• November Turning Challenge: Puahala Calabash! (click here for details)
  • Sign up for the AAW Forum Pre-Holiday Swap by Monday, November 4th (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Ted Pelfrey for "Forest Floor" being selected as Turning of the Week for November 4, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Recently sharpened spindle gouge tip broke off during catch

Joined
Dec 28, 2022
Messages
5
Likes
0
Location
Champaign, IL
Hi, new turner and new forum member. I recently purchased a gouge sharpening jig. In order to learn the motions, I practiced reshaping an old carbon spindle gouge that I got when I first purchased my lathe. Sharpening seemed to go okay and it cut fine. However, when I was widening a cove, I got careless and caught the left part of the gouge which then broke off!

Bad cove technique aside, I'm wondering what caused this and if it was related to my grinding technique. I used an 80 grit wheel to do the reshaping, and the wheel was spinning ~1400 RPM. The coloring on the bevel looked normal, though the cutting edge at the center of the gouge did seem less uniform than usual. The tool was not hot when the catch happened - it was 20 or so minutes after I had finished reshaping.

I'm assuming it was related to the grinding, and if it is, I'm curious what I should have done differently. Thanks!

IMG_3733.jpgWWWIMG_3732.jpgWWWIMG_3734.jpgWWWIMG_3735.jpg
 

Odie

Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 22, 2006
Messages
7,250
Likes
11,243
Location
Misssoula, MT
Hello.....I've never seen a break like that. It will be interesting to see what a few other turners have to say about this. I'm assuming the metal was pretty brittle to do that. I have a few of those old carbon steel beginners tools that come in a cheap set, as well.....haven't used them for quite a while now, though. You should move up to some better tools as quickly as you can afford them. Is your grinding wheel one of those that comes with a new grinder?

From what I can see of the bottom right photo, the cutting edge looks a little ragged, and the bevel looks a bit rough for an 80gt wheel. I've been using an 80gt SG Norton wheel for a long time now, and the bevel looks smoother on my tools than yours. I do hand hone my edges with a diamond hone, though. Are you using your spindle gouge straight from the grinder? If you are using that cutting edge, you might have to force the cut with too much pressure......which may be the cause of the bad catch that precipitated the break.

Sorry....I guess I'm not being much help with your metal issues.....

-----odie-----
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
13,018
Likes
5,425
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
Thanks for the heads up, odie. The thread has been moved to the Getting Started forum.

The break is probably due to technique or brittle steel. I don't think sharpening is the cause although the bevel seems to be rather rough with a ragged edge on the remaining part of the cutting edge. You might be applying too much pressure against the grinding wheel ... only apply feather-light pressure.

The surface of the steel looks rather unusual ... reminds me of filiform corrosion. Is there a plating (chrome?) on the steel or is there some heavy rusting going on?

corrosion1.jpg

Also, what is that in the picture below that looks like the edge of the flute ground away?

corrosion2.jpg
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,977
Likes
5,475
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Possibly a defect in the steel, corrosion.

I have seen similar edge damage on tools that hit objects in the wood - nails, stones, etc.
Dropped tools landing nose first on concrete get damaged too.

Did the edge hit the tool rest in the catch?
 

Roger Wiegand

Beta Tester
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
832
Likes
982
Location
Wayland, MA
Website
www.carouselorgan.com
Breaks like that can happen if you quench high speed steel tools in water while sharpening, a bad habit left over from the days of carbon steel tools. The thermal shock is sufficient to cause cracks in the steel.
 
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
1,900
Likes
1,493
Location
Lebanon, Missouri
I have had this happen a couple of times with a hi quality m42 bowl gouge - very heavy roughing interrupted cuts on rough blanks and likely caught a hard inclusion, so it can happen.

Agree the bevel surface finish looks excessively rough for 80gr, time to dress the wheel and reduce pressure when grinding. The rough cutting edge contains “premade cracks”, weakening the edge substantially and contributing heavily to the failure mode.

Old steel could also have some corrosion to contribute to the failure mode. Some polishing of the flute may be in order.

Tools do not get hot enough during typical weekender wood turning activities to effect carbon or hss steel temper. If this carbon tool had been overheated during grinding (I see no indication - color), it would have made the steel softer and more ductile, and less likely to fail in this manner.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2021
Messages
1,362
Likes
1,204
Location
Roulette, PA
Website
www.reallyruralwoodworks.com
The surface of the steel looks rather unusual ... reminds me of filiform corrosion. Is there a plating (chrome?) on the steel or is there some heavy rusting going on?


