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Rose engine build
- Thread starter michael alguire
- Start date
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- Tags
- ornamental lathe
OK, I'll plead ignorance here. What is it and what is it used for? Never run across this before. Satisfying to build your own jigs and fixtures for turning and woodworking.
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It’s an ornamental lathe.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
John Look up Rose engine lathes and you can see what they can do. Complete instructions on how to build one is in an AAW Journal about 5 years ago or more.
michael alguire
Artist
yes its very satisfying , with this i can add grooves or bumps in a pattern on any turning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornamental_turning
Got the general idea. Many thanks. Would there be something that would demonstrate this- video, perhaps? Will do some searching.
A U-Tube search for “rose engine” or “ornamental lathe” will result in a number of clips.
John, found a whole bunch of info. That is an interesting piece of work. Now.....when can I build one and where do I keep it?
Here is a video of a variation of a Rose engine that was used to ornament Wedgewood pottery.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-7twF5_chU
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Wow. That's the same in some ways but totally different in other ways than wood turning with an ornamental lathe. Really cool. Thanks for posting.
Be interesting to see how it turns out. I have some plans for one that looks very similar which I keep promising to make for a couple of years. Looks good so far
I made this video of mine. Different design, but same idea :
View: https://youtu.be/3FH_q5hw2ak
There are 3 other videos on my YouTube channel showing it in operation. What is shown is a prototype I was working on.
There are 3 other videos on my YouTube channel showing it in operation. What is shown is a prototype I was working on.
That is a very interesting setup Rich. I am assuming the lathe itself "rocks" and not the tool. Does anyone know of plans that would have the tool rock? I am not too keen on having my Oneway 2436 rock like that Midi Delta. 
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
There was an electronic gadget that I think might have been sold by Nova for just a very short while. It must not have been too successful because I only saw it on the market for about 3 years. It pushed a cutting in and out at different rates depending on how you set it. Probably didn't leave a clean enough cut because the cutter itself wasn't rotating. You can't sand ornamental turnings so the cut has to be really clean. Not hard to do with a spinning cutter that can be adjusted in thousandths of an inch for each cut. I have difficulty getting clean cuts with my router using the outer edge of the cutters. The surface speed just isn't there. With ornamental fly cutters the radius of the arc is much greater for much higher surface speeds. You can also shape the cutter to make more of a planning cut and that helps as well.
Using indexing and a router on a platform you can somewhat duplicate what you see on some ornamental cuts. If you build a fly cutter that would sit on the table and follow a guide it could easily be done and I have been looking at building that option. The Rose engine lathes offer so many more options than you could ever achieve using a standard lathe and gadgets it would be worth building on and maybe someday I will.
Using indexing and a router on a platform you can somewhat duplicate what you see on some ornamental cuts. If you build a fly cutter that would sit on the table and follow a guide it could easily be done and I have been looking at building that option. The Rose engine lathes offer so many more options than you could ever achieve using a standard lathe and gadgets it would be worth building on and maybe someday I will.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Well now this is pretty cool but you still have the same problem of the router bits simply not cutting really clean. This is also very doable. I actually have all the parts I need to do this I think. Will have to look.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AHOfuIBP8I
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT3w7jrtVNI
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
You might mention where you got the idea to rock the lathe Rich.
Yeah, that was Richard's design that I copied. I'm not afraid to do take good designs where I find them.
That is a very interesting setup Rich. I am assuming the lathe itself "rocks" and not the tool. Does anyone know of plans that would have the tool rock? I am not too keen on having my Oneway 2436 rock like that Midi Delta.
Marshall,
Indeed, the lathe itself rocks. That is the "aha" I took away from Richard Coer's design. I was initially planning to go down the path you are describing with my PowerMatic 3520B. I exchanged eMails with Jon Magill (one of the leading thinkers in the ornamental lathe community) about this, and he told me to look at how the Paul Cler lathe had worked. A picture of that lathe is below :
The other option is to go with a CNC-based one like being done by Bill Ooms (http://cornlathe.billooms.com/index.html).
I decided to go with a smaller approach first. There are basically three options here :
- Build an MDF rose engine lathe that was designed by Jon Magill (and published in the AAW magazine, or you can go to http://www.whidbeyworks.com/root/MDF_Rose_Engine.html). That is where Michael is going (the guy who started this thread).
- Use a small lathe like Richard Coer outlined (and I modified in the approach I've taken).
- Go whole hog into this with a new rose engine lathe. There are a number out there, but the one that seems to come up most in the publications I've seen is the Lindow rose Engine (https://lindowmachineworks.com/lindow-rose-engine-menu/). (Or ... if you REALLY want to get fully into this, go for the MADE lathe {https://madelathe.com/}).
As it is, I also ended up making a bit of my own parts, including the cutting frame. The data on Bill Ooms' site helped greatly.
But there is still a lot you have to figure out on your own. Things like overhead drives for the cutting frame. And, overall, there is not much help out there -- including on the Ornamental Turners site. I joined and wasn't able to get help anywhere near what I see on this forum. So I'm glad I took this intermediate step first.
I have some ideas fleshed out on how to take a Paul Cler approach for adding this to my 3520B. Probably will pursue it in a year or two.
Bill Ooms' approach of using CNC has some really cool advantages; however as an IT professional (for work), I'm not too keen on getting into a hobby where I have to maintain computer systems for the rest of my life. Want things to be easier.
The mechanical approach (using cams) requires some maintenance, but it is easier to see and diagnose (for me). I'll probably continue going down that path.
