Question about alcohol dye

[Breck Whitworth]

I have had a request for a two colored bowl for a customer. I have some Artisan Premium Coloring Dye, that is alcohol based premixed dye on hand and before attempting what is in my mind to do, I though it prudent to ask some questions first.
This will be a laminated bowl like I have made in the past but instead of using contrasting woods for effect. This customer wants specific colors for the contrasting pieces. If I use say maple and this type dye, when dried completely I will coat it with a food safe finish that will take a while to cure. My question is will the dye in any way be a danger for a bowl that will be used for food. Have any of you ever used a dyed bowl for a special occasion serving bowl or platter? Just want to be sure before making this one. Thanks for any info you can give me.

 

[Raul McCai]

You need a lot more information that you seem to currently have.

Aniline dyes are known to have a toxicity level incompatible with foot items. I've read they attack the liver.
But The term Aniline may (or not) be nothing but a linguistic hold out in the face of changing chemistry.
Aniline is very very toxic, but a lot of dyes going by that name haven't got any aniline in them.
Dyes have changed, chemistry has come a long way.

Most of the modern so called alinine dyes are really just complicated acid dyes.

So you have to back to the manufacturer, get them to tell you, and use your own judgment after that.

Odds are they won't have got an FDA approval ( think $$$) and won't tell you it;' food safe.
Then you need to look at the chemical composition do a search on them and whether they interact to create a hazard and then it's back to using the old noggin again.

And of course the ingredients may be technically food safe, but the manufacturing process may not be.


Here's a couple of informative links
http://www.pysanky.info/Chemical_Dyes/History.html
http://www.pysanky.info/Chemistry/Dyes.html
Don't think they are dispositive of the question. They are not. They are just information.

 

[Brian McInturff]

Basically all finishes are fine to use. The hazard typically exist while they are in "raw" form and not after they have "cured".

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Food-safe wood dye

I have had a request for a two colored bowl for a customer. I have some Artisan Premium Coloring Dye, that is alcohol based premixed dye on hand and before attempting what is in my mind to do, I though it prudent to ask some questions first.
This will be a laminated bowl like I have made in the past but instead of using contrasting woods for effect. This customer wants specific colors for the contrasting pieces. If I use say maple and this type dye, when dried completely I will coat it with a food safe finish that will take a while to cure. My question is will the dye in any way be a danger for a bowl that will be used for food. Have any of you ever used a dyed bowl for a special occasion serving bowl or platter? Just want to be sure before making this one. Thanks for any info you can give me.

Breck, I did a quick search and found the following article that may answer your problem: http://www.chris-reilly.org/blog/tutorials/food-safe-color-wood-stain/

Basically, he uses commonly-available food coloring to make his own dyes by dissolving them in water. As a guess, these same substances would be soluble in alcohol or alcohol with a trace of water if you are concerned with raising the wood grain. He is after brilliant colors, but by mixing available colors you probably can obtain more subdued shades. The big issue is will the colors hold up with time and exposure to light.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Beyond what Raul has said about dyes, I have quite a bit of experience with dyeing wood. I would rank the Craft Supplies Artisan dyes at the very bottom of all that I have used. The colors are drab and fade quickly. TransTint liquid dyes have a great range of colors, but I have found that after a few years that the colors fade somewhat, especially the reds and blues. My experience with TransFast powdered dyes is rather limited since I usually use it for coloring epoxy and other clear resins. My favorite for coloring figured maple is Chestnut Spirit Stain dyes, available from Wood World of Texas (recently Craft Supplies also started selling it). I have been using them for about three years and so far the colors have held up much better than the other dyes that I have used.

Apply varnish or any oil based finish over dyes can alter their appearance significantly. Also consider that oil based varnishes have an amber color which is the equivalent of adding yellow to the color of the dye. This means that blues will appear green and reds will appear orange. Regardless of toxicity, using the dye under a film finish on treenware is a bad idea because all film finishes develop microscopic cracks as the wood moves. These microscopic cracks allow moisture to get beneath the surface and because all of the dyes mentioned are water soluble, the colors will gradually become muddy looking.

