Punk wood

[olaf Vogel]

Last fall a neighbour dropped by to say her big Manitoba maple was getting cut down.
The pieces spent the winter frozen into the ice.

It seems global warming has brought spring to Ontario prematurely, so I managed to dig out a few chunks.
The first piece shows some interesting and colors, so I kept going.


But it also has large punky area.


Normally, I'd soak the are in Minwax Wood Hardener. But I can't find that at any retailer any more.

The rest of its covered in Anchor Seal for slow drying.
The punky section was left raw.

So, I'm currently stuck about what to do with that section.
Eventually I might fill it with epoxy, but am not yet sure. I'm pretty sure that filling it now would be a bad idea.
I'd like to save the piece

Any suggestions?

 

[hockenbery]

I have used Polyal 2000 on falling apart punky wood.
I saw a kit on line for about $40 two 16 oz parts.
Just have to decide if you like the bowl $40 worth.

It basically plastcises the punky wood and is thin enough to penetrate up to about a 1/4" or more..
Polyal 2000's only virtue is that it works.

It is a pain to use. Mix equal parts of a&b a paint it on in 30 seconds because by 60 seconds it is hardening in the cup and become useles. So mix lots of small batches and one foam brush per batch. It dries very quickly so you can be turning within minutes of application. It will give a plastic sheen to the treated areas so works fine with any somewhat glossy finish because they all give A similar plastic look. If you used oil for a soft finish the treated part is not going to match. Smells bad and you need a ventilated work space. You have a nice inside curve. You should be able to pour the inside by holding the punk to bottom center and let gravity even it out. It turns easily if you get a puddle.

I have only used it on partially dry pieces like the historic wye oak. White oak left in a field for 18 months while the state figured out how to give away state property to artists which it planned in doing the day after a storm took the largest white oak. The heart wood was fine but the sapwood would peel off in your fingers.

As you turn you may want to recoat spots. While it does penetrate it sometimes hardens near the surface especially if you get close the end of is use by window when applying.

All in all might be the best product for saving the worst wood.

 

[robo hippy]

I totally avoid those sections. You can get them to hold together, but it is a lot of extra work... I would be wary of that piece also because of the two or three dark growth rings near the center. Those look like ring shake to me, which is a crack around the growth ring. Just being discolored is an indicator, and you may not be able to see a crack, but they can open up as the piece dries, and/or come apart as you turn.

I have to miss my annual fishing trip to Ontario this summer. We would fly north out of Kenora for 5 days on a conservation lake.... Beautiful up there, even if there aren't any trees.... well, compared to the part of Oregon I live in...

robo hippy

 

[John Shillabeer]

Olaf

If you want to go ahead in spite of the Robo's warnings, try your local Home Hardware store. They sell something called "wood petrifier" and it is only about $12 for 8 oz. So you don't have to spend a lot to experiment. I discovered it recently but have only used a little. Too little to be a fair test.

John

 

[olaf Vogel]

Thanks Al
Polyall 2000 is not one I;ve heard of, Will give do some research.
I was also researching the use of epoxy, but very much thinned down by acetone. Haven't tried it yet.

Robo,
On this one, I stayed well out of the line of firing. But its so fresh and soft that it cut beautifully.
No excitement.

The second one was a bit more punky. and a bit bigger. But I like the scalloped edges and multiple colors



Not sure what this mounting method is called, but I've found it to work extremely well.
A birch ply disc, #10 screws from the back, on a faceplate. I usually put one long screw through the middle to get the placement correct. Then hit with a dead blow hammer til its well seated.

I was very close to running out of swing here. About 1/4" Clearance.
A little chainsawing was required to get it balanced.


Didn't have a chance to finish the inside, since my forearms were killing me.
And I'll have some epoxying to do.


But I'm optimistic it will be an interesting piece.

 

[Odie]

Olaf

If you want to go ahead in spite of the Robo's warnings, try your local Home Hardware store. They sell something called "wood petrifier" and it is only about $12 for 8 oz. So you don't have to spend a lot to experiment. I discovered it recently but have only used a little. Too little to be a fair test.

John

I've not heard of the wood petrifier. Is it similar to the Minwax wood hardener, but just another similar product from another manufacturer.....or, different? I've used the Minwax wood hardener, with less than perfect results......so haven't used it in quite awhile. I usually avoid punky wood altogether these days.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PC-Products...te-/282073568112?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Minwax-4170...er-/162156500303?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

ko

 

[Mike Johnson]

Olaf,

That should be a beautiful piece if you can keep it together, hope it works out for you!

 

[Bill Boehme]

I've used Starbond super thin CA. Just enough to soak into the wood, but don't saturate it to the point that the CA puddles on the surface. I haven't used the Minwax Wood Hardener in a while because it tends to make the wood too hard and quickly dulls tools.

 

[john lucas]

I have had good success on some punky wood with System 3 mirror coat. It gets very thin when it starts to cure and I had it actually run through some Red Oak pores. Haven't used it for a large section of punky wood like that so don't know how it would work. You can get it from Woodcraft.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Regarding Minwax Wood Hardener, $10.32/pint at Home Depot, does it stay clear leaving an acceptable surface for follow on clear coatings? The can's instructions only mention following up with the Minwax filler.

 

[olaf Vogel]

Thanks for all the feedback, there's obviously a few things to try out.
- epoxy thinned down - which have the ingredients for on hand.
- System 3 - I've heard of and likely played with something similar. It was a 2 part epoxy, quite thin, that was pored over paintings to get the high shine look.
- CA - I have used, but only strategically, on small sections since its just too expensive.
- PC Rot Terminator is interesting - but looks like thinned down epoxy resin as well.

