Red Oak Blues

[John Hammonds]

Bottom line: adding Borax to Anchorseal seems to prevent molding of green turned blanks. Can anyone confirm or refute based on experience?

The long version: I roughed out a red oak (Quercus nigra) bowl last week and lathered it up with Anchorseal as I usually do. Within two days of sitting in the shop (not controlled environment but indoors) the piece was covered in black mold. So I donned the respirator and turned it final and got rid of the mold. The molding shouldn't have been a surprise given the species, the fact it was green (green Red Oak ... an oxymoron?) and the warm humid conditions here in Georgia, but I hadn't turned red oak for years and forgot. The hickory blanks I roughed out and sealed the same day didn't mold at all and were right next to the red oak. I like using Anchorseal and started thinking about how to prevent the mold. I had read an old study about soaking green wood in PEG and remembered it mentioned adding Borax to prevent molding. So, I added a handful and a half (very scientific) to about a gallon, stirred it up, roughed out another red oak bowl, lathered it up, and waited. Two rainy days have gone by and no mold. Admittedly, the evidence is anecdotal and the sample size small (well, one actually) but, as they say, early results are promising. Anybody else out there tried it and had success? Or am I on to possibly the greatest scientific breakthrough of the 21st century?

 

[John Hammonds]

P.S.: for proof that Borax prevents and/or kills black mold see http://blacktoxicmolds.com/borax-kill-mold.php. But they don't mention adding it to Anchorseal ... that could be as big as the internet.

 

[Paul Gilbert]

Borates are proven fungicide. I think that a mixture of boric acid and borax would be even better. Maybe add in some ethylene glycol.
http://alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/homemade.html

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Borax is very slightly toxic and boric acid is much more so. Cosider your intended use of the turning.

 

[John Hammonds]

Thanks, Paul. Very interesting article .. adds the technical background to what I'm trying to do. Read an old post by Bill B. in which he said Anchorseal has PEG in it so it looks like my home brew is close to those in the article sans the boric acid. If my quick & dirty approach doesn't work I'll try a concoction from your article. I've attached the study on PEG that I alluded to. Note the mention of Borax on bottom of page 6.
Also, not to be argumentative, but I wouldn't use ethylene glycol. Had a friend lose a very nice german shepherd about 25 years ago because it drank some antifreeze with ethylene glycol. Animals are attracted to its taste and my dogs are often in the shop.

 

[John Hammonds]

Borax is very slightly toxic and boric acid is much more so. Cosider your intended use of the turning.

More good info. Am trying to be harmful to the micro not the macro organisms. Am liking simple concoction even more. Thanks Dennis.

 

[JeffSmith]

I’ve used a spray of weak boric acid on blanks that show molding for years. Like a lot of naturally occurring compounds, it can be toxic in very large doses, but the amounts you’re exposed to is minimal. Use common sense safety precautions, wear gloves and a mask when mixing, keep it away from children and pets. Its used in antiseptics as well as pesticides.
Unlike clorine bleach solutions, it doesn’t lose effectiveness when the water carrier evaporates, but leaves a weak residue on the surface that helps control mold growth for a long period of time. I rinse off treated blanks with a good spray from the garden hose and dry them before finish turning.
Up here in the wet upper lefthand corner of the country mold can be an issue. I keep a spray bottle handy when I see blanks starting to grow stuff - it seems to last forever when mixed.

 

[Mike Johnson]

There are a number of "safe" chemicals that can be used to kill molds, your main goal is to provide
and environment that the molds will not prosper on. Vinegar, hydrogen peroxide and ammonia will
kill mold spores. There are also a number of enzymes that will also destroy mold spores. Changing
the PH of the water and surface area of your wood is another approach to preventing the mold spores
from being able to grow on your wood. Baking Soda is a safe product that can easily be mixed in water
and applied to your wood surface to kill mold spores. Citric Acid is a common food additive that could
be used to change the PH of the water and surface area of the wood while it dries.

 

[Pete Blair]

I’ve used a spray of weak boric acid on blanks that show molding for years. Like a lot of naturally occurring compounds, it can be toxic in very large doses, but the amounts you’re exposed to is minimal. Use common sense safety precautions, wear gloves and a mask when mixing, keep it away from children and pets. Its used in antiseptics as well as pesticides.
Unlike clorine bleach solutions, it doesn’t lose effectiveness when the water carrier evaporates, but leaves a weak residue on the surface that helps control mold growth for a long period of time. I rinse off treated blanks with a good spray from the garden hose and dry them before finish turning.
Up here in the wet upper lefthand corner of the country mold can be an issue. I keep a spray bottle handy when I see blanks starting to grow stuff - it seems to last forever when mixed.

Jeff what sort of mix and what products do you use? I'm a little further north but have a very similar climate and problem.

 

[Bill Boehme]

There are actually six formulations of Anchorseal ...

