Question on spray finishes - lacquer, acrylic and fixatives

[Donna Banfield]

I have a question regarding the use of the following three finishes (sprayed): Lacquer, spray acrylic, Krylon Fixative (trade name). [This question has been cross-posted on two other turning forums that I visit].

I am an oil finishes user for all my woodturnings, but some of my work that is highly carved or detailed, oil finishes are not possible - impossible to get the excess out of the tiny crevasses. I have used spray lacquer and spray acrylic, several coats. I recall that some of you have used Krylon Fixative (Andi Wolfe, for one) on some of the carved and painted pieces, and am wondering about the reasons.

One reason for lacquer is that the successive coats 'blend or melt into the previous coats. That would be a plus if I were doing hollow forms like Joe Landon or Andy DiPeitro, where that deep luster enhances the appearance. But the type of carving/texturing on my work would not benefit from that luster or Chatoyance. The cons for using lacquer are also numerous - finicky to apply depending on temperature and relative humidity; need of a well-ventilated area in which to spray the finish, and in the winter, where I'm heating my studio in New Hampshire with a pellet stove, open flames are a very bad idea around lacquer.

So that brings me to spray acrylics in the rattle can. They don't see to be as sensitive to heat and humidity, and don't have the same problem with respect to fumes (correct me if I am wrong here, please). They cost more, but the trade off might be worth it? I'm also concerned about the 'flexibility' of acrylics compared to lacquer. Will I see the acrylic finish krackle over time as the wood expands/contracts as it reacts to the changes in weather, temperature and seasons? Is lacquer more flexible a finish allowing for these unavoidable issues?

Any insight that anyone with experience has on these issues would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Morning Donna,

I suspect that the answer to your problem is the class of finishes which you haven't named, that being the waterborne acrylic lacquers. You won't, however, find them in rattle cans, so if you're compressorless and/or spray-gun-challenged, you'll have to move out of your comfort zone to take advantage.

The Target Coating line of finishes is one of the leaders along with General Finishes' products. You will get 100 percent burn-in by successive coats (like solvent lacquer) when used as directed and these finishes are tough, being used and certified by the KCMI (Kitchen Cabinet Mfgrs). I use them on turnings, applying with a small HVLP mini-gun, and most all of my flatwork is done this way. The attached pic is an example; three mini-urns done for a friend and associate's family. What you see is straight "off the gun" meaning not buffed or rubbed out.

You can get some expert advice on these finishes by calling Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing in Ohio.

PS: I also use Fix-a-tiff and matte finish Krylon as a quick and easy sealer on turnings. They are both actually very thin solvent lacquer formulations meant for use on artist's drawings and pastel/charcoal pieces. John Jordon and Andi use them as final finishes on some pieces, but, being solvent based, I'd shy away from heavy use in a room with on-going combustion.

 

[Steve Worcester]

First, anything you spray, you should wear a mask of some sort with charcoal filters some sort of particlulate filter also. Anything that is sprayed, water based or solvent.
Even waterborne finishes use a solvent of some sort, but perhaps you are talking about the odor while it is drying.

A fixative sets the colors, generally doesn't impart a lot of color on the work (depends on type of fixative and wood). Also provides a light sealant. (Kind of like locking the layer in photoshop). Allows you to lay down color on top of color, not smudge, but not allowing erase either).
Anything out of a can sprays thinner than a gun, so any finish is usable for this. The issue has a lot to do with control from a rattle can. The product is thinner and you don't have any control over nozzle size or spray pressure.A high gloss finish (doesn't sound like that is what you want, but) needs to build, and needs to be applied in a manner that the product flows out, but doesn't run, and takes long enough to dry that it doesn't orange peel. Also true for satin, etc., but far more noticeable as the gloss increases. Anything that you want to put several coats on is going to flow into the crevices and recesses and it will pooch up on edges, always a big issue with carving and detail.
The acrylics in a can will work well, but can be a bit touchy depending on heat and humidity. They can bloom underneath and is tough to repair.

