Question on Epoxy

[Tom Cadwalader]

When filling voids with crushed stone,or whatever, does it matter what epoxy is used as the bonding agent?

 

[Andy Chen]

Tom, I believe most people use cyanoacrylate glue.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Yes, it does. Some epoxy is very yellow, some is cloudy, and some is clear. Go for the clear. Also, some epoxy sets in five minutes, some in one hour, and some is several hours. Get the kind that takes longer. The reason is that when you mix the epoxy, there are a lot of trapped air bubbles. There is not enough time for them to escape from the quick setting epoxy. I like the Devcon crystal clear epoxy that takes about an hour to harden. There are some other clear epoxy glues that are thinner and take several hours to harden.

I mainly use Inlace, a crystal clear plastic resin. It is much better than epoxy for doing inlays and is less expensive. It also does not have some of the problems of epoxy such as yellowing and trapped air bubbles and it sets in about 15 minutes.

 

[Odie]

Tom, I believe most people use cyanoacrylate glue.

I frequently fill voids with epoxy, but I'm not using a filler like crushed stone. Someone who does use that combination may come along and post. Am also interested in hearing their reply.....

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

Andy, I have tried CA several times and it works unless it needs to be turned, such as filling a channel. It tends to get very brittle and chip when turned. It also can fume or set up extremely fast when used to fill a large area. Besides that, I have a love/hate relationship with it. It has so many uses that I use it frequently ... and every time it seems like I glue my fingers to something. 🙄

 

[Odie]

Howdy Bill.......looks like we were typing at the same time!

I'm also using the Devcon clear epoxy.....great stuff. Cuts well with lathe tools and sands nicely. There is an occasional bubble, and easily taken care of with repeat application.

ko

 

[Charlie M]

I use either the five minute Devcon epoxy or the Inlace. Usually I add coloring to the epoxy when I use it. And if I need a less viscous epoxy, I add a few drops of paint thinner to the mix.

Charlie

 

[Owen Lowe]

Andy, I have tried CA several times and it works unless it needs to be turned, such as filling a channel. It tends to get very brittle and chip when turned. It also can fume or set up extremely fast when used to fill a large area. Besides that, I have a love/hate relationship with it. It has so many uses that I use it frequently ... and every time it seems like I glue my fingers to something. 🙄

The only uses I put CA to work are temporary work holding; I won’t include it in a finished turning. Like you said, it’s brittle. I believe it will eventually fail when used in such a dynamic material as wood. The event that convinced me of this was when I noticed that the bottom of an acorn ornament hanging from my truck’s rearview mirror was on the floor mat while the cap was still hanging on the ribbon. Took a couple of years for this to happen, but i want every piece to last longer than a couple years before failure.

Epoxy remains flexible and accommodates wood movement. What type of material is the resin you mentioned?

 

[john lucas]

I like to use either Casting Resins, System 3 mirror coat epoxy or clear Inlace. I also use west system epoxy with the slow hardener. I often mix colors with the epoxy so I don't necessarily need clear but the Casting resins, clear inlace and system 3 mirror coat are crystal clear.

 

[Gary Chapman]

Yes, it does. Some epoxy is very yellow, some is cloudy, and some is clear. Go for the clear. Also, some epoxy sets in five minutes, some in one hour, and some is several hours. Get the kind that takes longer. The reason is that when you mix the epoxy, there are a lot of trapped air bubbles. There is not enough time for them to escape from the quick setting epoxy. I like the Devcon crystal clear epoxy that takes about an hour to harden. There are some other clear epoxy glues that are thinner and take several hours to harden.

I mainly use Inlace, a crystal clear plastic resin. It is much better than epoxy for doing inlays and is less expensive. It also does not have some of the problems of epoxy such as yellowing and trapped air bubbles and it sets in about 15 minutes.

Bill
I use inlace a lot but i find that it takes four or five hours for it to harden and overnight before I can sand it. Am I doing something wrong? Gary

 

[John Torchick]

I use a lot of epoxy for fishing rods. Pour it out on a piece of aluminum foil, let it "flatten" out and gently blow through a soda straw to remove the bubbles. Just be careful that you don't get condensation in the straw and then it drips on the epoxy. Don't ask how I know. 😱

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill
I use inlace a lot but i find that it takes four or five hours for it to harden and overnight before I can sand it. Am I doing something wrong? Gary

When I said that Inlace "sets" in fifteen minutes, I meant that you have about fifteen minutes working time. Then it rapidly becomes unworkable as it turns into a rubbery stiff blob. It has a "cure" time of about 12 hours before it can be turned. I have found that it is best to not wait too long. After about a week it is really hard and dulls tools quickly.