• original Anchorseal which is a paraffin wax emulsion of approximately half water and half wax
• original Anchorseal Winter formula with propylene glycol antifreeze
• original Anchorseal Winter formula with methanol antifreeze
  
• Anchorseal 2 which has about half as much paraffin wax plus unspecified "natural polymers"
• Anchorseal 2 Winter formula with propylene glycol antifreeze
• Anchorseal 2 Winter formula with methanol antifreeze

My club buys the original plain Jane Anchorseal in 55 gallon drums. We tried Anchorseal 2 when it first came out ... and, like the success of New Coke, it wasn't well received by the club members. I don't know for certain, but the winter formula may have evolved over time. Or, I could have confused propylene glycol with polyethylene glycol. One time I thought that I had made a mistake, but on further examination I found that I was mistaken.

 

[John Torchick]

Bill., my father was only wrong once and he said that was when he thought he was wrong.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Correction : boric acid is of a low toxicity and is even used in eyewash. Borax on the other hand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax has a lot of problems. For both inhalation is the most harmful. Years ago (ok when i was a baby) they put boric acid in babay powder due to its characteristic effect of repelling water . When inhaled it was fatal to babies due to waterproofing their lungs.

 

[JeffSmith]

Jeff what sort of mix and what products do you use? I'm a little further north but have a very similar climate and problem.

Pete - Its been a while since I mixed it up. A gallon lasts me a couple years...but I went with the 1 cup boric acid crystals to a gallon of water recipe in this link.
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/make-boric-acid-spray-83050.html

The boric acid came from Ace hardware - just plain boric acid crystals, its a yellow powder. A package is about 4 - 6 cups. Follow the common sense handling instructions in the link.

There are different formulas - adding sugar or hydrogen peroxide depending on what you want it to do - Kill mold, pesticide, remove mold, etc. I‘ve been using just plain boric acid/water, works fine. I put it a spray bottle, label it and keep it ready when needed.

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Correction : boric acid is of a low toxicity and is even used in eyewash. Borax on the other hand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax has a lot of problems. For both inhalation is the most harmful. Years ago (ok when i was a baby) they put boric acid in babay powder due to its characteristic effect of repelling water . When inhaled it was fatal to babies due to waterproofing their lungs.

I do not pretend to be an expert on toxicology, but the the following government site paints quite a different picture of boric acid.
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002485.htm While I would guess that the amounts that would ever be passed from say a salad bowl to any one person would be minute, I am not sure that I would want to tell a customer that it contains no toxic materials.

 

[JeffSmith]

All - your concern is noted, but I think it is misplaced. I’m not a toxicologist either, but careful reading of the warnings tells me that, while boric acid in its crystalline form is definely toxic, care in handling while mixing, as noted on the label, is relatively safe with normal precautions - gloves, a mask and eye protection. Once mixed, handle carefully, limit exposure and wash your hands before putting them in your mouth. Pretty much the same cautions govt sites reccommend when handling common chlorine bleach.
Used as a pesticide, people used to put a line of the powder/crystalline form around buildings. That leads to potential exposure to people, kids and pets.
I think we are, for the most part responsible adults who appreciate that a lot of what we as turners handle on a regular basis can kill you if mistreated. according to the govt site: Boric acid is naturally ocurring in most soils, poses no risk to fish or fowl and, in its diluted form, is less of a threat to people and the environment than most of the solvents we use regularly.
Heck, nearly everything in your kitchen can kill you if you consume enough of it.
I’ve used it for years when mold becomes problematic on blanks. It does not migrate below the surface, and is used exclusively on roughed blanks, not finished pieces. Rinse before final turning.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Heck, nearly everything in your kitchen can kill you if you consume enough of it.

They definitely need to put a warning label on Ben & Jerry's Cherry Garcia. Eating a whole pint in one sitting can be deadly.

 

[John Hammonds]

Thanks for all the replies and advice and I apologize for starting a toxicological argument. I'm convinced I've found a safe and effective way to seal endgrain and prevent mold all at the same time. I add about a cup of 20 Mule Team Borax to about a gallon of sealer and stir. I bought the sealer from Highland's and think it's regular anchorseal but I really don't care. I'm good to go.

And, oh by the way, 20 Mule Team Borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate. Its MSDS shows an HMIS rating of 1, the same as table salt. The EPA has no restrictions on its use. In the anhydrous form, however, borax can be damaging to the lungs and may be what Gerald was rightly refering to as a danger to children. In its hydrated form it's safe, dissolves readily in water, and I can steal it out of the laundry room. As with any chemical, follow label directions and keep out of reach of children and pets.

Thanks again. Now, where did I put that lathe?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Thanks for all the replies and advice and I apologize for starting a toxicological argument. I'm convinced I've found a safe and effective way to seal endgrain and prevent mold all at the same time. I add about a cup of 20 Mule Team Borax to about a gallon of sealer and stir. I bought the sealer from Highland's and think it's regular anchorseal but I really don't care. I'm good to go.