If you want to go down the path of ornamental turning, I do encourage you. It is fun and you can make some really cool stuff. Here's one I made from a small piece of desert ironwood. Just a little bowl for my bride to use for M&Ms snack (1 3/8" x 2 1/5").
If you would like to learn from what I've done, PM me. I'll be glad to chat and tell you what worked for me, and what didn't.
Kind regards,
Rich
These are samples of work I did on my version of a rose engine. I lost interest in ornamental turning when I got so much push back from those who objected to anything but the traditional methods.
Instead of having a rocking headstock mine rotated in the horizontal plane. The remnants of the rose engine are shown, all that's left is a dusty headstock with a DC gear motor to power it. The headstock mounted on a rotating fixture so the pivot point could be varied with respect to the end of the work piece. The cutter was mounted on a plate that could be ramped up to give a spiral effect. Depending on the distance of the pivot point to point being cut the amplitude of the "rocking" varied. The pattern rosette was like the regular ones, the one shown is acrylic.
The cutter assembly moved following a pattern with another DC motor. The cutter moved under power while the headstock "rocked" under power. The cutter movement travel speed had to be tuned by eye to make sure the pattern was fully cut without showing cutter marks.
Some of the samples are domed, some flat tapers to center. The two middle pieces show the effect of the amplitude variation. The spiral of the pattern is due to the cutter moving up a ramp. It looks like I ran the middle left one in forward and reverse (this was 15+ years ago so I don't recall exactly everything about these).
Here's the only remnant of the original machine.
Instead of having a rocking headstock mine rotated in the horizontal plane. The remnants of the rose engine are shown, all that's left is a dusty headstock with a DC gear motor to power it. The headstock mounted on a rotating fixture so the pivot point could be varied with respect to the end of the work piece. The cutter was mounted on a plate that could be ramped up to give a spiral effect. Depending on the distance of the pivot point to point being cut the amplitude of the "rocking" varied. The pattern rosette was like the regular ones, the one shown is acrylic.
The cutter assembly moved following a pattern with another DC motor. The cutter moved under power while the headstock "rocked" under power. The cutter movement travel speed had to be tuned by eye to make sure the pattern was fully cut without showing cutter marks.
Some of the samples are domed, some flat tapers to center. The two middle pieces show the effect of the amplitude variation. The spiral of the pattern is due to the cutter moving up a ramp. It looks like I ran the middle left one in forward and reverse (this was 15+ years ago so I don't recall exactly everything about these).
Here's the only remnant of the original machine.
Thanks for your detailed reply Rich. I do not currently have enough motivation (although it's growing) to jump into ornamental turning, I also lack some of the means in order to build my own rose engine.
It is unfortunate you encountered so much objection Doug. On a positive note, your design sounds interesting; it would have been cool to see it in its prime and in operation.
It is unfortunate you encountered so much objection Doug. On a positive note, your design sounds interesting; it would have been cool to see it in its prime and in operation.
Marshall,
You can buy the parts; in fact Jon Magill makes most available as a kit. There are other suppliers for other pieces. If you want to go there, let me know how I can help.
What I am sensing with this thread is what I’ve thought : there is value in putting the information together in some web-based form.
Rich
Here is another DIY rose engine a friend and I made. This is loosely based on a design (Lathezilla) that Capt. Eddie Castelin came up with. It has a rocking headstockHere is a pic of my DIY rose engine. It uses a 5C spin index for the headstock, and the milling attachment for the Sherline lathe for the cutting frame. I had thought about making the MDF lathe, but due to lack of space, I wanted to mount it on my PM3520b.
In hindsight, I would have been better off just making the MDF lathe, instead trying to reinvent the wheel, but I like building tools as much as turning wood.![phpm1XRRbPM[1].jpg](https://www.aawforum.org/community/data/attachments/21/21546-523c3f3ba654db92e4ba790c0c8b8143.jpg "phpm1XRRbPM[1].jpg")
In hindsight, I would have been better off just making the MDF lathe, instead trying to reinvent the wheel, but I like building tools as much as turning wood.
I suspect that is true of a lot of Woodturners.
Can we see more pics ?
![phpzCmpBEAM[1].jpg](https://www.aawforum.org/community/data/attachments/21/21559-aa1dc35f080642ae79e136c653bce37d.jpg "phpzCmpBEAM[1].jpg")
![php8dSnLCAM[1].jpg](https://www.aawforum.org/community/data/attachments/21/21560-7f5945f8418f633223230344f77cff94.jpg "php8dSnLCAM[1].jpg")
![phpFlYhjQAM[1].jpg](https://www.aawforum.org/community/data/attachments/21/21561-b6addfba26d4ac554f03d1237e7332e5.jpg "phpFlYhjQAM[1].jpg")
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Wow, what a beautiful piece of machinery.
Michael,
You should check out Jon Magill’s change to the way he positions the x-z table using mag switches and a sheet of metal. Worth looking into !
Rich
This is the rose engine I have, the Mandala Rose Engine.
I’m in the company of some serious geniuses here! Simply amazing you guys can build such complicated device! In awe...
Bill,
I’m interested in your experiences and feedback on that bad boy.
Kind regards,
Rich
.
Gary, there are no comments with your pics.
Hi Bernie. Yes, I don't know what happened to the text. Sorry about that. Rich contacted me in a new conversation asking for more pics or a video. I sent him a link to a youtube video I did on turning a spiral ornament.