Question about Arkansas slip stones......

[Odie]

Can anyone give a practical evaluation of the dark vs the hard white Arkansas slipstones in the link? The dark stone is quite a bit more expensive......why?.....and, is it worth the extra expense?

I assume the soft white Arkansas stone will wear into a bow shape fairly easily........This is the problem I've had with a couple silicon carbide stones. I'm not very satisfied with those. I have some old Henry Taylor dark slipstones that work well, and some India stones that are good, but not as good as the Henry Taylor........

I'm interested in getting one of these stones, for the tapered shapes they are offered in.

thanks

http://www.woodcraft.com/category/2000234/arkansas-multiform-slipstones.aspx

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Black vs White

The black is supposed to be finer than the white. I have used a translucent Hard Arkansas bench stone for my carving tools for 40 years. I also use a similar slip for putting a micro back-bevel on tools and deburring my turning tools.

The "regular" white hard Arkansas is just fine. I also have several Japanese waterstone slips in 1000 and 4000 grits. I still prefer the Arkansas.

 

[Odie]

The black is supposed to be finer than the white. I have used a translucent Hard Arkansas bench stone for my carving tools for 40 years. I also use a similar slip for putting a micro back-bevel on tools and deburring my turning tools.

The "regular" white hard Arkansas is just fine. I also have several Japanese waterstone slips in 1000 and 4000 grits. I still prefer the Arkansas.

Thanks, Mark......

If the dark stone is any finer, I think that's what I want. You see, I've been using a cone shaped 600gt diamond hone quite a bit, and it's been doing a very good job. There are exceptions to it's value to me, though.......specifically, when a bowl gouge is worn down and the flute is short. In that case, it gets problematic because it's difficult to get the long slender cone shape close to parallel on the sharpened edge, properly removing the burr to the best advantage.

I'm thinking these tapered "multiform" contours might help me remove the burr at a better parallel presentation for this specific need.

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Save your money. More expensive doesn't mean better.

The finer the stone, the slower it cuts so you'll be spending a lot of time putting surgical edges on your tools that will be fragile and ruined after several cuts. Carvers, especially chip carvers, will use the black to put a scalpel/polished micro-bevel edge on their tools. Totally useless for a fluted turning tool. If you want to just debur your gouge's top edge, an india slip will do just fine.

http://www.artcotools.com/india-round-edge-slip-stones.html

Cheaper yet: Take a piece of w/d SiC 400 or 600 grit paper and glue it to a piece of 1/2" dowel. Use that as a wet hone for your flute to remove the wire edge your grinder pushes up.:cool2:

 

[MichaelMouse]

A slipstone won't make an edge any smoother than what's on the bevel side. So, unless you're going to hone/strop away those steel canyons made by your 80 grit, wrap that piece of sticky sandpaper around the appropriate dowel size for your stubby flutes and use the diamond for others.

Love the black Arkansas for plane and knife blades.

 

[Ian Thorn]

If you use a CBN wheel then you dont get canyons on the bevel then i use a fine stone to remove any rubish in the flute.

Ian

 

[Odie]

A slipstone won't make an edge any smoother than what's on the bevel side. So, unless you're going to hone/strop away those steel canyons made by your 80 grit, wrap that piece of sticky sandpaper around the appropriate dowel size for your stubby flutes and use the diamond for others.

Love the black Arkansas for plane and knife blades.

MM.......You are absolutely correct, but it's apparent that you have a misconception of what I'm using a slipstone for.

I don't use a slipstone for the bevel side of gouges at all. It's only used for removing the burr left on the flute side of the grind.

This discussion of wheel type, CBN, and etc., is inconsequential to my requirements, because the grinding method has as it's singular purpose, nothing more than removing and shaping metal from the bevel side of gouges. This is why I intend to stick with the Norton 80gt SG wheels......for the purpose I use them for, it's my opinion the SG wheels are the best there is available to turners. For honing the finest and sharpest edge I can get, I'm using a 600gt diamond plate on the bevel side, as well as the flute side of the gouge. As I explained previously, there are times when the cone shaped diamond hone isn't as applicable to the specific grind I have, and it's those times when I do use a slipstone.......but, only as a method of removing the burr, nothing more.