Also, what is that in the picture below that looks like the edge of the flute ground away?
Edge of flute: Looks like that stamped steel continential style gouge set I was given with the H.F. Lathe (Stamped then hardened, maybe?) likewise with the steel surface - looks like one of those cheapo made in china gouges you might have bought back in the 1980's from Harbor Freight (Like the cheap $19.99 mechanics tool sets)

Far as how the chip happened, metal looks to me like possibly poor hardening (brittle steel) but then I'm not a metallurgist.

But like others, I'd probably recommend getting a better quality tool (Given you want to learn sharpening I presume before splurging on expensive quality gouge, I might suggest Benjamin's Best from PSI woodworking - reasonable quality starter level tools with price that reflects that fact)
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
5,695
Likes
3,045
Location
Eugene, OR
I am wondering about the metal. Forged metals generally don't have the big grain particles like your gouge does. That is more common with cast metals. Note here, only thing I really know about metal is how to grind it. A break like that says bad/poor metal quality to me. I have experienced just about every catch there is that can be made, and that type of metal failure has never resulted.

robo hippy
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2022
Messages
5
Likes
0
Location
Champaign, IL
Hello.....I've never seen a break like that. It will be interesting to see what a few other turners have to say about this. I'm assuming the metal was pretty brittle to do that. I have a few of those old carbon steel beginners tools that come in a cheap set, as well.....haven't used them for quite a while now, though. You should move up to some better tools as quickly as you can afford them. Is your grinding wheel one of those that comes with a new grinder?

From what I can see of the bottom right photo, the cutting edge looks a little ragged, and the bevel looks a bit rough for an 80gt wheel. I've been using an 80gt SG Norton wheel for a long time now, and the bevel looks smoother on my tools than yours. I do hand hone my edges with a diamond hone, though. Are you using your spindle gouge straight from the grinder? If you are using that cutting edge, you might have to force the cut with too much pressure......which may be the cause of the bad catch that precipitated the break.

Sorry....I guess I'm not being much help with your metal issues.....

-----odie-----
Thanks odie. It was the grinding wheel that came with the grinder. Reading Bill's message, I think I might have applied too much pressure. I lightly honed the edges with a 600gt card before using the tool.

Thanks for the heads up, odie. The thread has been moved to the Getting Started forum.

The break is probably due to technique or brittle steel. I don't think sharpening is the cause although the bevel seems to be rather rough with a ragged edge on the remaining part of the cutting edge. You might be applying too much pressure against the grinding wheel ... only apply feather-light pressure.

The surface of the steel looks rather unusual ... reminds me of filiform corrosion. Is there a plating (chrome?) on the steel or is there some heavy rusting going on?

Also, what is that in the picture below that looks like the edge of the flute ground away?
Thanks for moving this thread. I definitely applied more than feather-light pressure so I will work on that. There are darker spots on the tool which I didn't think were anything, but maybe that is problematic. I will try to post another picture later today that shows it. As someone else mentioned, I believe that is the edge of the flute but I will try to get a better picture of it.

Possibly a defect in the steel, corrosion.

I have seen similar edge damage on tools that hit objects in the wood - nails, stones, etc.
Dropped tools landing nose first on concrete get damaged too.

Did the edge hit the tool rest in the catch?
Not sure if the edge hit the tool rest in the catch, but it's possible. It happened pretty quick.

Edge of flute: Looks like that stamped steel continential style gouge set I was given with the H.F. Lathe (Stamped then hardened, maybe?) likewise with the steel surface - looks like one of those cheapo made in china gouges you might have bought back in the 1980's from Harbor Freight (Like the cheap $19.99 mechanics tool sets)

Far as how the chip happened, metal looks to me like possibly poor hardening (brittle steel) but then I'm not a metallurgist.

But like others, I'd probably recommend getting a better quality tool (Given you want to learn sharpening I presume before splurging on expensive quality gouge, I might suggest Benjamin's Best from PSI woodworking - reasonable quality starter level tools with price that reflects that fact)
Yes, I think it is a cheap HF set. There isn't much labeling on anything. I do have a Benjamin's Best gouge and a couple Artisan ones from Craft Supplies USA, but thought it would be smart to test on a more-or-less throw away carbon steel one. I will try again with the Benjamin's Best gouge.

