Reshaping a hard Arkansas stone......

[Odie]

Just wondered if anyone has done any reshaping or otherwise altering of a hard Arkansas stone.......?

I'm tempted to try some 60gt 6x48 belt, or grinder wheel, but thought I'd ask here and see if anyone has tried that first......

The new (dark) Arkansas stone I recently purchased would work much better if it were slightly thinner.

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Just wondered if anyone has done any reshaping or otherwise altering of a hard Arkansas stone.......?

I'm tempted to try some 60gt 6x48 belt, or grinder wheel, but thought I'd ask here and see if anyone has tried that first......

The new (dark) Arkansas stone I recently purchased would work much better if it were slightly thinner.

ooc

Since the stone is probably harder that the abrasive on your belt, the prospects are not good. Plus, if it would abrade the stone, you would ruin it as a fine hone as it would be charged to a 60 grit surface; useless for what you bought it for.

Of more immediate concern, if it gets away from you on the machine, it won't bounce when it hits the floor.

 

[Odie]

Since the stone is probably harder that the abrasive on your belt, the prospects are not good. Plus, if it would abrade the stone, you would ruin it as a fine hone as it would be charged to a 60 grit surface; useless for what you bought it for.

Of more immediate concern, if it gets away from you on the machine, it won't bounce when it hits the floor.

Just wondering, Mark........

Have you tried to shape a hard Arkansas stone.......or, are you only theorizing?

Either way is OK with me, and I appreciate your input. I would like to get some response from those who have made the attempt, though.

Thanks.

ooc

 

[Bart Leetch]

Just wondered if anyone has done any reshaping or otherwise altering of a hard Arkansas stone.......?

I'm tempted to try some 60gt 6x48 belt, or grinder wheel, but thought I'd ask here and see if anyone has tried that first......

The new (dark) Arkansas stone I recently purchased would work much better if it were slightly thinner.

ooc

I found this interesting don't know if it will help or not.

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/oil-stones

Read under... Care and Maintenance

 

[Odie]

I found this interesting don't know if it will help or not.

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/oil-stones

Read under... Care and Maintenance

Yeah Bart......thanks.

My impressions are the guy has some practical experience with shaping stones.......but, you know how it goes on the Internet! Sometimes people can sound very experienced on a particular subject, when the truth is quite the opposite. Just as true, is that some people have had a lot of experience, but are not as proficient as they view themselves.......and, unfortunately, that applies to a few people who frequent the AAW forums, as well. The one and only thing the reader can use to judge the advice he gets, is by the results those who give advice are getting...........and, if they are unwilling to show you their results, then it's cause to suspect some, if not all the advice they have given.😉

I found this helpful:

If it becomes hopelessly clogged, you can use sandpaper on a piece of glass or some other flat surface - the same procedures you would used to flatten the stone. Flattening can be done with a concrete block, sandpaper on glass, or using another similar oil stone and rubbing the two together. Softer stones obviously require flattening more often than harder ones... I've read you can go a lifetime and not have to flatten the hardest arkansas stones, and the same is supposed to be true with India stones, too. I did have to flatten the soft arkansas stones I owned previously - once when I first got them, and again about 5 years later. Crystolon/Carborundum stones require flattening more regularly - I used to flatten the one I had once a year or so.

Judging from this, it looks like a 6x48 belt could thin down a stone.......but might be too aggressive for what I want to do. I might give it a try using a sandpaper sheet on my table saw top.......but, he didn't say what grits to use. If I were to guess, I'd say the process would be similar to working with wood........start with coarse, and work towards finer grits.

Anyone with experience doing this?

ooc



Very curious! If you go to the Norse Woodsmith's home page and scroll down a ways.......he's using a "pole lathe" to do his lathe work! That guy is really into the "old school" thing! 😀

 

[Mark Mandell]

Just wondering, Mark........

Have you tried to shape a hard Arkansas stone.......or, are you only theorizing?

Either way is OK with me, and I appreciate your input. I would like to get some response from those who have made the attempt, though.

Thanks.

ooc

I have flattened/cleaned oil stones using abrasives. It was a tedious process at best to get the stone flat and "graded." I have not, however, needed or attempted to do so on my hard (translucent white) Arkansas because, in 40 years of use, they've never needed it. Since you've gone to the "black" with its reputed increased hardness over what I have, I expressed my doubt. Nothing more.