And, oh by the way, 20 Mule Team Borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate. Its MSDS shows an HMIS rating of 1, the same as table salt. The EPA has no restrictions on its use. In the anhydrous form, however, borax can be damaging to the lungs and may be what Gerald was rightly refering to as a danger to children. In its hydrated form it's safe, dissolves readily in water, and I can steal it out of the laundry room. As with any chemical, follow label directions and keep out of reach of children and pets.

Thanks again. Now, where did I put that lathe?

Wow, 20MTB! All this nostalgia make me want to go back to using a wringer washing machine.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

There are actually six formulations of Anchorseal ...

• original Anchorseal which is a paraffin wax emulsion of approximately half water and half wax
• original Anchorseal Winter formula with propylene glycol antifreeze
• original Anchorseal Winter formula with methanol antifreeze
  
• Anchorseal 2 which has about half as much paraffin wax plus unspecified "natural polymers"
• Anchorseal 2 Winter formula with propylene glycol antifreeze
• Anchorseal 2 Winter formula with methanol antifreeze

My club buys the original plain Jane Anchorseal in 55 gallon drums. We tried Anchorseal 2 when it first came out ... and, like the success of New Coke, it wasn't well received by the club members. I don't know for certain, but the winter formula may have evolved over time. Or, I could have confused propylene glycol with polyethylene glycol. One time I thought that I had made a mistake, but on further examination I found that I was mistaken.

After many years, I have started using anchor seal again. I dilute mine 50% with water, yes, I'm cheap, lol, still works. Only use it with the blanks for boxes that go in the Kiln for about 6 weeks. Also some rough turned boxes get coated too. I dont seal koa or anything else that I bring, I let it check, then I just cut off the ends....

 

[Bill Boehme]

After many years, I have started using anchor seal again. I dilute mine 50% with water, yes, I'm cheap, lol, still works. Only use it with the blanks for boxes that go in the Kiln for about 6 weeks. Also some rough turned boxes get coated too. I dont seal koa or anything else that I bring, I let it check, then I just cut off the ends....

I need to spank you for being cheap, but we're all cheap about one thing or another. I use sandpaper until I don't know which side has the grit.

According to the Anchorseal directions, you're supposed to apply it "to the drip" and after it dries, apply a second coat. Several woodturners that I know spread it so thin that a gallon could be used for a whole forest. I get it cheap because our club buys it in 55 gallon drums so I slop it on and don't try to be neat. My opinion is that watering it down means that you are coating the ends of logs with mostly water and a little wax. A dilution of 50% water is way beyond being frugal. I don't know about Hawaii, but water wouldn't last very long in the hot Texas climate.

 

[john lucas]

In my amatuer testing over the last 5 or more years of paying attention to what I'm doing 2 coats of anchorseal works much better than one here in Tennessee. I have been trying all sorts of things, parrafin wax dipping, stretch wrap, plastic bags and anchorseal. Just looking at the pros and cons of each. 2 coats of anchorseal still wins. The wax is the worst about growing mold underneath and the wax tends to peel off of large bowl blanks after a year or more. The stretch wrap is also very bad about growing mold but physically lasts a long time. I use it mostly on fresh cut wood to get it home and give me time to cut and anchorseal later. Plastic bags are really quick when I'm out cutting the logs or when I first get them home. Set one end on the ground and cover the other end with trash bags. This lasts about a month before they start to deteriorate but that's usually enough time for me to be able to cut and anchorseal them.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I need to spank you for being cheap, but we're all cheap about one thing or another. I use sandpaper until I don't know which side has the grit.

According to the Anchorseal directions, you're supposed to apply it "to the drip" and after it dries, apply a second coat. Several woodturners that I know spread it so thin that a gallon could be used for a whole forest. I get it cheap because our club buys it in 55 gallon drums so I slop it on and don't try to be neat. My opinion is that watering it down means that you are coating the ends of logs with mostly water and a little wax. A dilution of 50% water is way beyond being frugal. I don't know about Hawaii, but water wouldn't last very long in the hot Texas climate.

LOL. I should take a picture of one my blanks in the kiln. To me, there is an obvious "film" coating the wood... I have tried coated and uncoated, I dont want to slow down the drying too long, that would be defeating the purpose. But, With anchor seal I have a better success rate of drying without cracking in the kiln. Outside of the kiln, nothing gets anchor seal.. Anchor seal is very expensive here, the shipping kills you...

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'm sure that you have higher relative humidity than it is here. Kelly Dunn says that wood won't dry in Hawaii unless he dries it in a kiln. Here in north Texas, roughed out bowl blanks that have been coated with Anchorseal will dry in two to five months depending on thickness and species. I can live with that. It turns out that most roughed out pieces don't get their final turning until much later anyway ... sometimes years later.

Let me see if I have this straight ... you put wood in the kiln to speed up drying, but coat it with Anchorseal to slow down the drying. I knew a fellow who said that he invented a microwave crock pot.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Lol. Woods like Apple or Chico wood split and Crack without anchor seal in the kiln. I have some Milo without it and after a few weeks has lost a lot of weight without cracking. Kou dries good too.. Koa warps some... White Algarrobo splits with or without anchor seal...