Push cut or pull cut.......which is capable of a more refined result?

[Odie]

Bowl turning 101......

I suspect there will be varied opinions on this, but for me, I generally get better results with a pull cut.

There are times when you have no choice, but when that choice exists, the pull cut is my best bet.

=o=

 

[Jim Reynolds]

Do you have thoughts about why this is your opinion?

 

[Russ Braun]

Soooo, you’re pushing the pull cut Odie…..lol!

 

[hockenbery]

With the Ellsworth grind the pull cut usually gives the cleaner surface due to the sharper bevel angle and the high shear angle of the cut.

The bevel angle of the push cut off the nose is about 45 degrees
The wing bevel angle used in the pull cut is about 30 degrees

One nice aspect of the pull cut is that is is almost impossible to get a catch as long as the nose is kept off the wood
On bowls the pull cut can often be started close to the tenon than the push cut.
Also the pull cut on a NE bowl will almost always cut the bark edge cleanly without tearing tearing it off.

I find the Push cut more effective at shaping and removing the wood
Pull cut refining the surface and cutting the bark cleanly

Resulting surface can be sanded off the lathe with 220 when the bowl has dried in 2-3 days

 

[Kurt Manley]

I'm just getting to the point where I am starting to dive into more nuanced things like this - no opinion from me but thanks for exploring ideas like this, I love reading these types of threads

 

[Alan Weinberg]

With the Ellsworth grind the pull cut usually gives the cleaner surface due to the sharper bevel angle and the high shear angle of the cut.

The bevel angle of the push cut off the nose is about 45 degrees
The wing bevel angle used in the pull cut is about 30 degrees

One nice aspect of the pull cut is that is is almost impossible to get a catch as long as the nose is kept off the wood
On bowls the pull cut can often be started close to the tenon than the push cut.
Also the pull cut on a NE bowl will almost always cut the bark edge cleanly without tearing tearing it off.

I find the Push cut more effective at shaping and removing the wood View attachment 67840
Pull cut refining the surface and cutting the bark
View attachment 67839 View attachment 67838
Resulting surface can be sanded off the lathe with 220 when the bowl has dried in 2-3 days
View attachment 67837

How is Hockenbery’s second picture different from a shear (sheer) cut used in refining surface?

 

[robo hippy]

I use the push cut 99% of the time. However, on shear scraping, I use more of a pull cut. Depending on how you do them, the only real difference I can see is which side of the handle you are standing on. Drop the handle with any gouge or shear scrape, and you get the same results. The wood you are turning doesn't know the difference, and also, every wood cuts differently, even pieces from the same tree. I always stand at the end of the lathe for bowl turning or at my Vicmark 240 has a pivoting headstock, so I stand straight up. Perhaps if you turn on a long bed lathe, the pull cut may be easier.

robo hippy

 

[Chris Hoehle]

I'm primarily a pull-cutter. I also do something (that several people at Seattle Woodturners told me they'd never seen before when I demoed out there a couple years ago) that I call "pushing the pull cut" where you line up as though for a pull cut then push. I employ this technique primarily on the wide rims of shallow ogee bowls and platters. I can pull towards myself and push away without changing the gouge position and develop a nicely cut shallow convex curve on the rim.

An additional advantage of the pull cut that hasn't been mentioned is that it puts you in a much better position ergonomically (much less stress on the shoulder). I hadn't really thought about that but Dale Larson mentioned it in one of his demos at Rocky Mountain Woodturning Symposium.

 

[Richard Coers]

It's the skill of the turner that makes the difference.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Typically, if I'm shaping and removing material a push cut is what I use. Once I get close and I need to refine the shape or clean up the surface I'll use a pull cut. The angle of attack can vary as well. As Robo says, it can vary depending on the wood and how well I can get at the angle on the form. Getting a nice surface on a piece of black cherry is different than on a soft wood like willow or a punky piece of sweet gum. There are times when a traditional push cut down the long downhill side of a hollow form or bowl gives me a great surface. Other times not and then it can be a high angle push or pull depending on how well I can get at the angle/curve. Net, it depends on the wood and also how good my motor skills and control are that day. It can vary too.

