Pros vs beginners safety

[Paul Durden]

Some of us beginners learn from YouTUBE, but we see pros do things that are seemingly unsafe. I see it as a real issue until you develop some sense of what is prudent. This is just a few things I’ve seen that seem like big NOs for me. Am I being overly paranoid?
1. Starting a bowl blank on a wood worm screw with lathe turning and holding the blank by hand
2. Turning with fingers hanging over the tool rest. A perfect setup to crush a finger between tool rest and wood.
3. Similarly, sanding using the tool rest to brace hand.
4. Taking a huge cut with a bowl gouge on an a rough bowl blank with no tailstock support with a relatively small tenon in the chuck.
5. Turning with no face shield or even safety glasses in sight.
I could go on and on, but are these folks just lucky or does their experience change the relative danger of this kind of stuff? and beginners trying to imitate without thinking through it.

 

[Russell Nugent]

I'm no pro but...

1. Pretty safe once you're experience and the wood is not got real sharp corners or bark etc... I do it at pretty slow speed.

2. I avoid this in bowl/hollowform turning. Spindle turning sometimes need to support the blank from behind so finger or two go over/under the rest to the other side of the spindle. Keep in mind sometimes the camera angles on you tube videos may make it seem like the fingers are between the tool rest and workpiece.

3. I don't and would only if sanding in reverse

4. Decisions that have to be made on your own. Individual decisions about what you're comfortable with.

5. My eyes earn my income so I'll pass.

Yes experience helps mitigate some of these things but with experience sometimes comes a certain level of complacency. On many jobsites it's the experienced people that injure themselves.
Safety decisions are up to you alone. If something makes you feel unsafe don't do it, find a different way.
YouTube pros aren't necessarily pros and they aren't safety videos. I believe the AAW has a list of videos somewhere curated for safety.

 

[hockenbery]

First a lot of the YouTube videos are best left unwatched. Many are done by folks who have never been invited to demo. They aren’t particularly good turners.


It’s been my experience that pros are very safety conscious. If they get injured and can’t work they don’t get paid

1. Starting a bowl blank on a wood worm screw with lathe turning and holding the blank by hand
2. Turning with fingers hanging over the tool rest. A perfect setup to crush a finger between tool r

I do both of these I believe safely
The worm screw Mount. To me it is safe at low speed and if you have the reflexes to leg go.

I cross the too rest on bowls a little because I tend to have my forefinger behind the cut. I’m not going to get a catch so there is no danger of my hand getting between the toolrest and the wood
You can see this in a push and pull cut


As @Russell Nugent said spindles need finger support.

Taking a huge cut with a bowl gouge on an a rough bowl blank with no tailstock support with a relatively small tenon in the chuck.

A huge cut with a sharp tool doesn’t put a lot of pressure on the wood.

 

[Brian Gustin]

Some of us beginners learn from YouTUBE, but we see pros do things that are seemingly unsafe.
I could go on and on, but are these folks just lucky or does their experience change the relative danger of this kind of stuff? and beginners trying to imitate without thinking through it.

90% , if not more, or youtube channels are not particularly pros - they're just in it to make money. If you see a so-called pro that is doing something you think is dangerous and they do not address that technique, then there's hundreds of other youtube videos to look at. over the last 5 years I have curated my own list of youtube channels (other than a couple of "beginner" level channels that I no longer find interesting) down to perhaps just 5 or 6 channels that I'll watch, and recommend to others - Granted some of them DO have videos out of them doing relatively dangerous things, but they also very often explain in great detail that it IS dangerous, and why they are using such a technique (and usually recommend safer means to do the job) Starting a blank on a woodworm screw with the lathe running, they're usually only running the lathe at less than 100 RPM anyways (which is slower than you could spin the blank on by hand if it wasn't for the friction) and have the reflexes and blank preparation (and hand positioning) to be able to let go as the blank tightens up, and then they'll also always stop the lathe, lock headstock and manually tighten up the blank anyhow.

As for turning with fingers over tool rest, a lot of times as you are getting into the *fine* detail cuts (very light shavings on a nearly finished blank, usually) you may find you *need* to extend fingers beyond tool rest a bit for that bit of extra control - but again that's with a "fine finish cut" and often not when roughing out the blank.