Thanks all for your input.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2022
Messages
12
Likes
7
Location
Port Hope, ON
If it is carbon steel it's probably in the 1075 to 1084 range. What I'm writing can be applied to most carbon steels if does happen to be something else. The first thing I see when
I look at the area where the gouge has broken is the very course grain structure of the steel. It's so course that I can only assume that whoever made it skipped the normalizing part
of the heat treating process. Normalizing is done to refine the grain structure of the steel, you do this up to three times prior to the heat/quench and temper part of the process.
The picture I included shows 1084 steel (the top two pieces) that has been normalized. The You can see that the grain structure is much more refined than what you see on your gouge,
it's still a bit too coarse for a great cutting tool though. The bottom piece is 5160, it's a different steel but the grain structure is ideal and how the two top pieces should look. If the
entire heat treat process goes correctly the steel will be hard, tough and flexible and the grain structure would look similar to the bottom piece.

It's also likely that the gouge was never tempered properly, after you quench the steel in oil or water it's extremely hard but also very brittle. Oil is usually used on carbon steels
with thin cross sections. Water quenching thinner cross sections can cause cracking in the steel. Carbon steel can shatter like glass if it's dropped after quenching. Tempering changes
the mechanical properties of the steel, the overall hardness of the steel decreases while it's toughness increases, it goes from a piece that can shatter like glass to being flexible.
The same process is used to make springs.

If the steel is heated too far above it's critical temperature prior to quenching the grain size can also rapidly increase. All those rough grinding marks on the side of the gouge create opportunities
for the steel to break if it's brittle from a poor heat treat. It's better to have all surfaces smooth on a carbon steel cutting tool, even if it's properly made. It's only flexible to a certain point, any
rough surfaces and gouges in the metal from coarse grinding are possible fracture points.

The pitting and discoloration (scale left from heat treating) of the gouge is similar to what you'd see on tools made in a blacksmith style forge. Normally enough steel is left to grind and polish out any and pitting.
It may be a home built tool or just very old. Carbon steels are great cutting tools if properly made, they hold a razor sharp edge and are reasonably tough. I still use them if I need a
custom cutting tool for a one off job. High speed steel, carbide and other tool steels have mostly replaced carbon steel cutting tools these days.

All that said your better off getting a new gouge. Unless you go through the normalization, heat, quench and temper process the gouge will break again. Even then your not guaranteed
a good result, the process varies slightly for each grade of steel. It's better to find a new tool than mess around with a mystery steel.

1085 steel normalizing.jpg
 
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Messages
293
Likes
206
Location
McKinney,Texas
Looks like porosity in the steel. Caused by improper heat treat HSS can contain porosity also. The Powdered metal process reduces this phenomenon greatly but doesn’t completely eliminate it.
I don’t think that your sharpening had anything to with the breakage.
 
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
2,570
Likes
2,015
Location
Bozeman, MT
Good advice above.

One thought that occurs to me is, if you're going to use that tool or any other tool from the same maker, you'd better have really really good eye protection. The steel that broke off went somewhere. If it penetrates your eye, it's a very, very bad thing, probably costing you the sight in that eye.

Personally, I recommend burying that tool in the wilderness somewhere so no one ever uses it again. (oops, just noticed you're in Illinois, home of no wilderness.)
 
Joined
Dec 29, 2022
Messages
947
Likes
1,029
Location
West Central, IL
Good advice above.

One thought that occurs to me is, if you're going to use that tool or any other tool from the same maker, you'd better have really really good eye protection. The steel that broke off went somewhere. If it penetrates your eye, it's a very, very bad thing, probably costing you the sight in that eye.

Personally, I recommend burying that tool in the wilderness somewhere so no one ever uses it again. (oops, just noticed you're in Illinois, home of no wilderness.)
Corn and bean fields don't count as wilderness?
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,977
Likes
5,475
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Personally, I recommend burying that tool in the wilderness somewhere so no one ever uses it again. (oops, just noticed you're in Illinois, home of no wilderness.)
but that would take the wilderness status from that area. :)

Maybe a metal recycled so it could live again as a Toyota.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Messages
2,112
Likes
1,097
Location
La Grange, IL
I agree with others, I would no longer trust that tool for turning wood, but I think it (and others from that set) still could have one remaining use.

You mentioned that you are using a grinding jig. The business end of a gouge is a very complex geometric form, and typically there are a lot settings on a grinding jig that can be changed to determine the form of the gouge tip. You could use these suspect tools to study the effect on the gouge tip of changing one of these parameters at a time. Especially while you are using stone wheels. This would be a great learning excercise. Even though you would not put the tool to use, you could see the change in gouge shape that results. Be sure to take lots of photos and keep good notes.
 
Back
Top