I'm not squinting in anticipation of things flying at me.

Not surprisingly, when I ride a motorcycle, I'm in full armored gear including a conspicuity vest, all the time. It's called ATGATT (all the gear, all the time).

There are ways to be mitigate much of the risk. Procedures are a big part of it, but personal protective gear, AND the desire/discipline to use it can minimize or eliminate injury when the unexpected happens.

 

[Steven Antonucci]

I am simply amazed at the tone and quantity of feedback I have received for suggesting the AAW follow their own safety guidelines at their events.

I suppose that the question is what is the AAW's current level of effort around educating new turners to get them into the hobby? What is the continuing education plan for "experienced turners"?

I know in my own area, there are guys that I will not do field work with because they don't have the slightest clue about how to operate a chainsaw. I also know a bunch of people who I stay far away from when they are on the lathe. How do you fix a problem when the people that have it don't recognize that they have a problem?

It's really quite simple.

If the AAW wants to promote "best practices" at their events, make it a requirement that any demonstrator must wear a face shield/googles/motorcycle helmet/whatever OR THEY WILL NOT BE PAID. Monitor it and enforce it. You will see behavior change.

Of course, there will be some pushback from the folks that don't want to change, and perhaps there will be a need to equip AV a little bit better, but the end result is that people will see safety principles being enforced. People usually only change in response to pain.

You can't legislate compliance, but you can penalize non-compliance.

S

 

[AlanZ]

I think Steve has just summed it up very well.

 

[George Clark]

Wow. A couple of allies. Thanks Steven and AllanZ.

I agree with your comments.

George

 

[Barbara Gill]

What I don't get is how someone could not recognize the inherent danger in woodturning. We all have exposed to a little physics in our lifetime. In spite of that people constantly do stupid things that put them in harms way. How much sense does it take to realize if you stick your fingers between the tool rest and a piece of spinning wood, bad things can happen.

You can't do anything about stupid. All of us at one time or the other have done dangerous, stupid things at the lathe. I can't imagine us not knowing the act was dangerous, but we do it anyway.

Just look at the manuals that come with power tools. They are dumbed down to the point of ludicrous. We all make fun of them. How can we not know that if you put your fingers in the way of a bandsaw blade, you might loose them?

I agree that people who demonstrate should use proper safety practices. Going to the time and expense of creating videos, discussions, etc. to make people aware of the obvious seems counter productive.

My comments are directed at adults. Children are another matter. They can't be exposed to too much safety information.


As Pooh said, "Think, think, think."

 

[Steven Antonucci]

Wow. A couple of allies. Thanks Steven and AllanZ.

I agree with your comments.

George

Organizations make policy decisions all of the time. I don't want to confuse the rights of the individual with the policies that an organization mandates. What you do in you own shop is your own responsibility. What you do as a paid presenter can be entirely different than your personal viewpoint.

I frequently turn with out a faceshield or goggle, fully understanding the risk I incur. I have an intimate knowledge of the material, the equipment, and the physics and accept that risk. When I demonstrate, I sometimes wear a pair of goggles just so I don't have to answer the question. I always make sure that the line of fire is clear to protect my audience, who may not be wearing faceshields and have an equal risk to me.

The goal should be education first, with an understanding that ability evolves over time. Risk should go down as skill goes up. Woodturning is not inherently risky. Woodturning with low skill is.

 

[George Clark]

I frequently turn with out a faceshield or goggle, fully understanding the risk I incur. I have an intimate knowledge of the material, the equipment, and the physics and accept that risk.

Are your eyes so good that you can spot that hidden flaw that may weaken your piece and and allow it to explode? Are your nerves so steely that when an airline explodes on the other side of the shop that there is no chance that you might jump and cause a catch. Does your family sign off on your practices and accept the risk as you do? Do you have sufficient assets to protect the taxpayers when you kill yourself because you, in your professional wisdom, chose to accept unnecessary risk, because you know to turn, and your family is now without a breadwinner?

No matter how hard you try, it is really difficult to make a valid arguement for unsafe practices based on "I know how to turn" or "I am a professional" that will stand the light of day.

On the other hand, there are some things you just can't fix.

George

 

[john lucas]

Well I concur with Steve even though I know we aren't going to win an argument with George. I almost didn't respond because it will simply prolong the argument.
I hate face shields. I've tried them numerous times and currently own 3. They are in my opinion simply irritating. I know I should wear one but I've been turning for an awful long time without. My projects are mostly small and not dangerous enough to warrant the irritation of a face shield. Sorry I feel that way but I do and will take the risks accordingly.
I will put one on when roughing really nasty wood because the irritation is offset by the risk. I've been turning for long long time and think I understand the risks.
The same is true when I demonstrate. My projects are chosen with my safety in mine as well as the crowd. I find it very hard to communicate adequately with the face shield on. I'm constantly flipping it up and back down and for what, so the Christmas ornament won't kill me. Common let's have a little common sense.