If it were me, I would not use the Artisan dyes for this project. I am very intrigued by the food coloring that Dennis mentioned.

 

[Breck Whitworth]

Thanks for the info, I don't want to use dye for appearances and in doing so make it unsafe for using. I will continue to research and experiment.

 

[Owen Lowe]

after a few years that the colors fade somewhat, especially the reds and blues.

I do very little dying but would highly recommend a dye topping coat that has a UV-resistant quality. As you know it’s the UV in light that fades the colors. The Krylon product below is marketed to artists working in all sorts of media, so I’d say it’s a reliable product to use on turnings.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I do very little dying but would highly recommend a dye topping coat that has a UV-resistant quality. As you know it’s the UV in light that fades the colors. The Krylon product below is marketed to artists working in all sorts of media, so I’d say it’s a reliable product to use on turnings.

View attachment 8902

Thanks. I use that product as well as Krylon Preserve It!, Krylon Matte Finish, and Krylon Workable Fixatif. The pieces that faded were in a room that receives no sunlight. The room lighting is usually just low level incandescent lighting. I believe that the primary reason for fading is that the colors were able to migrate deeper into the wood. The Chestnut dyes have about 5% shellac which seems to help "fix" the dyes in the wood.

 

[Gretch Flo]

I know nothing about the longevity of my alcohol bases aniline dyes. However I use 3+ coats of my sanding 1# cut shellac sealer after I think I am satisfied with the color.. Bill would this help????
Had my open house tonite and tomorrow. I sold 2 dyed bowls finished yesterday and one finished the day before that which was a gorgeous reddish/maroon color on poplar crotch figure. I use 4-6 coats of danish oil on top of the shellac sanding sealer, synthetic "steel" wool in between. Some of you know my woes trying to use lacquer 3-4 years ago-I gave up on that.Gretch

 

[Bill Boehme]

I know nothing about the longevity of my alcohol bases aniline dyes. However I use 3+ coats of my sanding 1# cut shellac sealer after I think I am satisfied with the color.. Bill would this help????
Had my open house tonite and tomorrow. I sold 2 dyed bowls finished yesterday and one finished the day before that which was a gorgeous reddish/maroon color on poplar crotch figure. I use 4-6 coats of danish oil on top of the shellac sanding sealer, synthetic "steel" wool in between. Some of you know my woes trying to use lacquer 3-4 years ago-I gave up on that.Gretch

That is good information and worth trying. What brand of dye are you using?

Here is something that you might be interested in trying --
One thing that I learned about amber finishes is that I need to take that into account when deciding what final color I want ... or else I'll wind up with a color that I didn't want. For example, an amber finish over blue will result in a green color. Amber over purple will result in a color that is somewhere between dark brown and dark gray depending on what shade of purple you start with. Amber over green results in a grass green.

When an amber topcoat is OK, I found that a very satisfactory product to use is Minwax Antique Oil (MAO). MAO is actually a blend of linseed oil and polyurethane varnish and probably some naphtha and/or mineral spirits to thin it down so that it make a good wipe-on finish. I use old rags to apply it. The reasons that I like it are:

• It doesn't cause the dyes to bleed if you allow enough time for the dye to completely dry
• It fills the pores in the wood which results in a nice smooth finish
• By making two or three applications of MAO, I get a nice glossy topcoat that doesn't have some of the problems of spray finishes such as orange peel.

 

[Gretch Flo]

That is good information and worth trying. What brand of dye are you using?
I am using Craft Supply usa's aniline alcohol base dyes (per rec a few years ago on this forum)

Am examining a piece as I type that is a small bowl I dyed 3 years ago -birdseye maple, and it has been sitting near my west windows. Due to long overhang of those windows, direct sunlight is very limited. Can't really remember the blueness/ blackness of it when i began, but I believe it has faded some. I'll try to find if I photoed it, Gretch

 

[Brian McInturff]

This isn't dyed but is FBE that usually will fade quickly when exposed to sunlight. I turned this in 2008 and it sets in the living room and gets the afternoon sunlight through the window. It was finished with an acrylic that has UV inhibitors in it.
Not bad for over 7 years...