As for sanding, It also depends heavily on your technique and practice (and light touch) with sandpaper (and often there's A) holding paper to wood with a fingertip or two, and B) sanding been done at a relatively slow speed - Sanding something at 1500 RPM, you're going to dull your sandpaper to point of uselessness in a matter of seconds, so slow and steady wins the race there. (as any true pro will know from years of experience anyhow0

As for the HUGE CUTS you see them taking, most often they are working with VERY SHARP tools, so they're pro enough to at least be able to get a razor's edge on their gouges, and secondly they'll have the experience on cutting and locating a tenon on their blank that it is gonna hold VERY well (a 2" tenon can hold a 13" blank no problem, IF the wood where tenon is cut is sound & solid, the tenon is properly cut and sized, and the gouge is sharp, there's actually very little stress on the tenon itself.

and Finally, some pros DO usually have a face shield on (you may not see it in the video) but many will remove it for when they need to talk about what they are doing (otherwise they get weird echoey garbled soundtrack, and have to do a voiceover) and most pro turners that are well respected within our community DO have a face shield if not a full helmet at least for their videos. (I quickly lose respect for so-called pros that do videos without that all-important PPE)

As learned relatively quickly in my first year or two watching youtube (long before I got into woodturning, I was in small engine repair, and there's an untold number of complete blithering idiots producing popular, gimmicky youtube videos on small engine repair that do not have the slightest clue what they're talking about!) All you need is a video camera and a youtube account, and you, too can call yourself a professional "whatever", as long as what you say "sounds good" to people who don't know any better.

 

[John K Jordan]

Many things can be dangerous when learning unless you have good instruction. A few I know about personally: woodturning, cave diving, flying aircraft, rock climbing, motorcycles, explosives, handling horses, high voltages, operating big equipment.

(1) Start slowly with a good instructor, learn the basics first from a human. Take classes, attend demos, find a mentor.
(2) Join a club: watch, ask questions, learn. Many clubs will hook you up with a free mentor.
(3) Buy some good books. Read every word, do all the exercises.
I learned much of my woodturning that way and can provide a short list of my favorites. (Consider it would take many, many hours of video to cover the information in one good book.

Many youtube videos are bad, some are stupid, some are downright dangerous. I suggest not learning that way.
(4) If you want videos, seek out or buy DVDs made by respected experts. Some clubs have libraries.
(5) Join the AAW and look through their list of curated videos, examined and vetted for content and safety.

(6) If something doesn’t seem safe to you, don’t do it (regardless of what someone else says or shows.)

BTW, I have never mounted a blank on a screw chuck with the lathe running. I’m never in such a hurry that I can’t stop the machine and mount the blank by hand. That lets me make sure it is screwing on properly and I can control the tightness. (I’ve used wormwood screws but FAR prefer the dedicated Glaser screw chuck - it has many advantages, IMO.)

Using the hands can be perfectly safe and even preferable in some situations, even necessary for some types of turning. The thing to learn is when and what is appropriate.
Safety glasses are appropriate for some types of turning (e.g., turning thin spindles) but a good face shield is appropriate where some could be thrown at your face. As important for health in the long run is a good dust mask or better, a good respirator with P100 particulate filters. Don’t often see that in youtube videos.

JKJ

 

[Paul Durden]

This is all really helpful. I tend to err on the side of caution. Already joined AAW, plus a local chapter and have learned a lot from our mentors

 

[John Whitley]

A key lesson that I thankfully learned early from various mentors in flat woodworking, which I think applies at least as well to woodturning: if you aren’t sure about an operation at the lathe and/or think it’s sketchy or unsafe then you’re probably right, speaking for yourself! Put another way: many operations with power tools can be unsafe if you don’t (yet) understand what makes them safe versus not. This is a very valuable form of self-awareness to develop when turning!

 

[Darryl Fective]

Many things can be dangerous when learning unless you have good instruction. A few I know about personally: woodturning, cave diving, flying aircraft, rock climbing, motorcycles, explosives, handling horses, high voltages, operating big equipment.