The slipstones I have work reasonably well, but traditional shapes aren't as useful as I'd like......and, this is why I've ordered the more expensive dark Arkansas "multi-form" slipstone to add to my stable of honing implements. It has not arrived, so I haven't had the opportunity to use it yet.

My apologies to Mark Mandell for ignoring his advice on the cheaper and coarser grit slipstone, but having appreciated the value the 600gt diamond cone to the sharp edge I've been able to achieve, it just makes sense to me to go for the finer grit slipstone. I thought about getting the set of three grades of multi-form slipstones, so I could do my own testing.......but I do have some budget considerations. In any event, the finer grit slipstone will not have worse results than the coarser grit slipstone.

It's true that M2 steel will dull quickly, and I'm willing to accept that fact. For quite some time, I've grown accustomed to sharpening and honing often.......and, from my point of view, the time element isn't as important as getting the most perfect surface quality (prior to sanding) as I can get. Those results are what I want to maintain.......and, my convenience isn't the priority concern.

Thanks to all who responded to this thread........😀

ooc

Edit note: As for the "canyons" left by coarser grinding wheels, please refer to my thread in the "tips and tricks" forum regarding making the tools "slide and glide". If there are any inconsistencies in the grind, they are quickly smoothed out with the 3M de-burr wheel.

Click on this to view:
http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=9932




.

 

[Mark Mandell]

No apologies required, Odie.

It's your money; spend it however it gives you the most satisfaction.😀

 

[MichaelMouse]

OD, I know exactly what a slip is used for, being both a turner and a carver. You might want to hone your reading skills along with your gouges. To state it another way you might understand, the edge can be no better than its worst side. When you remove the wire or burr in the flute, the irregularities in the edge are still defined by the grind in the bevel. An 80 grit stone is 80 scratches per inch, with perhaps half that size in depth on the flute. Your 600, by the same method is scored but slightly. Compared to irregularities left by the slip in the flute, the grind artifacts are indeed "canyons" even if the word were not chosen as a joke.

You really need to take care of that chip.

 

[Odie]

OD, I know exactly what a slip is used for, being both a turner and a carver. You might want to hone your reading skills along with your gouges. To state it another way you might understand, the edge can be no better than its worst side. When you remove the wire or burr in the flute, the irregularities in the edge are still defined by the grind in the bevel. An 80 grit stone is 80 scratches per inch, with perhaps half that size in depth on the flute. Your 600, by the same method is scored but slightly. Compared to irregularities left by the slip in the flute, the grind artifacts are indeed "canyons" even if the word were not chosen as a joke.

You really need to take care of that chip.

Pretty disappointing, MM.......

Here's a link for you:
http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=4373

ooc

 

[Mark Mandell]

Now Boys . . .

Odie,

Michael missed the part where you stated that you hone your bevels to 600 after you shape them on the 80 grit wheel but before you "lap" the flutes. Having missed that bit of data, his comment is accurate rather than "uncivil" as you imply. If you were leaving your bevels with the 80 grit surface, it would, in fact, be a waste of time to hone the flutes to 600.

Shall we just step back a bit?

 

[Odie]

Odie,

Michael missed the part where you stated that you hone your bevels to 600 after you shape them on the 80 grit wheel but before you "lap" the flutes. Having missed that bit of data, his comment is accurate rather than "uncivil" as you imply. If you were leaving your bevels with the 80 grit surface, it would, in fact, be a waste of time to hone the flutes to 600.

Shall we just step back a bit?

Mark.......

Did you read this:

You really need to take care of that chip.

That comment is not appropriate.......

I appreciate your trying to help, but you've missed the accumulation of years of inappropriate comments by MM that serve no constructive, or positive purpose. To the contrary, they tend to limit input to this forum.

I've personally had great benefit from the input of others on this forum, and I'd like to see it grow to include many more opinions and commentary. All of us are on our own personal quest for excellence, and there are many paths that will lead us to that objective.

There are probably ten opinions that I absorb before one opinion influences me in my turning efforts. This isn't a comment about what doesn't influence me, but I'd like to continue to get that one in ten that does......and, I am a better turner for the total input.