I use a lot of epoxy for fishing rods. Pour it out on a piece of aluminum foil, let it "flatten" out and gently blow through a soda straw to remove the bubbles. Just be careful that you don't get condensation in the straw and then it drips on the epoxy. Don't ask how I know. 😱

I have wondered if that would work, but I've never tried it. Thanks.

 

[Tom Cadwalader]

Thanks everyone for the input. After reading the post another question comes to mind.
What about finishes going over epoxy or inlace. Any concerns or issues there? I am a fan of walnut oil, walnut oil with wax, danish oil, and lacquer for finish. I also buff with the using the Beal system sometimes.

 

[john lucas]

I've never had a problem with finishes going on over epoxy or Inlace. I have only had one failure that I know of and I'm not sure it was epoxy as the problem. I had filled a glued together piece of Banksia pod with black epoxy and put multiple coats of lacquer of it. It failed spectacularly about 2 years after I built it. The finish just peeled off. I have done lots of filling of voids and such with the same epoxy and have used lacquer on my bowls and mirrors for years with no problems so I don't have any idea why that particular one failed.

 

[Odie]

Thanks everyone for the input. After reading the post another question comes to mind.
What about finishes going over epoxy or inlace. Any concerns or issues there? I am a fan of walnut oil, walnut oil with wax, danish oil, and lacquer for finish. I also buff with the using the Beal system sometimes.

Tom......

Since you mentioned Danish oil and Beal buffing, and these are my most used finishing components.......just thought I'd mention that I've never had adverse effects using them with bowl cracks/voids that have been filled with epoxy.

I'm using Devcon clear epoxy, and it isn't quite clear.....more a dark cream color that seems to blend well with most woods.

About the bubbles.......don't get very many, but if they are internal, they don't show up. Those that are exposed by tool use, or sanding, are quickly taken care of by a re-application of a tiny bit of epoxy to fill the bubble. It's an easy fix.

ko

 

[John Torchick]

Re: bubbles- gently fold the two parts together. Vigorous stirring will create bubbles.
Edit: Here is something that is great for mixing. you can buy it or make one out of the turntable motor from an old microwave oven. Rod builders fight over old microwave ovens just to get the motor.
http://www.mudhole.com/Rod-Building/Other/Automatic-Epoxy-Finish-Mixer

 

[Bill Boehme]

... I'm using Devcon clear epoxy, and it isn't quite clear.....more a dark cream color that seems to blend well with most woods...

I've found that there is some variation in the clear epoxy so I check it at the store to make sure that it is really clear. It apparently has a shelf life for remaining clear. I had some that was over a year old and one of the two parts (don't recall which one) turned translucent white. It was still usable for other purposes, but not for inlay work if you need clear.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Taking Out The Air

It's easy to get the air bubbles out of mixed epoxy. All you need is a shop vac, a clean 5 gal bucket, and a piece of clear plexi for a lid.

Cut a hole in the side of the bucket that's a tight fit for the vac hose.

Put your freshly mixed goop in the bucket.

Put the "lid" on.

Start the vac and bring to the hole for a few seconds.

You'll see the epoxy "boil" as the mixed-in air is removed.

Pull the vac hose away and allow the resin to settle back in the mixing bowl.

repeat the application of the vac until the epoxy remains stable.

Carefully pour your epoxy into the hole/mold/etm.

Result will be a crystal clear casting with no air bubbles.

PS 1. Make sure your mixing bowl has space for the resin to bubble up without spilling over
2. A vacuum pump does just as well as the shop-vac.

 

[John Tisdale]

The little vacuum chamber to remove bubbles was worth the price of admission - thanks.

I've used WEST, System-3 and Aero-Marine - I've had conversations with their tech support and all say the following: epoxy will yellow over time - no exceptions. When filling little worm-holes, cracks or impregnating bark inclusions I always dye - typically with a combination of brown and black to create a rich dark brown. The only time I will use clear is on the inside of a vessel - I'm not too worried about the yellowing from UV on the inside.

Dave Schweitzer of D-Way Tools got me started on Aero-Marine 300 - I will always be grateful. It is a much lower viscosity and very clear. When using as a filler, I mix with colloidal silica along with the dye. If a thin crack or you're impregnating a bark inclusion, start with unthickened and work up. Also, a jewelers scale makes mixing more accurate, especially when mixing small quantities.