 

[hockenbery]

How is Hockenbery’s second picture different from a shear (sheer) cut used in refining surface?

Depends on who is defining the cuts. It may be the same in your vocabulary.
We don’t have a standard woodturning vocabulary

Pull cut to me is bevel riding cutting on the wing with the handle leading and the nose of the gouge trailing.


Shear cut to me is the angle of the cutting edge closer to vertical than horizontal

When the handle gets dropped more the pull cut’s shear and gets more vertical.

Gets more convoluted when the pull cut is used on spindles

When I cut with the leading edge of the wing and the flute up - I call that a shear cut too because the angle of the leading wing edge is more vertical than horizontal
]

 

[David Wyke]

I establish the shape with a push cut and refine the shape with a pull cut. I do drop the handle some with the pull cut to get a shear effect when refining the shape. I go full shear cut to smooth the bowl.

 

[Vincent Vogel]

I have found that a pull cut works better on punky wood for less tearout. I use a pull cut to finish the outside of a bowl. Then either shear scrape with a gouge or use a negative rake scraper. Sometimes use a negative rake scraper as a shear scraper too.

 

[Odie]

Do you have thoughts about why this is your opinion?

Sure do! ...and, this exert from my original post is why my opinion is what it is:

I generally get better results with a pull cut.

(This is not to say I don't use a push cut......I do indeed!)

Soooo, you’re pushing the pull cut Odie…..lol!

Ha,ha.....

I expected to see varied opinions, Russ....and that's what I was fishing for with this thread. It's all just a way to get a discussion going.....to see what comes of it!

There is no right way or wrong way......just what you think is the best way for YOU! .....let's talk about that.

=o=

 

[Paul May]

I shape the rough form with a push cut and quickly switch to a pull. Granted my segmented turnings are mostly roughed out to begin with. Getting too aggressive with a segmented blank is not a good idea.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

I use a pull cut to get the shape on the outside and use a couple of very light push cuts to get that smooth no tear out finish. The inside is done with all push cuts.

 

[Dean Center]

This has been an eye-opening thread. In my hands, there's no comparison--a push cut is far superior. I've never felt truly comfortable with a pull cut, can't reliably control the depth of cut--I think I need to stop by somebody's shop for a lesson.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

Bio-mechanics are such that I suspect most will find it easier to trace a specific curve, and to make that curve fair, using a pulling gesture rather than pushing. Not in every circumstance. Push cuts may yield a smoother surface, or remove more wood, so the answer to the question depends on what factor you're trying to optimize.

 

[Simeon Mackrides]

I favor the Push cut because I get a better feel of the point of contact as the tool's edge meets the wood. When I am removing material, the pull cut is the way to go, but I feel I have better tool control in push mode.

 

[Michael Anderson]

It's the skill of the turner that makes the difference.

Yep, I agree, as evidenced by the variety of confident responses here haha

 

[Wyatt Holm]

I use a push cut, but if I can't access with a push cut, or I need to fine tune the shape then I pull cut.

 

[Kevin Jesequel]

Pushing and pulling are both capable of the same results. It is a slicing cut that produces the cleanest surface. Whether you push or pull depends on tool grind and ergonomics. For the outside of a side grain bowl or hollow form between centers, a pull cut with a swept back wing will allow you to cut from smallest to largest diameter. The tailstock is in the way to accomplish this with a push cut. Access can be an issue on the headstock side of a hollowform or bowl once mounted in a chuck. I will sometimes use a push cut with a spindle gouge going downhill towards the bottom (the “wrong” way to cut a side grain oriented blank) and then clean it up with a pull cut with my bowl gouge. A push cut is ideally suited to spindles mounted between centers where down hill cuts will produce the cleanest surface. Probably the reason it was a professional spindle turner (Batty) who saw the efficacy of the push cut on spindles and decided to grind his bowl gouges like a spindle gouge. Around the same time Liam O’Neil was developing the swept back grind in Ireland. I think the wing was used mostly for a peeling cut until David Ellsworth made his modifications to it. The inside of a bowl requires a push cut to get a slicing cut. Most turners seem to have an easier time with a 40/40 type grind that will slice with the flute between 1 and 2 o’clock, than with an Ellsworth grind that requires the flute to be at 12 o’clock. Though mastering this allows the inside of a bowl to be cut from rim to bottom with a single gouge for open and slightly closed bowl profiles, as opposed to the 40/40 which is too acute to maintain bevel support through the bottom of the bowl. The wing on a swept back gouge also allows for a peeling cut to remove the majority of a bowl’s interior quickly and efficiently before switching to a slicing cut.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

an Ellsworth grind that requires the bevel to be at 12 o’clock.