(1) Start slowly with a good instructor, learn the basics first from a human. Take classes, attend demos, find a mentor.
(2) Join a club: watch, ask questions, learn. Many clubs will hook you up with a free mentor.
(3) Buy some good books. Read every word, do all the exercises.
I learned much of my woodturning that way and can provide a short list of my favorites. (Consider it would take many, many hours of video to cover the information in one good book.

Many youtube videos are bad, some are stupid, some are downright dangerous. I suggest not learning that way.
(4) If you want videos, seek out or buy DVDs made by respected experts. Some clubs have libraries.
(5) Join the AAW and look through their list of curated videos, examined and vetted for content and safety.

(6) If something doesn’t seem safe to you, don’t do it (regardless of what someone else says or shows.)

BTW, I have never mounted a blank on a screw chuck with the lathe running. I’m never in such a hurry that I can’t stop the machine and mount the blank by hand. That lets me make sure it is screwing on properly and I can control the tightness. (I’ve used wormwood screws but FAR prefer the dedicated Glaser screw chuck - it has many advantages, IMO.)

Using the hands can be perfectly safe and even preferable in some situations, even necessary for some types of turning. The thing to learn is when and what is appropriate.
Safety glasses are appropriate for some types of turning (e.g., turning thin spindles) but a good face shield is appropriate where some could be thrown at your face. As important for health in the long run is a good dust mask or better, a good respirator with P100 particulate filters. Don’t often see that in youtube videos.

JKJ

Hmm, never tried cave diving...

 

[John K Jordan]

Hmm, never tried cave diving...

It’s incredible, but not something to do casually.

For years my friend Carl and I drove from TN to northern Florida every couple of months to dive some of the fresh water caves. The water is crystal clear with temperature in the mid 70s I think, but due to the nature of cave diving we still needed dry suits with extra insulation. The actual dives were short, limited by the air we could carry (or stage spare tanks with multiple prep dives), however some dives were deep and required long decompression stops on return. We used double tanks with very long buddy-breathing hose/regulators in case two divers had to share air in a tight passageway. Mess up back in a cave and you can spend the rest of your life trying to get out…

It’s not an inexpensive hobby and takes specialized training. We both had years of previous experience in both fresh and salt water, lakes, rivers, ice water, diving with manatee, sharks and baracuda, wreck diving, search and recovery, etc. before deciding to take on cave diving. We learned specialized techniques to move, absolute buoyancy control. The instructors taught how to get out alive in the event of various staged disasters - for example in utter darkness with no mask, following a cord we had put in place on the dive into the cave. And were taught sure ways to discourage obviously open-water divers preparing to go into a cave. On some trips we’d mix in a little flying, aerial photography, drove around the state, explored the Everglades, etc.

Good clean fun!

JKJ

 

[Dave Landers]

Some of us beginners learn from YouTUBE, but we see pros do things that are seemingly unsafe. I see it as a real issue until you develop some sense of what is prudent. This is just a few things I’ve seen that seem like big NOs for me. Am I being overly paranoid?

No, you're not. You're just being observant and questioning what you see. That's basically just smart.

1. Starting a bowl blank on a wood worm screw with lathe turning and holding the blank by hand

I rarely use a screw chuck, but this is fine in my book. Slow speed, let go when it's close, and tighten by hand. Would only do it with a (mostly) round blank - corners would be bad. Reason people do it is that it's easier to align and support the wood with 2 hands without trying to spin the wood or hand wheel.
If it makes you nervous, there's no real reason to try it.

2. Turning with fingers hanging over the tool rest. A perfect setup to crush a finger between tool rest and wood

Not with rough blanks or off-axis pieces - yikes.
I will use my fingers to support thin spindles, or the back edge of a thin bowl or platter.

3. Similarly, sanding using the tool rest to brace hand.

I will use the tool rest - moved way back - to support one wrist when sanding thin spindles where a tremor or wobble would break it. But it's unnecessary and sounds dangerous for larger stuff.

4. Taking a huge cut with a bowl gouge on an a rough bowl blank with no tailstock support with a relatively small tenon in the chuck.