I know there are lots of talented turners using CA but I try to avoid the stuff.

One more comment on epoxy: show the stuff due respect. And never use a solvent to remove from your skin - any solvent, especially acetone, jams the stuff into your bloodstream. Best cleaner is Fast Orange which can be bought at any automotive or hardware store.

Be careful and remember: it's not paranoia when you know they're (it's) out to get you.
John

 

[Bill Boehme]

The little vacuum chamber to remove bubbles was worth the price of admission - thanks.

I agree. This may be the most useful tip that I have read all year -- never mind that it is January 4.

... One more comment on epoxy: show the stuff due respect. And never use a solvent to remove from your skin - any solvent, especially acetone, jams the stuff into your bloodstream. Best cleaner is Fast Orange which can be bought at any automotive or hardware store.

Another very useful tidbit, but a little late for today as I was using the wrong way to clean my hands. I wonder how much epoxy I have coating my arteries like plaque.

 

[Mark Mandell]

One more comment on epoxy: show the stuff due respect. And never use a solvent to remove from your skin - any solvent, especially acetone, jams the stuff into your bloodstream. Best cleaner is Fast Orange which can be bought at any automotive or hardware store.

Good point. I actually prefer a pair of cheap latex gloves.😉 Catch'em on sale on the net and they translate to about $0.03 a piece. Same goes for any solvent-bearing finish.

Example at even less: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/suf...ogleShopping&gclid=CL7Ji8vC_cICFcXm7AodgH8A9g

 

[Mark Mandell]

Example of resin clarity

Attached are before and after views of a section of a slab coffee table I did for SWMBO. The depression was about 1-1/2" deep. The Sys-3 was mixed using a "medium" hardener, vacuumed as described, and pored with the outside surface being a dam sealed with wax. The section was filled slightly above the wood surface and then taken down flush with a framed belt sander.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Attached are before and after views of a section of a slab coffee table I did for SWMBO. The depression was about 1-1/2" deep. The Sys-3 was mixed using a "medium" hardener, vacuumed as described, and pored with the outside surface being a dam sealed with wax. The section was filled slightly above the wood surface and then taken down flush with a framed belt sander.

That gives me an idea on repairing some spots that I have on a cross section slab of mesquite. I suspect that it has to be from a group of several mesquites that grew together. The average diameter of the piece was about 40 inches -- at least it was before the band mill owner decided that it ought to be cut in half. So, I have 180° of a circle and another member of my club has the other half. I've had it in the garage for six or seven years waiting for the right inspiration.

I have been using disposable nitrile gloves from Harbor Freight. They have them in extra large which is a perfect fit for me and nitrile is more resistant to chemicals than latex.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Nitrile

I have been using disposable nitrile gloves from Harbor Freight. They have them in extra large which is a perfect fit for me and nitrile is more resistant to chemicals than latex.

I use them as well when handling solvents. The cheapo foodservice gloves are, however, just fine to keep epoxy or plain shellac off your skin, but lacquer and Stoddard-based stuff require nitrile.

 

[Mark Mandell]

That gives me an idea on repairing some spots that I have on a cross section slab of mesquite. /QUOTE]

Second Tip: You should "pre-wet" the surface with a small mix of resin that's thinned with 10% dna. Gently work the thinned stuff into the nooks and crannies with a small brush on the surface to prevent entrapping small air bubbles. You may find that there will be porous spots and tiny cracks that will soak up more. Keep adding to those spots until they stop bubbling, then pour in your main mix. With the added weight of the main batch, you might even get a bubble or two from those porous spots but with the medium hardener you'll have open time to bring them to the surface with a toothpick or bit of fine wire.

Caveat: Be very stingy with the dna. Epoxy is a thermo-setting resin and gets hotter as sections get thicker. You thus run the risk that the reaction heat will literally boil the alcohol off and you'll be left with a real mess and stuff that looks like foam. If you really need a deep-penetrating thin resin, there are such available. The bar-top coatings (MirrorCoat etm.) are thinner than standard resins. When mixing small quantities, it's best to use a gram scale and mix to exact weight proportions to get maximum strength in the resulting cured product. Lastly, don't pour more than 1-1/2" thick as the reaction heat will deform the gel and may even crack the plastic during the set. For such deep holes, do your pours in layers allowing one pour to set and cool before adding the next. You can control the reaction heat if you're in cold weather, but "cooling the pour" will also extend the reaction time. Check with your manufacturer regarding minimum curing temperatures.