To speculate, I'd say there are some here who don't understand that their own applied techniques may not always be universal. I understand this, and try not to take a right vs wrong approach to dealing with opposing opinions.......a few do, and they often do it without an understanding that what works for one turner, may not work for others. There are some turners who don't understand this point, and tend to take things personal when dealing with opposing opinions.



ooc

 

[CTutor]

slip info

check out Rio Grande jewelry catalog. They give a short but good explanation of the various stones

www.riogrande.com/

 

[hockenbery]

check out Rio Grande jewelry catalog. They give a short but good explanation of the various stones

www.riogrande.com/

It would be nice if RioGrande had a both in phoenix.
So many turners shop there for carving tools and bits.

Al

 

[hockenbery]

To speculate, I'd say there are some here who don't understand that their own applied techniques may not always be universal. I understand this, and try not to take a right vs wrong approach to dealing with opposing opinions.......a few do, and they often do it without an understanding that what works for one turner, may not work for others. There are some turners who don't understand this point, and tend to take things personal when dealing with opposing opinions.

ooc

Odie,
I'm a believer in - "if it works for you and you are happy fine."

I'll go one step further and say some techniques should not be suggested outside of very restricted audiences.
For example, I believe it is negligent to suggest that it is okay for a novice to use a spindle roughing gouge on face grain bowls.
Sure it can be done. However the downside - that serious catch with that tool often results in severe damage to the turner and equipment- is just too likely to happen.

In most cases there are dozens of safe methods to get superior results. These need to be shared.

Al

 

[MichaelMouse]

Odie,

For example, I believe it is negligent to suggest that it is okay for a novice to use a spindle roughing gouge on face grain bowls.
Sure it can be done. However the downside - that serious catch with that tool often results in severe damage to the turner and equipment- is just too likely to happen.

The purpose of instruction is to demonstrate a safe and effective way to use the tool. I think it's irresponsible to suggest cuts which put people in the line of fire of departing pieces, which is but one reason for using the arm's length push with gouges other than what you favor. Pull cuts with rough stock are not as safe, especially for people who use a spur center for starting. Guess that means we can disagree on stated positions.

But, to get to the real point of the post. Just ordered a replacement for my 30 year veteran Hard Arkansas, which developed a crack across the stone. Don't store in a damp garage, I guess, even if you use oil exclusively. I was able to get a 10x3, which, as knuckle-draggers will recognize, can accommodate the full width of a Fore plane iron, and have some room for travel for those using various fixtures - I use the Veritas - to hone. Place is Best Sharpening Stones, and the price was about double what I paid for the 8x2 around thirty years ago. They also have the hard black in the same size for the straight razor set, though I think that would be overkill on a plane iron.

 

[hockenbery]

The purpose of instruction is to demonstrate a safe and effective way to use the tool. I think it's irresponsible to suggest cuts which put people in the line of fire of departing pieces, which is but one reason for using the arm's length push with gouges other than what you favor. Pull cuts with rough stock are not as safe, especially for people who use a spur center for starting. Guess that means we can disagree on stated positions.
.

It is always good process to be out of the line of fire, whether turning or teaching.
For novices I always teach the push roughing cut with the right hand forward.
For the more experienced a pull cut left hand forward standing by the headstock, out of the line of fire is quick effective safe way to rough a bowl.
In both of these cuts chips do not hit the turner and both provide sight lines of,the developing curve.

The hands in these cuts do pass through the line of fire. They get a lot of protection from the tool rest

Not sure what you disagree with.....

 

[Mark Mandell]

Pull cuts with rough stock are not as safe, especially for people who use a spur center for starting.

So THAT's why David Ellsworth teaches his beginners' classes to start their bowls between centers and to use the pull cut for roughing the outside of a bowl! And here I thought it was to allow the turner to adjust and re-balance the wood grain and annular rings to the chosen shape plus take advantage of the geometry of the modern bowl gouge.

I must remember to ask David about that.

 

[MichaelMouse]

So THAT's why David Ellsworth teaches his beginners' classes to start their bowls between centers and to use the pull cut for roughing the outside of a bowl! And here I thought it was to allow the turner to adjust and re-balance the wood grain and annular rings to the chosen shape plus take advantage of the geometry of the modern bowl gouge.

I must remember to ask David about that.

Oh the aura, the aura....