The Minwax wood hardener did finish well. BUT, all i had done was soak the punky area, then return the piece. So much of the surface was sheared off. And the punky area was a very different color anyway.

I'll have to finish cut the second piece today and then consider my options.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Years ago when I was in the boat building business we would saturate the item with resin and "bag"
the item and attach a vacuum pump to the bag and pull a vacuum for several hours until the resin was set.
You could do the same thing with a large piece of wood to incorporate the resin throughout the piece.
The wood type resin is a thinner viscosity product which usually is set with heat in an oven.
The other products listed above might work fine under a vacuum but could take longer to cure out the
deeper it travels into the wood billet.

 

[robo hippy]

Amazing piece.

There is some thing on the market called Cactus Juice, which I think is a wood stabilizer, but don't really know about it.

robo hippy

 

[Mike Brazeau]

Olaf, a couple of years ago or so I saw PC Petrifier in a Home Hardware flyer. Local store had to order it in. 16oz. Bottle was about $12 I think. In the US Home Depot sell it and available in larger quantities. I finally used it the other day on some spalted maple for a wig stand. Worked great. No staining and no obnoxious solvent like the Minwax Hardener, which I believe is just diluted laquer. PC Petrifier is aqueous polyurethane based. You can see details and MSDS at pcepoxy.com I want to try it to stabilize some very spalted wood I have for pen or box blanks.

 

[olaf Vogel]

Years ago when I was in the boat building business we would saturate the item with resin and "bag"
the item and attach a vacuum pump to the bag and pull a vacuum for several hours until the resin was set.
You could do the same thing with a large piece of wood to incorporate the resin throughout the piece.
The wood type resin is a thinner viscosity product which usually is set with heat in an oven.
The other products listed above might work fine under a vacuum but could take longer to cure out the
deeper it travels into the wood billet.

Hi mike, This is an intriguing idea. I have a vacuum pump and a bag (Not sure if it fits this piece.) for doing veneer work on DIY speakers. But I used standard wood glue, not epoxy.

I assume the wood needs to be dry first?

West systems has good article
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/Vacuum-Bagging-Techniques.pdf

Unlike bowls or hollow forms, it seems well suited to platters like this where the bag could squeeze in from both sides.

Have you tried this on woodturnings?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Olaf,

I have a glass vacuum chamber that I have used on smaller wood blanks. A heavy plastic bag should work
fine on a large odd shaped piece, you just need to make sure you don't pull any of the resin into your vacuum pump. There are several methods used to prevent resin from making its way into your pump. You would want your wood to be fairly dry so it can absorb a good amount of the resin to stabilize the wood.

You could possibly use a 55 gallon drum with a removable lid and attach your vacuum line to the threaded fitting on the drum lid if you can get a good enough seal on the drum and lid. You can collapse a 55 gallon drum with a vacuum pump if you can get a good enough seal on it. I have seen 500,000 gallon stainless steel vessels collapsed from being pumped down without a vent on the tank. You can control the amount of vacuum on the vessel with a vacuum gauge and a small valve. You would need enough liquid resin in the barrel to submerge the wood item in. That is the advantage of using a plastic bag, it minimizes the amount of resin needed to encase your wood piece.

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... and no obnoxious solvent like the Minwax Hardener, which I believe is just diluted laquer...

It definitely has a strong smell which is mainly from acetone and methanol fumes. However, there is no lacquer in the product. It is a water clear very hard and brittle plastic which I assume is polystyrene based on being hard and brittle as well as the smell of the dust when it is sanded and the smell when it is burned. I wouldn't recommend my testing methods, but I did it a number of years ago when I was still invincible. 🙄 I'm no longer a fan of using Minwax wood Hardener for woodturning for several reasons:

• It is very hard and abrasive and dulls turning tools quickly.
• It is prone to chipping when turned.
  
• The dust created when turning and sanding is noxious.
• It tends to be a bit messy because it is so thin.
• It's a bit on the pricey side considering what it is made of. If you're really frugal, you could probably make your own equivalent poison.

It's great stuff for its intended purpose which is repair of slightly punky wood on exterior things like window sills, porch columns, and decorative trimwork. It doesn't darken or discolor wood if that is important.

 

[Mike Brazeau]

Thanks Bill. Just had a look at the MSDS for the Minwax product. https://www.minwax.com/document/MSDS/en/027426417007 Certainly not something one would want to work with routinely. I was quite pleased with turning characteristics after hardening with PC Petrifier. I forgot to take a picture of the wigstand but I kept the form very simple because of the punky wood. A simple concave curve on the base and the outer portion which was a smooth flat surface peeled off very nicely. Really only removed a couple of mm of wood after hardening. It absorbed into the wood very well.

 

[Raul McCai]

Wood Hardener.

I forget why I was doing it, but I tried one of those wood hardening epoxies ( Abatron) a while back.
Turned out that (A) they really meant it when they said to stir for ten minutes, and (B) It did not "penetrate" as promised. I tried soaking in a bath, for hours, of the stuff and I got no penetration. It would pipette down open pores - a little bit

As I recall I even tried thinning it with Naptha
then alcohol and even Acetone

I agree with this guy about the effectiveness of these things:
http://www.ewoodcare.com/Epoxy Penetration Test.pdf
Though I haven't tried RotFix ir any of the others
Abatron was enough to spoil my faith in any of them