 

[Raul McCai]

I have had some really bad results with hardware store epoxy. It turned yellow and let go.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I learned about exothermic reactions when working with polyester resin many years ago. The stuff got hot enough to almost catch on fire and it turned the resin brown.

 

[Steve Worcester]

Tom, I believe most people use cyanoacrylate glue.

Please don't use CA, it won't last. It eventually cracks and doesn't move at the same rate as the wood. Just not as flexible or archival as epoxy would be.

 

[John Tisdale]

Good word: archival. You used it as more than an adjective - you use it as a value statement.

I think it is indicative of the guys on this forum - we want our works to live. Perhaps the problem to be solved is not which finish or which filler - it is which finish or which filler will allow the piece to be an item of joy long after we've "hung it up". Why shouldn't our work last 100-years plus - maybe plus plus. Any short-cut or cost savings that denies that immortality is worse than "penny wise".

Guard-Banding is another good term - use only those filler and finishes that have the greatest probability of surviving the extremes on both ends. Who knows - the person that has your work may move to south Florida or Needles, CA and your name is on the bottom.

The above is a long way of saying I agree with Steve: avoid CA where epoxy will work.
John

 

[Odie]

You know......I remember a time, not so long ago, when it was the general thinking of the woodturning community (herd), that CA was the best thing to come down the pike! This just goes to show how slowly the "group think" moves to conclude what a few other turners found more quickly by applying a little individual evaluation.

There are some things the herd clings to, because the heroes and stars they admire do things that way. Not that it can't be done that way, but that it tends to ignore alternatives that also work.......and, sometimes could/would work better for some applications and individual styles.

Sometimes self-reliance yields results that learned methods from "the book of generally accepted practices" cannot.....

.....just a thought! 😱

ko

 

[Mark Mandell]

You know......I remember a time, not so long ago, when it was the general thinking of the woodturning community (herd), that CA was the best thing to come down the pike! This just goes to show how slowly the "group think" moves to conclude what a few other turners found more quickly by applying a little individual evaluation.

There are some things the herd clings to, because the heroes and stars they admire do things that way. Not that it can't be done that way, but that it tends to ignore alternatives that also work.......and, sometimes could/would work better for some applications and individual styles.

Sometimes self-reliance yields results that learned methods from "the book of generally accepted practices" cannot.....

.....just a thought! 😱

ko

A little harsh, I think, Odie.

We live in a time of continuing change and advancement of most all technologies. As "makers" (whether of "art" or "craft") we have the opportunity, if not the obligation, to try new materials and techniques to produce what we make and expand the possibilities of what we can do. We explore. We experiment. Some things are validated and kept, some are discarded along the way, all as a function of the test of time. CA, for instance, was and still is a boon to people who want to "get it done now" and are not concerned about making stuff for their great-great grandchildrens' grandchildren to cherish or visit in a museum.

In every endeavor there are those few who push forward and explore; generally we call them leaders. Then there are the vast majority of others who learn from and incorporate what leaders may discover and share. That doesn't make them part of a "herd" with the term's pejorative implication of mindless following, nor does it make them hero-worshipers with that term's somewhat sarcastic connotations.

What we make is neither our offspring nor our immortality. That's what DNA is for.

 

[Odie]

A little harsh, I think, Odie.

We live in a time of continuing change and advancement of most all technologies. As "makers" (whether of "art" or "craft") we have the opportunity, if not the obligation, to try new materials and techniques to produce what we make and expand the possibilities of what we can do. We explore. We experiment. Some things are validated and kept, some are discarded along the way, all as a function of the test of time. CA, for instance, was and still is a boon to people who want to "get it done now" and are not concerned about making stuff for their great-great grandchildrens' grandchildren to cherish or visit in a museum.

In every endeavor there are those few who push forward and explore; generally we call them leaders. Then there are the vast majority of others who learn from and incorporate what leaders may discover and share. That doesn't make them part of a "herd" with the term's pejorative implication of mindless following, nor does it make them hero-worshipers with that term's somewhat sarcastic connotations.

What we make is neither our offspring nor our immortality. That's what DNA is for.

Perceive it as you will, Mark.......😀

You are welcome to disagree, agree, or be non-committal..... I said what I believe, nothing more.

ko

 

[John Torchick]

I switched to nitrile gloves. I found that the cheapo latex gloves would literally dissolve with some chemicals, especially gun cleaning solvents. Harbor Freight had nitrile gloves on sale before Christmas. Bought two boxes.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Perceive it as you will, Mark.......😀

You are welcome to disagree, agree, or be non-committal..... I said what I believe, nothing more.

ko

That's fine, Odie. My point I suppose is can't you find a way to express your beliefs without insulting others, characterizing them as part of a "herd" or openly sarcastic terms like "hero" or "star"?