 

[Philip Streeting]

Proir knowledge

Is it right to assume that all members of an audience at a demo or participants in an instruction session have the same level of prior learning or apreciation of the subject being demonstrated?

Are we all programmed with the same version of common sense and when was it last updated?

We are in an age were few under the age 35 (in the UK) have any kind of practical workshop skills training or hands on experience of tools and equipment under expert guidence at school. Where does this common sense and appreciation of tool and machinery safety come from now in this age grouping?

Is woodturning taught in schools and colleges elsewhere in the world in a structured way?

Do we mostly use experiential learning now based on what we see done by others and the way they do it or appear to us to be doing?

Phil

 

[Steven Antonucci]

Are your eyes so good that you can spot that hidden flaw that may weaken your piece and and allow it to explode? Are your nerves so steely that when an airline explodes on the other side of the shop that there is no chance that you might jump and cause a catch. Does your family sign off on your practices and accept the risk as you do? Do you have sufficient assets to protect the taxpayers when you kill yourself because you, in your professional wisdom, chose to accept unnecessary risk, because you know to turn, and your family is now without a breadwinner?

No matter how hard you try, it is really difficult to make a valid arguement for unsafe practices based on "I know how to turn" or "I am a professional" that will stand the light of day.

On the other hand, there are some things you just can't fix.

George

There have been many academic arguments about whether or not faceshields should or shouldn't be required. I am merely trying to explain HOW you can change behavior within the organization. If people are no longer allowed to demonstrate without a faceshield, the behavior will change.

As far as the rest of your rhetoric goes, um... yeah. For the most part, I do. I turn a lot of spalted, punky, buggy, included pieces. When stuff happens, I am nowhere near the stuff. I always check my speeds and make sure I am out of the line of fire.

The one time I was turning a platter, it split in two and sent one half richoceting of of my mask and the other half straight up into my ceiling. Being stuck hard in the face with a mask hurts a lot. I no longer stand in the line of fire.

You have to realize that symposiums and demonstrations NEED to be viewed as entertainment, not instruction. Lots of people confused the two things. If I went to a motorcycle rally and watched people doing wheelies and jumps, I wouldn't think that was enough for me to go try it. I may aspire to do it someday, but I would be smart enough to not try it.

Woodturning demos are not classes. When I teach, my students wear faceshields. I try to at least wear glasses, and a faceshield whenever I can, but it isn't always practical. I repeatedly discuss why they should wear a mask, and more important, understand the line of fire.

Next time you are at a demo, see how many folks are in the front row behind the lathe and ask them why they aren't wearing safety gear...

 

[Gynia]

There have been many academic arguments about whether or not faceshields should or shouldn't be required. I am merely trying to explain HOW you can change behavior within the organization. If people are no longer allowed to demonstrate without a faceshield, the behavior will change.

Do we like watching slide shows or watching a bunch of woodturners talk about woodburning. Or do we like watching shavings fly and demonstrators DOING something.

I suspect that if face shields are required then the folks doing demos will be different than the folks we see doing demos now. The more rules and restrictions which are placed on a demonstrator the fewer demonstrators we will have. I think the woodturning community has more than enough folks willing and eager to do demonstrations. I think that the woodturning community has more than enough demonstrators who would be willing to wear a face shield.

I have seen over 100 demonstrations. 3 of those demonstrators wore face shields. 2 of those efforts were failed. The one demonstrator who was successful at doing a demo while wearing a face shield happen to be doing a demo I didn't care for (there have been at least 20 demos I didn't care for). I have to wonder how many of those demos would have never happened if a face shield was required. I also wonder how all these demonstrators have survived their long carriers of woodturning without wearing a face shield. Could it be that all this hoopla about face shields has more to do with control than it does with safety?

 

[john lucas]

Gynia That's what I wanted to say but wimped out. thanks

 

[George Clark]

Gentlemen,

As John indicated the arguement has probably gone on long enough. It all started after Al Hockenberry proposed his safety session at the 2012 convention. My thought was (and is) that the movers and shakers of this organization are quite hypocritical when it comes to safety. On the one hand they have produced and endorsed this official AAW list of turning safety rules but yet they neither obey nor enforce the very first rule on the list at their own functions. That's what I call really setting an example. Additionally, they have become absolute masters at espousing bovine excrement about why the rules don't apply to them, the professional, because they know how to turn. My feeling is either enforce the rule or change it.