Apologies to Joseph Conrad.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Oh the aura, the aura....

Apologies to Joseph Conrad.

Mr. Whoever-you-are,

You would do well to acquire half the knowledge of wood and turning that David has forgotten over the years. Your prejudices and preferences both date and limit you, but you are welcome to keep them, hopefully to yourself, as the rest of us explore and advance.

[BTW -Apologizing to someone who's been dead for more than 80 years is a waste of time]

 

[MichaelMouse]

Well, let's strip the information from the aura and look at it.

Between centers as in driving with a spur center? Compared to other common methods using faceplates, screw centers, scroll or pin chucks, an unnecessary danger for dismounts. The beginner is likely to make mistakes, no need to punish his face. Keep things sturdy.

Pull cut for roughing outside. Half blind cut. When the work's done behind the wide part of the bowl from the turner, progress is hidden by geometry, shavings, and the tool itself. Why cut blind when you can have the whole surface in front of you? The uncut area will show gaps and lumps as ghosts and voids, prompting you to swing the gouge against your fulcrum to exit the piece. Rather than trying to pull into the rough territory, you will remove just the high spots on the way out, then the broader on the next, until things allow a nice smooth bevel-supported slice. Safety consideration as well to keep the toolrest between the turner and the potential chunk-maker.

"Take advantage" of the geometry of the modern bowl gouge? Lest we forget, the grinds which we now use came about because the turners had to find some way to make this new contour do what the old had done for years. They are workarounds, and the variations which still abound show that the problem has not been conquered. You want to take advantage of a gouge contour, try this look from the wood's point of view.

On the right, a pull cut position. Vertical support of the tool is almost entirely on the arm of the turner. Depth of cut adjustment involves rotation and vertical adjustment as well if the tool is to work properly, because the rest's in the way of a simple push. On the left, tradition in the form of a broad sweep gouge. Vertical support is the toolrest itself, the arm is at rest. Depth of cut easily adjusted by pitch and push, because the bevel is at a constant angle. You can even skew it to get an easy slick surface.

A LOT of teachers have forgotten a lot. Problem is, they've often forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. Defend the turner by keeping out of the throw zone, barrier between work and turner, full view of upcoming defects in the path of the tool, and a firmly mounted piece under revision by a firmly supported tool.

No excuse for imbalance caused by out-of round conditions on a piece which will be round, whether by lazy blank preparation or misinterpretation of the grain pattern and then relocation of the centers, creating two new heavy lobes. Preach it, teach it. It's safety. After you've got enough shavings in your shoes, go ahead and move off center. Only do it with one of the safe mounts, and with the work in full view.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Well, let's strip the information from the aura and look at it.

Between centers as in driving with a spur center? Compared to other common methods using faceplates, screw centers, scroll or pin chucks, an unnecessary danger for dismounts. The beginner is likely to make mistakes, no need to punish his face. Keep things sturdy.

Pull cut for roughing outside. Half blind cut. When the work's done behind the wide part of the bowl from the turner, progress is hidden by geometry, shavings, and the tool itself. Why cut blind when you can have the whole surface in front of you? The uncut area will show gaps and lumps as ghosts and voids, prompting you to swing the gouge against your fulcrum to exit the piece. Rather than trying to pull into the rough territory, you will remove just the high spots on the way out, then the broader on the next, until things allow a nice smooth bevel-supported slice. Safety consideration as well to keep the toolrest between the turner and the potential chunk-maker.

"Take advantage" of the geometry of the modern bowl gouge? Lest we forget, the grinds which we now use came about because the turners had to find some way to make this new contour do what the old had done for years. They are workarounds, and the variations which still abound show that the problem has not been conquered. You want to take advantage of a gouge contour, try this look from the wood's point of view.

On the right, a pull cut position. Vertical support of the tool is almost entirely on the arm of the turner. Depth of cut adjustment involves rotation and vertical adjustment as well if the tool is to work properly, because the rest's in the way of a simple push. On the left, tradition in the form of a broad sweep gouge. Vertical support is the toolrest itself, the arm is at rest. Depth of cut easily adjusted by pitch and push, because the bevel is at a constant angle. You can even skew it to get an easy slick surface.