 

[Odie]

I have flattened/cleaned oil stones using abrasives. It was a tedious process at best to get the stone flat and "graded." I have not, however, needed or attempted to do so on my hard (white) Arkansas because, in 40 years of use, they've never needed it. Since you've gone to the "black" with its reputed increased hardness over what I have, I expressed my doubt. Nothing more.

Thanks, Mark.......

So, it appears shaping is possible!

I do have the 6x48 belt and some worn 220g belts that can be used, if using sandpaper on a flat surface takes too long. We'll see about this! 😀 From my standpoint, I've never shaped a slipstone, but if this works out, I might have others that can be reshaped to my needs. 😀

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Thanks, Mark.......

So, it appears shaping is possible!

I do have the 6x48 belt and some worn 220g belts that can be used, if using sandpaper on a flat surface takes too long. We'll see about this! 😀 From my standpoint, I've never shaped a slipstone, but if this works out, I might have others that can be reshaped to my needs. 😀

ooc

You would be better served to make your inquiry to the manufacturer as to possibilities and how-to information. Your retailer should be able to direct you.

For instance, that powered dry belt you propose to use could generate too much heat that could fracture the hard stone. Most abrasive shaping of stone is done wet for this same reason.

 

[MichaelMouse]

With a computer in front of you, you have a fine aid to research, if only you're willing to use it. For instance, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novaculite would have let both you and Mark know that Arkansas stone is a Mohs 7, while aluminum oxide is a sturdy 9. Sand away. Low-grade metamorphism implies heat resistance, but water will not only cool, but also clean the surface, so it's certainly recommended.

The particulate size of the stone is not changed by the particulate size of the abrasive, so Mark's 60 grit remake isn't going to happen, either. If you want to polish the surface to some degree of smooth, you will need to use finer grits. If you have the patience, SiC paper (Mohs 9.5) will do the job, or disregard the paper and lap on SiC graded dust or diamond. All easily procured.

What's going to cause the problem is the shape. You'll need an opposite contour to put the dust or paper in/on. Carvers use leather or soft wood to hold the dust when honing inside. Or you can put SiC inside the gouge in question and rub away, I suppose.

This is lapidary of a particular sort. Go to your local rock shop for ideas and supplies if you find you can't take good advice from other sources.

 

[Mark Mandell]

The particulate size of the stone is not changed by the particulate size of the abrasive, so Mark's 60 grit remake isn't going to happen, either.

If you abrade the stone with a 60gt. surface, it will impart that same surface to the steel until and unless the stone is reground to a finer surface. My comment to Odie was nothing more than to make him aware of that. The Tormek system uses this same principal to get 2 or more grades of grind out of the same waterstone.

Assuming that Odie gets his slip reshaped to his liking without breaking it, to use it as the razor fine hone that it's intended for, he will have a fair amount of hand work with successive abrasive SiC grit up at least 2000, preferable 3-4000 to return the stone surface to what it was when he bought it.

 

[Odie]

For consideration........

Let's just say a slipstone's shape has been altered by the sandpaper on a flat surface method......just a hypothetical.

Now, we do know one thing, and that is that slipstones do wear with use. Virtually all of mine have some bow to them......not enough to effect their usefulness taking the burr off the interior of gouge flutes, but bowed, nonetheless.

With use, it really doesn't matter whether the original surface was the factory surface, or some sort of method the end user devised to change the shape.......because it's not the same surface. That original surface has been worn away, and is long gone......can we agree to that?

Now, the question seems to be what is the fineness of that surface that's the result of repeated use? Does it depend on the fineness of the material used to create that surface.......or, is it the physical qualities of the stone itself that determines the grade of surface it has worn to over time?

I'm strictly speaking on theory here, but my best guess is the stone will wear to a certain sustainable degree, no matter what the surface quality of the steel being honed is.........pure speculation on my part, but I do have some experience with creating a "bow" in the surface of slipstones, and I really don't see any difference from new, to well used, as far as the quality of the hone the stone is capable of.........

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

You'll be a while putting that 'bow' in a hard Ark stone.

The stone will, however, wear to the fineness of its structure so long as it is used on materials marginally softer than itself. If you create a surface with 60 gt. scratches on your stone, the ridges in the surface will wear first until they level out at the bottom of the 60 gt. valleys. As the ridges will tend to wear a bit faster, your stone should get back to its original fineness after a few years' use provided you take proper care of it. Until those sandpaper scratches disappear (wear away), the stone will give you an edge only as fine as the surface it carries. This is not rocket science or conceptual. A No. 60 abrasive surface (be it Aluminum Oxide, Silicon Carbide, Novaculite, or Georgia grits) will grind to a No. 60 surface, not finer.