I haven't seen anyone refer to your chosen methods in pejorative or personally insulting manners. Show some tolerance and don't disconnect your bathroom fan, OK?

 

[Steve Worcester]

That's fine, Odie. My point I suppose is can't you find a way to express your beliefs without insulting others, characterizing them as part of a "herd" or openly sarcastic terms like "hero" or "star"?

I haven't seen anyone refer to your chosen methods in pejorative or personally insulting manners. Show some tolerance and don't disconnect your bathroom fan, OK?

i got his point without reading too much negative into it.

But I got the archival reference from a star.

i had Curt Theobald at my house for a week while I coached him on glass. We talked about glues (very different than wood) and he went off and questioned manufacturers about the archival qualities.

 

[hockenbery]

I never use CA for anything that I want to stay together.

It brittleness and low tolerance for heat are features that makes it a great choice for:

gluing a tool in a handle a sharp rap will fracture the joint

when used to join a glue block to a blank the glue fractures with a chisel leaving the glue block and bonding surface from the blank in tact
Just clean off the glue and the glue block can do lots of bowls.

Great for gluing hollowing tips in place a little heat breaks the bond when it is time to put in a new tip.


Al

 

[Odie]

That's fine, Odie. My point I suppose is can't you find a way to express your beliefs without insulting others, characterizing them as part of a "herd" or openly sarcastic terms like "hero" or "star"?

I haven't seen anyone refer to your chosen methods in pejorative or personally insulting manners. Show some tolerance and don't disconnect your bathroom fan, OK?

Mark.....

My beliefs are not meant to be insulting. That I put them into words is only meant to express what I believe to be what is. To emphasize the perimeters, let me point out that I don't believe everyone is a member of the "herd", but a good percentage, and even a majority of those in the woodturning community are......even some who don't think they are. As I said, it's up to you to take what I say any way you want to take it, but remember that if you are insulted, it is a choice.

Thanks, Steve.....

ko

 

[Gretch Flo]

I make alot of craftsy things with the cutoffs that I don't want to burn. Handles and buttons with metal inserts. I have had some of my ice cream scoops (and a few other things-not enuf glue??) have the bolster become loose. Am migrating to the more labor intensive epoxy per the comments made on this forum the last few years about CA. Altho I don't necessarily need the things to last 100+ years, I do want them to servive many years.
I see on the craftsupply usa flyer I just got there is a new CA (medium) they have that is flexible-, 4x stronger adhesive than regular CA. (#105-390) . Anyone have any experience with it??? Gretch

 

[Owen Lowe]

Just to mention, when attaching wood to wood, I usually rely on the Titebond glues formulated for wood. Wood to wood glue has great holding power and longevity, plus it’s easier to clean up and won’t trigger any allergic reactions (as epoxies can). Epoxy is what I reach for when gluing mixed media like wood and metal, shells, stone, bone, etc. or when filling a crack or hole.

 

[john lucas]

I'm with the others. I quit using CA for permanent bonds years ago. I do however still use it for filling small cracks or voids. It is noted that one of the major museums is really down on work that has CA glue. Apparently they have seen problems with it. Early on in my mirror making career I used CA to glue the handles in. Had lots of failures. It's far to brittle for cross grain joints. I also had some CA failures in rings glued to the lip of vessels. I now use epoxy exclusively for that. I've been to demos where the big name turner also felt CA was not good for long term use.
What I think happened is we all jumped on the bandwagon of CA use many years ago when it was new. I remember Rude Osolnik glued blanks onto a bowl using lots and lots of it. He laughed and said he owned stock in the company and highly recommended it. (I still use it for that purpose). Now that the glue has been around for 30 years or so we are starting to learn what it isn't good at which I think is why it's getting negative criticism now. Kind of like my thoughts on Gorilla glue. I love it at first but then found out I could do anything it does with other glues equally as well with far less clean up hassles and it has some spectacular failures due to it's inability to fill a gap with anything but foam.
In short you should read all you can about certain glues and use them for the best reasons to use that particular glue. As mentioned above for most wood to wood joints needing to be permanent it's hard to beat a good yellow woodworkers glue however even in furniture long grain to long grain joints there will eventually be a failure at the joint line if the there is enough moisture and wood movement over the years.