upside down? Don’t you mean bevel at 6 o’clock or am I missing something?

 

[Kevin Jesequel]

upside down? Don’t you mean bevel at 6 o’clock or am I missing something?

Sorry, flute, not bevel🤦‍♂️ Original comment has been edited.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I use the pull cut for the reasons mentioned by others, but I'm not very good at controlling the cut.

When we talk about the pull cut, I suspect some are using a true pull cut and others are talking about a scraping pull cut.

 

[hockenbery]

I use the pull cut for the reasons mentioned by others, but I'm not very good at controlling the cut.

When we talk about the pull cut, I suspect some are using a true pull cut and others are talking about a scraping pull cut.

I rest the handle on my side and shift my weight backwards and rotate the body.
I’m usually following a curve I’ve created with a push cut.
Some shapes present a challenge. Need to see the curve and position the tool.
I often “push” the pull cut by working from behind the gouge the handle is pulling the cut.
Here you can see the body moving.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

When we talk about the pull cut, I suspect some are using a true pull cut and others are talking about a scraping pull cut.

Yes, when I refer to a pull cut, I mean scraping. A bevel riding pull cut is beyond my present skills.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

I rest the handle on my side and shift my weight backwards and rotate the body.
I’m usual following a curve I’ve created with a push cut.
Some shapes present a challenge. Need to see the curve and position the tool.
I often “push” the pull cut by working from behind the gouge the handle is pulling the cut.
Here you can see the body moving the cut
View attachment 67960
View attachment 67959

In your first gif you appear to be scraping. In the second it looks like you are bevel riding.

 

[hockenbery]

In your first gif you appear to be scraping. In the second it looks like you are bevel riding.

I think it is the camera angle and the curvature of the bowl that makes it look like a scrape
I’m confident it’s two views of the same cut repeated in time. Being able to see inside the flute a bit on the first suggests a cut.

Edit : look at the shavings on my hand. As @Kevin Jesequel posts below. I had’t thought to point out the fine shavings. You don’t get those scraping and from a shear scrape the shavings anre like anngle hairs.

I do scraping cuts sometime. The flute is much more closed.
Here is a shear scrape. I can make that an aggressive scrape by raising the handle to near horizontal

 

[Kevin Jesequel]

When we talk about the pull cut, I suspect some are using a true pull cut and others are talking about a scraping pull cut.

I suspect you are correct. I don’t think many instructors teach the slicing pull cut. It can lead to a catch if not done correctly. The Oneway and Robust safety drives are great for practicing this cut because if the tool catches, the wood will stop spinning. Crank the tailstock and go again. You’ll know you are slicing when the shavings are shaped like corkscrews, like what you get from a skew on spindles.

 

[hockenbery]

don’t think many instructors teach the slicing pull cut.

A lot of it is limited time. In a one day bowl workshop I might do some individual coaching but would be unlikely to teach the pull cut as many will be struggling for consistency with the push cut.
In a one day ball in a ball workshop ( intermediate level) I have the students use the pull cut when the ball is rotated to have the endgrain perpendicular to the ways.

In a class that met for eight 3 hour sessions I had a student teach himself the pull cut on the first bowl.
Here is a guy doing perfectly fine. i want him to try the push cut and at same time I need to compliment him on the results he’s getting with the pull cut. I tell him he’s a few classes ahead and we will get to the pull cut. He tells me he’s a dentist and the pull cut is natural for him because he use some dental tools the same way. I finally convince him to humor me and try the push cut because he will need it on some shapes where a pull cut won’t work.
A little later he tells me it was good to do a few of those push cuts because we use that to hollow the bowl.

