Ray Key Grind

[KEW]

I recently watched Ray Key's video - The Capsule Box
In it he refers to the short nose ground on his spindle gouge which allows him to rub the bevel through most of the curve while hollowing the box. He also has an interesting 1" or so sweep back on the right side of his gouge.
He talks about it as if he's already spent time describing it (must be in an earlier video in his series).
I'm curious about his grinds. Can anyone describe it or does anyone know a good link to photos or descriptions?
TIA!

 

[Mark Wollschlager]

This is a shot of some tools Cindy Drozda had at a class I took.
She said that the gouge is a Ray Key grind, tornado or something like that.
You had to know how to use it, or spend the time to learn.

You might be able to zoom on the tool, I will look for a better shot.
small image
Large image 1.5mb
I don't have a side profile shot, sorry.

Mark.

 

[Tom Lewis]

I just watched a Ray Key video and wondered the same thing. This may not be much help but Craft Supplies sells a Ray Key spindle gouge #988-3107 in 3/8" and #988-3108 in 1/2". According to the catalog description, this spindle gouge has the same grind that Ray Key uses in his videos. Craft Supplies also has a Ray Key skew chisel, and a square end side scraper.

 

[MichaelMouse]

What does he use for a rest? Must be a hardened knife-edge to have damaged the gouge that badly. The back-cut technique is all I can think of that would hack the top of the tool. Here's another picture http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?referrerid=5960&t=89003

I grind mine pointy, so both sides are used. With the point you can plunge anywhere into the endgrain without much danger of skating. It would take me longer to set up the chuck and bore a starting hole than it takes to use the gouge, and I don't have to worry about the point on the bit going too far.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/a63b77ab.jpg

You have to finish the bottom with a ring or broad fingernail gouge, of course. The point does leave ridging.

 

[john lucas]

I just spent a week with Ray Key. Great guy and extremely knowledgeable. The grind you are talking about is on his 3/8" bowl gouge. The nose was ground to 55 degrees. The right hand side is ground back about 2". I'm not sure I know how to describe how he uses this. It's used to refine the outside of vessels. He uses it with the handle down similar to the way I do a pull cut but he's pushing the tool and taking very fine shavings.
You put the handle down so the tool cutting edge is at about 45 degrees or less to the wood. then touch the heel of the bevel on the wood and slowly rotate the tool until the cutting edge starts to cut. Then you push the tool from left to right around the vessel to clean up the cuts. This is best on hollow vessels and vases and can be used on steep sided bowls.
The other way the tool is used is to put the flute up. This would be cutting from the rim of a bowl down to the foot if the foot is mounted in a chuck. The flute is up with the heel of the bevel touching. Rotate the tool to the right until it starts to cut and then push it toward the bottom taking very fine cuts. The handle is roughly level on this cut. If you try to take to deep a cut or if you rotate the tool too far into the wood you will get a pretty good catch so do this gently and take a fine shaving.
I would volunteer to take a couple of photos but I won't be home until very late tonight so I won't have time to do it until tomorrow evening.

 

[GeorgeH]

Say, John, the way you describe it I am left with the impression that the technique (and the tool) replicate the shear cut using a fingernail grind bowl gouge. I grind an edge that is very similar to the MM's example, just not quite as pointy, and I use the bevel of the point to determine the direction the tool enters and moves through the cut. I appreciate the uniqueness of the Ray Key grind but I don't see any real advantage to it.

 

[john lucas]

George I do the same cuts, more or less with what you would call an Ellsworth or Irish grind. I have a gouge that has very long wings that I ground many years ago and learned to use it similar to what Ray does. I did this when turning hand mirrors. the advantage of the longer wing grind is, it is more forgiving because you have a longer straight area to work with. If you have a wing as short as an Ellsworth grind you have to be careful to stay near the middle.
I noticed that Greame Priddle has very long wings on his gouges and also Avalino Samuel. He made his longer for the same reason I did. I use it as a pull cut and it cuts like a skew in this fashion and is easier to control than a short wing.

 

[GeorgeH]

Yeah, John, we're on the same page. If I understand you correctly, you've concluded that the Ray Key grind is superior to the Ellsworth? MM found an image (see his post) that I could work from if you think it's worth the effort. I've got an orphan 3/8 gouge that would appreciate some attention.

 

[KEW]

Thanks, that gives me a much more specific idea of what his grind is like. I assume the 55° is the included angle between the flute to the bevel?

I appreciate the uniqueness of the Ray Key grind but I don't see any real advantage to it.

One thing I know about turning is that there are usually lots of ways to perform the same tasks. In this case, Ray Key feels the swept back edge gives him a way to better smooth out convex curves on spindles. However, It is also pretty limited. From watching him use it, I do not believe you have enough access to use it for a typical bead except where it is on the tailstock end of the project so the handle starts parallel to the lathe and gets pulled around so it is across the bed and pointed away from you.
PS: Anyone, please correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[john lucas]

You are correct about the included angle. I hope I didn't say the grind was superior to the Ellsworth. Both are good but for different reasons and different cuts.