Personally, I haven't found a waterborne finish that I like, but also quit looking a few years ago. I found them plasticy looking, and real tough to repair (I think I was using Apollo finishes at the time). Some of that is in coming from a lacquer finish, when they wet the wood, it makes it more yellow (on a light wood, the same as wetting it) what we called a warm look. With a water based, it gave it more of a cloudyish look, but didn't largely alter the color. Useful on colored vessels as it doesn't alter the colors, but on bare wood, I just ever liked it.

Ultimately, it will take some investment and investigation , to determine what works best for you application. If rattle can is the direction, I would start with some quality archival fixatives (go to the art store and talk with them) and carve some test pieces of wood you like to work with.

As I have always said, I don't want people to do it all for me, but I really like to flatten and shorten the learning curve.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Nooks & Crannies

are a problem for all coatings, regardless of how they are applied. I've had good results with my mini-gun by taking the air down to 10-15 PSI, thinning the waterborne with 10% water, and backing off on the material feed. The gentle finish mist glides on rather than getting blasted into (and out of) the crevices. The "fat-edge" Steve speaks of is minimal, so detail is preserved. Key, as always, is light coats.

From the standpoint of repair, oil has always been the turner's friend, and evaporative finishes, lacquer and shellac, are, without doubt, the easiest on which to reconstitute an even finish film.

 

[Donna Banfield]

Good Evening Mark

I have compressor capabilities, so maybe you're right - I need to move out of the comfort zone; admittedly, I have very little experience using my air brush or Critter Gun.


Very nice finish on your mini urns, and not being buffed out is a bonus. It's nearly impossible, not to mention foolish, to attempt buffing out some of my carved turnings.


This info on Fixatives and Krylon matte finishes is good to know, both in terms of durability AND the need to take the same precautions I would when spraying lacquer. Thanks!

Edit - Mark I wold have included some of your posting in my reply, but I just figured out how to do the 'quote thing' when replying to Steve Worcester's post. See, I'm learning all kinds of cool stuff!! 🙂

 

[Donna Banfield]

First, anything you spray, you should wear a mask of some sort with charcoal filters some sort of particlulate filter also. Anything that is sprayed, water based or solvent.
Even waterborne finishes use a solvent of some sort, but perhaps you are talking about the odor while it is drying.

A fixative sets the colors, generally doesn't impart a lot of color on the work (depends on type of fixative and wood). Also provides a light sealant. (Kind of like locking the layer in photoshop). Allows you to lay down color on top of color, not smudge, but not allowing erase either).
Anything out of a can sprays thinner than a gun, so any finish is usable for this. The issue has a lot to do with control from a rattle can. The product is thinner and you don't have any control over nozzle size or spray pressure.A high gloss finish (doesn't sound like that is what you want, but) needs to build, and needs to be applied in a manner that the product flows out, but doesn't run, and takes long enough to dry that it doesn't orange peel. Also true for satin, etc., but far more noticeable as the gloss increases. Anything that you want to put several coats on is going to flow into the crevices and recesses and it will pooch up on edges, always a big issue with carving and detail.

The acrylics in a can will work well, but can be a bit touchy depending on heat and humidity. They can bloom underneath and is tough to repair.


Ultimately, it will take some investment and investigation , to determine what works best for you application. If rattle can is the direction, I would start with some quality archival fixatives (go to the art store and talk with them) and carve some test pieces of wood you like to work with.

As I have always said, I don't want people to do it all for me, but I really like to flatten and shorten the learning curve.

Hi Steve

Thanks for your reply and the very helpful info. I'm in complete agreement with you, as in I'm not looking for someone to do my work for me, because I've already been spraying finishes for a couple of years now. But I've encountered some problems (lacquer, orange peel when temps/humidity not right) that someone with a lot more experience could tell me if I'm on the right track (acrylics) or put me on the right track (lacquer, other water-borne finishes, and some new finishes by General Finishes).