Since I understood that you wanted to hone your tools to at least a 600 gt. edge, I figured you might not be happy with a 60gt. hone until it wore down or you redressed the stone surface. Hard Arkansas stones are used to produce very fine polished edges and are usually surfaced IIRC to at least 2000 gt.

Perhaps I was mistaken.

 

[MichaelMouse]

If you abrade the stone with a 60gt. surface, it will impart that same surface to the steel until and unless the stone is reground to a finer surface.

Assuming that Odie gets his slip reshaped to his liking without breaking it, to use it as the razor fine hone that it's intended for, he will have a fair amount of hand work with successive abrasive SiC grit up at least 2000, preferable 3-4000 to return the stone surface to what it was when he bought it.

Nope. Take the sharp part of your slip and rub against some steel. Abrades at the same rate the opposite larger radius side does, right? Can't do otherwise. The shape it would eventually create is another matter. With this as established fact, the condition of the surface would probably look and work about like the lapped stones at 2-320. Lots of surface area in contact.

After 4-600 on the disk sander, we normally started the polishing process with buffs and powders when making jewelery. FWIW, http://www.hallsproedge.com/FAQ.php#2 No sense at all dulling the natural stone with a 2000.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Nope. Take the sharp part of your slip and rub against some steel. Abrades at the same rate the opposite larger radius side does, right? Can't do otherwise. The shape it would eventually create is another matter. With this as established fact, the condition of the surface would probably look and work about like the lapped stones at 2-320. Lots of surface area in contact.

After 4-600 on the disk sander, we normally started the polishing process with buffs and powders when making jewelery. FWIW, http://www.hallsproedge.com/FAQ.php#2 No sense at all dulling the natural stone with a 2000.

Ships-In-The-Night . .

You lost me here Mr. Mouse. My Ark slip has small and large radii - no sharp edges. I have 1200 gt. sandpaper that when fresh, feels rougher than either of my Hard Arkansas stones. To be fair, my "Translucent" grade stones have been used and cared for some 40 years. It's possible that similar stones being marketed now are not surface graded as fine as mine were, so I can't speak to what passes in the trade these days.

More to the original point, if the surfaces of the two parts of the stone are graded to the same extent, whether 60 gt. or 6000 gt., they will, of course, effect the steel's surface/edge the same way. If, however, one is significantly rougher than the other, the rough surface will not produce as fine an edge on the steel as the smoother graded section will, although it will abrade the steel faster.

We weren't talking about how fast or slow the stone will abrade the steel, but rather how sharp and fine an edge will be produced.

You're not suggesting that a roughed 60 grit abrasive surface (produced by Odie's belt sander) will produce an edge on steel that is fine and sharp as that produced by a 1000 grit surface are you? Really?

 

[Odie]

Well, the hard Arkansas slipstone is reshaped to suit my needs. I tried the 6x48 belt, sandpaper on the table saw top, 60gt 6" grinding wheel, and abrasive cut-off disc on a die grinder. It's slow going if any real shaping is desired, and I wouldn't recommend it, except as an absolute necessity......but, it can be done. All in all, the 6" wheel worked out the best, but still really slow going. If you try to grind too much of a bite, the stone tends to chip......so, very slow going, whether you like it, or not!

It would be better to start out purchasing a smaller stone to begin with! 😀

ooc

 

[Odie]

Had to try out the altered slipstone, so decided to rough out a bowl this evening for a test.

Decided to try and smooth out the tiny imperfections on the stone, and sandpaper on top of a piece of floor mat rubber worked to that end very well......almost looks like a professional job..........almost! 🙄

While roughing the bowl, I re-honed about 4-5 times, and I can't tell any difference between this altered stone, and the the others I've been using, including the 600gt diamond cone. I was a little concerned because Mark seemed sure the surface would be rough and not as good as factory surface......but, I don't see any difference in performance, and to the touch it feels as smooth, or smoother.