 

[Larry Copas]

A little off topic, but I have learned how to use a bowl gouge doing a pull cut on long spindle work. I like the skew for spindle work but on the very long spindles I was getting vibration and had to set up a spindle steady to complete the job. I found I often can switch to a pull cut and not get vibration so I don't have to get out the steady. I do not get as smooth of cut as I would with the skew but its close and a little courser sandpaper will fix it.

 

[Neil S]

Roughing down/out green wood - Pull cut
2nd turning and seasoned blanks - Push cut
Finishing cut on outside - Shear cut
Finishing cut on inside - mix of all of the above + reverse shear/scrape with both push and pull

Pull cut = cutting edge trailing handle
Push cut = handle trailing cutting edge
Shear cut = handle and cutting edge somewhere close to vertical alignment with bevel rubbing
Reverse scrape = flute facing wood - handle somewhere near horizontal
Shear/scrape = flute facing wood with handle dropped

 

[Randy Heinemann]

Most, if not all, posts in this thread indicate preference . . . so is there any "technical" reason why a push or pull cut would be superior?

One of the things I learned during my initial turning days was that a turner needs to be ambidextrous and needs to technically be able to use whichever hand or whatever cut or tool is required for the "piece of the moment". However, if there is a a non-preferential reason for either, it would be useful to know.

 

[robo hippy]

For me, the cleanest cuts have the highest sheer/shear angle. The long wings of a swept back gouge are easy to get a high shear angle on, or a gouge with a ) shaped nose profile. A shear scrape with a scraper can be dropped way down as well. The higher the shear angle is, the easier it is for the cutting edge to get under the fibers for a cleaner cut. There are many ways to skin a cat fish.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

so is there any "technical" reason why a push or pull cut would be superior?

More acute bevel angle -> smoother cut
Higher shear angle -> smoother cut

This shows the similarity to skew used nose down. Cut is close to a skew in quality but not as good on most woods

 

[Randy Heinemann]

More acute bevel angle -> smoother cut Higher shear angle -> smoother cut Bevel angle?...That seems to be a separate discussion; maybe a sharpening discussion? My questions was more directed toward technique; meaning that, using the same gouge with the same sharpened angle, would a push cut or pull cut yield the better surface. My woodturning education would indicate that technique contributes much more to a high quality surface than a more accute angle. Shear(sheer) scraping is one method I use to get my surface cleaner and smoother, but that really isn't about the cut being either pull or push.

 

[hockenbery]

Using the same gouge with the same sharpened angle, would a push cut or pull cut yield the better surface

Most gouge grinds present a smaller bevel angle in the pull cut than they do in the push cut.

If you have the same bevel angle the improved cut would be from a higher shear angle.
Trent Bosch uses a finish cut gouge with a near vertical wing on the outside of a bowl in flute up push cuts.
This has a highest shear angle you can get ( but it also has a bevel angle of around 40 degrees.)
That tool probably out performs most pull cuts.

Bevel angle?...That seems to be a separate discussion; maybe a sharpening discussion Dr ?

In my turning bevel angle is a component of the pull cut because I use an Ellsworth grind .
The nose bevel angle is 60 degrees. The off nose bevel angle used in most push cuts is around 45 degrees. The wing bevel angle used in pull cuts is around 30 degrees

To me bevel angle is an important consideration.

Should bevel be a separate discussion? Maybe ?

It’s just hard to separate variables when one doesn’t alway remain constant as the other changes.

 

[hughie]

A good question Odie, it got me thinking. So for me sometimes it depends on the wood I am turning, for example Australian Blackwood Acacia Melanoxylon has at times some curly grain, and it dictates the cutting direction. But in general on hollow forms internally, a pull cut using the Woodcut Pro-Forme hollower produces some of my best cuts.

 

[John Grace]

I find I lose 'control' too easily when trying to finish with 'push' cuts. When I'm down to what I believe to be my final passes, I prefer a 'pull' or what I call dragging cut with only the tips of three fingers on the tool. For me, this allows my fingers to 'feel' any contours still needing addressing or cleaning up torn grain.