Thanks again.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Good Evening Mark

I have compressor capabilities, so maybe you're right - I need to move out of the comfort zone; admittedly, I have very little experience using my air brush or Critter Gun.


Very nice finish on your mini urns, and not being buffed out is a bonus. It's nearly impossible, not to mention foolish, to attempt buffing out some of my carved turnings.


This info on Fixatives and Krylon matte finishes is good to know, both in terms of durability AND the need to take the same precautions I would when spraying lacquer. Thanks!

Edit - Mark I wold have included some of your posting in my reply, but I just figured out how to do the 'quote thing' when replying to Steve Worcester's post. See, I'm learning all kinds of cool stuff!! 🙂

Hi Donna,

Since you mentioned the 'Critter', I'll opine that you won't like the result if you try to use waterborne finishes in it. It does a great job with shellac, but waterbornes really take an HVLP gun for atomization and control.
this http://www.spraygunworld.com/products/CAT/CATMinisprayJetGlaze.html is the gun I bought for small items and turnings. You need a mini regulator to maximize air-flow control, but it does a beautiful job. I've used it for nearly 4 years, and it's my go-to gun.

 

[Steve Worcester]

Hi Donna,

Since you mentioned the 'Critter', I'll opine that you won't like the result if you try to use waterborne finishes in it. It does a great job with shellac, but waterbornes really take an HVLP gun for atomization and control.
this http://www.spraygunworld.com/products/CAT/CATMinisprayJetGlaze.html is the gun I bought for small items and turnings. You need a mini regulator to maximize air-flow control, but it does a beautiful job. I've used it for nearly 4 years, and it's my go-to gun.

Looks like Jeff has the same gun at similar prices
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/CAtech.htm
If it works well, that is a good deal. I use similar Iwata and Sata guns for what I do, at about 2x the price. Look real similar.

Mark, which coating are you using and what tip size?

 

[Mark Mandell]

Looks like Jeff has the same gun at similar prices
http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/CAtech.htm
If it works well, that is a good deal. I use similar Iwata and Sata guns for what I do, at about 2x the price. Look real similar.

Mark, which coating are you using and what tip size?

Yep, That's the gun (but not with the Glazing kit). Comes with 3 needles and tips in the kit. I use the .08 set for toning with dyed shellac. I generally use the 1.2 tip for waterbornes, but have used the 1.0 with descent results if I've diluted the material. I do, however, use an add-on regulator to get very precise air control at the gun.

As far as finishes go, I like Target's EM6000 lacquer for turnings like the mini urns. The stuff flows out like glass, builds quickly, and film's refractive index preserves the color in the wood. For flat work, I've been using General's Enduro Clear Poly and add the Enduro Crosslinker. That, however, takes the "big" (Walcom) gun. Attached is pic of walnut table just finished with the Enduro.

 

[kevinkabby]

Donna,

Have you tried "high build" by sherwin williams? Out of all of the quality pre-cats it seems the easiest to use in many different variables. With orange peel, when you spray it, does it look flat when you spray it? Maybe you need to put more on. With the "high build" i typically don't thin it, but when it does get cold i will thin it 10% if it is below 60 degrees. Typically you don't want to spray any lower than 55. When it is humid, there are many types of dryers you can add to lacquer...A friend of mine who is a professional finisher uses "japan dryer"

 

[Steve Worcester]

..As far as finishes go, I like Target's EM6000 lacquer for turnings like the mini urns. ...

I don't see anything about UV additives though. Have you done any fade testing, especially over dyes, with it?

 

[Mark Mandell]

I don't see anything about UV additives though. Have you done any fade testing, especially over dyes, with it?

I really haven't because the only dyes I use are TransTints which are metalized and about as lightfast as they come. I've used the Target on some Box Elder pieces, but haven't followed them up regarding fading of the phenol reds.

You can call Jeff Weiss at Target here in NJ. He makes the stuff and should be able to give you better info on the UV. I think they also make an exterior finish that would have more in the way of UV blockers.