I'd call this a success, overall........but still, the best route would have been to buy a smaller tapered stone to begin with.......😱

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Decided to try and smooth out the tiny imperfections on the stone, and sandpaper on top of a piece of floor mat rubber worked to that end very well

I believe that was the key effort, Odie, "regrading" the roughened surface back to one that will do what you bought the stone to do. You've spent a lot of time (and elbow grease) so I hope your result is worth it to you.🙂

 

[Odie]

I believe that was the key effort, Odie, "regrading" the roughened surface back to one that will do what you bought the stone to do. You've spent a lot of time (and elbow grease) so I hope your result is worth it to you.🙂

Yep....... sandpaper on top of the foam rubber was definitely an improvement to the final surface.

Was it all worth it?

If you consider what I got for the time, money, and effort invested.......probably not worth it, considering a narrower and cheaper stone is likely to be available.

On the other hand, considering "hands on" experience can only be had in one way, and one way only.........it increases the knowledge base in a way that can only be considered an asset. Who knows if this information will ever apply to something in my future.......but, if I steer my course by those who tell me it can't be done, then whether it can or can't be done will never be the issue, because it never will be done! 😉

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

but, if I steer my course by those who tell me it can't be done, then whether it can or can't be done will never be the issue, because it never will be done! 😉

Careful Bud. That view, akin to "Don't put beans in your ears", can make you a candidate for the Darwin Awards, Professional Class.😀

I wonder. If I hadn't raised the issue of your producing a rough-surfaced stone likely being inappropriate as a fine hone, would you have gone the extra mile of regrading the surface?

 

[Odie]

Careful Bud. That view, akin to "Don't put beans in your ears", can make you a candidate for the Darwin Awards, Professional Class.😀

I wonder. If I hadn't raised the issue of your producing a rough-surfaced stone likely being inappropriate as a fine hone, would you have gone the extra mile of regrading the surface?

Absolutely.

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Then you should have put that in your original post. From what you wrote, it looked to me like you were going to try to hone your edges with a 60 gt. surface on your slip.

 

[Odie]

Then you should had put that in your original post. From what you wrote, it looked to me like you were going to try to hone your edges with a 60 gt. surface on your slip.

Well Mark, that makes several incorrect assumptions you've made in this thread.

.....along with giving some incorrect information.

In a way, I do appreciate your input......because it made me consider possibilities I might have encountered, but had not considered. I proceeded to do what I thought might be possible.......even though I was aware that failure might be the result. It didn't, however, cause me to give up the effort, simply because you speculated on something it appears as though you haven't actually done........😀

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Well Mark, that makes several incorrect assumptions you've made in this thread.

.....along with giving some incorrect information.

In a way, I do appreciate your input......because it made me consider possibilities I might have encountered, but had not considered. I proceeded to do what I thought might be possible.......even though I was aware that failure might be the result. It didn't, however, cause me to give up the effort, simply because you speculated on something it appears as though you haven't actually done........😀

ooc

Assumptions? Nah, I took you at your word as posted. I've done enough work in stone and put in enough time making my own tools over the past 50 years to be at least somewhat conversant on issues that crop up.

If you had said "Can I thin out a stone slip with abrasives and then regrade it to its original surface to use as a hone?" my responses would have been different. Turned out you didn't get too far with your original 6x48 belt idea.

Perhaps this is an example of "To ask a good question, you need to know 90% of the answer and put what you do know in the question."

It is, however, pointless to discuss it further. Enjoy your slip stone and may all of your edges be razor sharp.😉

 

[Odie]

It is, however, pointless to discuss it further. Enjoy your slip stone and may all of your edges be razor sharp.😉

I was thinking the same thing.......😀

Results are the only thing that counts.......😉

later, Mark........

ooc

 

[Odie]

Just thought I'd show you the results.

The reshaped stone is on the left. I've thinned two walls so that the edge is progressively smaller than original. There is a rounded corner.

This stone now gets into the bottom of my 3/8" (1/2" shank) gouges. The other hard Arkansas stone does not get into the bottom of these 3/8" gouges. The new stone also is useful for smaller gouges utilizing the tapered side on the reverse side.

I've also altered my grinder stand caddy for my most used stones and credit card diamond hones for the new stone addition.

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Nice little caddy, Odie, but you'd best attend to those stones as they're showing signs of being metal-clogged. Use them dry, without a lube to remove the metal from the pores, and you'll be back redressing them (or buying new ones) in fairly short order.

 

[Odie]

Nice little caddy, Odie, but you'd best attend to those stones as they're showing signs of being metal-clogged. Use them dry, without a lube to remove the metal from the pores, and you'll be back redressing them (or buying new ones) in fairly short order.

Thanks......the caddy works well for me.

Nothing clogged there, Mark........

ooc