At least one turner has died this year from being struck in the head by an exploding piece of work. By all accounts, that I could find, she was a professional and safety conscious turner but something certainly went terribly wrong. I don't know if she was wearing a face shield or not, nor whether one would have lessened her injury. To those of you who, in your infinite wisdom, are sure it would have made no difference, I say, it certainly would have done no harm. In my mind what might make a fatal accident survivable could be quite small and thus spreading the blow over a larger area might offered some hope. We'll never know.

At the very least can we stop hiding behind, "I'm a professional, I know how to turn" and admit that we don' t wear a face shield because we don't like it, we find it uncomfortable, it restricts our vision, etc, etc, etc. and admit when our kid comes in with a fat bloody lip the example we set might have had something to do with it?

George

 

[Steven Antonucci]

Gentlemen,

As John indicated the arguement has probably gone on long enough. It all started after Al Hockenberry proposed his safety session at the 2012 convention. My thought was (and is) that the movers and shakers of this organization are quite hypocritical when it comes to safety. On the one hand they have produced and endorsed this official AAW list of turning safety rules but yet they neither obey nor enforce the very first rule on the list at their own functions. That's what I call really setting an example. Additionally, they have become absolute masters at espousing bovine excrement about why the rules don't apply to them, the professional, because they know how to turn. My feeling is either enforce the rule or change it.

At least one turner has died this year from being struck in the head by an exploding piece of work. By all accounts, that I could find, she was a professional and safety conscious turner but something certainly went terribly wrong. I don't know if she was wearing a face shield or not, nor whether one would have lessened her injury. To those of you who, in your infinite wisdom, are sure it would have made no difference, I say, it certainly would have done no harm. In my mind what might make a fatal accident survivable could be quite small and thus spreading the blow over a larger area might offered some hope. We'll never know.

At the very least can we stop hiding behind, "I'm a professional, I know how to turn" and admit that we don' t wear a face shield because we don't like it, we find it uncomfortable, it restricts our vision, etc, etc, etc. and admit when our kid comes in with a fat bloody lip the example we set might have had something to do with it?

George

It's about getting your definitions in order. Would you take responsibility for the guy how crashes a motorcycle because he saw someone jump their motorcycle? Everyone is accountable for their own safety. When I am teaching, I make the students wear a mask for their own safety because I have control of that environment. The AAW sanctioned events are completely under the AAW's control. The AAW can mandate faceshields, but chooses not to.

However, the AAW cannot mandate what I do in my own life. I make that decision. The only time those things cross is if I am asked to do something at an AAW event. At that point, the AAW needs to stick to a firm policy, and I need to decide if I want to abide by these rules.

My shop, my decision. (guidelines)

AAW event, AAW decision. (rules)

Your shop (you make the call)

 

[Keith T.]

Gentlemen,

As John indicated the arguement has probably gone on long enough. It all started after Al Hockenberry proposed his safety session at the 2012 convention. My thought was (and is) that the movers and shakers of this organization are quite hypocritical when it comes to safety. On the one hand they have produced and endorsed this official AAW list of turning safety rules but yet they neither obey nor enforce the very first rule on the list at their own functions. That's what I call really setting an example. Additionally, they have become absolute masters at espousing bovine excrement about why the rules don't apply to them, the professional, because they know how to turn. My feeling is either enforce the rule or change it.

At least one turner has died this year from being struck in the head by an exploding piece of work. By all accounts, that I could find, she was a professional and safety conscious turner but something certainly went terribly wrong. I don't know if she was wearing a face shield or not, nor whether one would have lessened her injury. To those of you who, in your infinite wisdom, are sure it would have made no difference, I say, it certainly would have done no harm. In my mind what might make a fatal accident survivable could be quite small and thus spreading the blow over a larger area might offered some hope. We'll never know.

At the very least can we stop hiding behind, "I'm a professional, I know how to turn" and admit that we don' t wear a face shield because we don't like it, we find it uncomfortable, it restricts our vision, etc, etc, etc. and admit when our kid comes in with a fat bloody lip the example we set might have had something to do with it?

George

George, the turner's death you mention disturbed me greatly as well. So much, in fact, I went out and purchased a hockey helmet and heavy-gauge face shield to replace my regular shield when I rough turn.By all the accounts I've heard, she always wore her faceshield...now you know the reason I now always warn against placing too much faith in the faceshield, and instead recommend we should take preventative measures first. I feel the face shield is the last resort, after all other measures have failed it's the only thing between you and bodily harm. So, please understand, I'm as concerned as you are, but take a different approach. The bandsaw safety article I wrote was a result of her accident, and others I've heard of as well, and was meant to help prevent further, needless injuries. I can tell you, however, as one who demo's and wears glasses, wearing a shield while talking on a humid day can fog the shield so much I have to remove it...I can't see. I hope you don't take my opinions as a personal affront, after all, the purpose of the forums is to air as many opinions as possible. I'll bet you're a good guy to know.