A LOT of teachers have forgotten a lot. Problem is, they've often forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. Defend the turner by keeping out of the throw zone, barrier between work and turner, full view of upcoming defects in the path of the tool, and a firmly mounted piece under revision by a firmly supported tool.

No excuse for imbalance caused by out-of round conditions on a piece which will be round, whether by lazy blank preparation or misinterpretation of the grain pattern and then relocation of the centers, creating two new heavy lobes. Preach it, teach it. It's safety. After you've got enough shavings in your shoes, go ahead and move off center. Only do it with one of the safe mounts, and with the work in full view.

Your photo shows just how completely wrong you are. You criticize out of ignorance. I suggest you borrow a copy of Ellsworth's video where he goes through a number of cuts using the self-same tool which you eschew in favor of that "continental" gouge. Better yet, enroll for a weekend at David's place in Eastern PA.

On second thought, don't bother with David's class as, gentleman through he may be, he won't tolerate the hindbound parochial attitude you display so clearly on this Board.

 

[hockenbery]

Pull cut for roughing outside. Half blind cut. When the work's done behind the wide part of the bowl from the turner, progress is hidden by geometry, shavings, and the tool itself. Why cut blind when you can have the whole surface in front of you? The uncut area will show gaps and lumps as ghosts and voids, prompting you to swing the gouge against your fulcrum to exit the piece. Rather than trying to pull into the rough territory, you will remove just the high spots on the way out, then the broader on the next, until things allow a nice smooth bevel-supported slice. Safety consideration as well to keep the toolrest between the turner and the potential chunk-maker.

"Take advantage" of the geometry of the modern bowl gouge? Lest we forget, the grinds which we now use came about because the turners had to find some way to make this new contour do what the old had done for years. They are workarounds, and the variations which still abound show that the problem has not been conquered. You want to take advantage of a gouge contour, try this look from the wood's point of view.

On the right, a pull cut position. Vertical support of the tool is almost entirely on the arm of the turner. Depth of cut adjustment involves rotation and vertical adjustment as well if the tool is to work properly, because the rest's in the way of a simple push. On the left, tradition in the form of a broad sweep gouge. Vertical support is the toolrest itself, the arm is at rest. Depth of cut easily adjusted by pitch and push, because the bevel is at a constant angle.
.

From your comments, I would be surprised if you ever made a successful pull with a side ground gouge.

Obviously the pull cut is not for everyone.

The way I use the tool:
1. The pull cut is not for beginners. The pull cut is not for folks who like to watch their tool tip.
2. When properly done all the forces go into the tool rest. The support of the tool is at the hip of the turner and the tool rest
3. An excellent view of the bowl profile is seen looking down the edge of the rim to the top of the live center. While standing in front of the rim.
4. The most efficient roughing cuts with the side ground gouge are not bevel riding. The bevel is rolled off the wood slightly.
5. the last 1/4 of wood removal is done with a bevel riding cut.
6. The control of the cut does involve rolling the tool.
7. I don't think it is possible to get a catch with this cut because there is no way for the wood to drive onto the tool.

This is a very aggressive wood removal cut. It takes off 1/2 to 3/4 inch wide shavings with a 5/8 diameter tool.
Creates a terrible surface because the bevel is not riding and large cuts pull the fibers.
So care must be taken to cut the last 1/4 inch of wood removed with a bevel riding cut.

I think of it as one tool in my techniques drawer. If I want to shape a bowl in a hurry. I use it.

 

[hockenbery]

Between centers as in driving with a spur center? Compared to other common methods using faceplates, screw centers, scroll or pin chucks, an unnecessary danger for dismounts. The beginner is likely to make mistakes, no need to punish his face. Keep things sturdy.

.

The spur drive does not hold as well as the faceplate.
Oddly a severe catch is likely to just spin the spur and leave the bowl in place while the lathe races on.
Where a severe catch on a faceplate might break something.

If the spur is driven into solid wood and the lathe tailstock locks it is a solid hold.
The turner must tighten the tailstock occasionally as the center drive deeper into the wood as you rough.

I have my students do their first bowl on a worm screw,
Their second between centers.

If you have any interest in controlling the grain pattern, between centers is a must.

Al

 

[john lucas]

I suggest new people who read about using roughing gouge on bowls watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IOhHeyoZLaY