I think this is totally experience-based. Large cuts in "cooperative" and wet wood, with a sharp gouge, at the correct presentation, are surprisingly smooth (and fun).
Also, it is surprising how small a tenon really needs to be if it is sized and cut correctly to fit the jaws (and in good wood).
But learning what you can get away with for both the cut and tenon does take experience.
That said, I always rough with tailstock support - but I am using an Irish/Ellsworth-ish ground gouge and the tailstock doesn't get in the way (much). With a 40/40 grind, you usually have to get the tailstock out of the way to make the cut.

5. Turning with no face shield or even safety glasses in sight.

I don't YouTube, but when demonstrating, I will use a face shield when I'm roughing things out and/or there's potential for corners of wood etc to go flying. But it really screws up the microphone and makes it hard to hear me talk. So I will often remove it when turning more predictable stuff. It's my calculated tradeoff for clarity of communication. And I try to remember to comment on my choice (but I probably do sometimes forget). The other factor for me is that the actual turning for the demo (and usually the wood blank) has been carefully chosen to make me successful in what I'm trying to communicate. So it's quite a bit different than grabbing a log out of the yard and seeing what happens. And I have no problem wearing a face shield for the whole demo if the venue/club requires or requests it.

But never without safety glasses.

I could go on and on, but are these folks just lucky or does their experience change the relative danger of this kind of stuff? and beginners trying to imitate without thinking through it.

This is a problem for beginners, as many modern beginners are relying on YouTube for their instruction. But there's nothing to go on other than their number of followers (which has nothing to do with the validity of instruction).

Is why you very often see, on this forum, recommendations to go find an AAW chapter club, and/or find a mentor, and/or take a class.

We demonstrators (and YouTubers probably) sometimes forget to think about our audience - are we demonstrating to an experienced group, or a bunch of beginners, or a mix? And we forget sometimes to comment on things that might be obvious to some - but not all - of our audience. Also, self-awareness is hard (that is, watching yourself demo and looking for bad habits that might communicate the wrong message).

So if you see something that seems questionable - do question it. A good presenter will affirm your thought or at least explain their choice for you.

 

[Dean Center]

How many time have you seen a demonstrator move the tool rest while the wood is spinning? And immediately say, "This is not safe, you should not do it." I bet I've heard and seen it over a hundred times. (And done it maybe twice)

When we get experienced, we do some things that are not entirely safe, and get away with them. Sometimes it's because we are experienced and sometimes it's just luck.

All of the above responses provide wise advice.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, my #1 advice would be to stand out of the line of fire, at ALL times. #2 would be to check your lathe speed before you turn it on. I think most lathes now have "soft" starts, which only gets you so far. A member of our club likes to talk about the first AAW Symposium in Davis, CA and he saw David Ellsworth forget to check his speed and the piece went through a wall.... I have torn pieces off the lathe by trying to take too much off in one pass, more than once. Once, while doing a demo, I went past the center of a bowl I was hollowing out with a scraper and the scraper came around and bit my thumb.... From Will Rogers, some thing like "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from, well, bad judgement."

robo hippy

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

The number of serious injuries in turning requiring a trip to the ER are likely minuscule. But it might take only one to lose an eye or something even more serious.

And this attitude AAW'ers are somehow better than Youtuber's is ridiculous. AAW has any number of videos that would result in fines if OSHA safety standards were applied. How many here have ever run a shop with employees that were subject to unannounced state safety inspections with fines for safety violations?

but we see pros do things that are seemingly unsafe.

That's for sure. Just the smallest things like turning bowls from square blanks. Totally stupid to go from square to round on the lathe because it creates a pinch point problem. Ask a "pro" why they do it, I've been told because sawing it round takes too much time, really??

Try playing "Where's Waldo" next time you watch a turning demo video. You aren't paying attention if you can't find a couple.

 

[hockenbery]

Just the smallest things like turning bowls from square blanks. Totally stupid to go from square to round on the lathe because it creates a pinch point problem. Ask a "pro" why they do it, I've been told because sawing it round takes too much time, really??

not sure what production bowl turners you have talked to. The ones I know bandsaw their blanks round.
And then core bowls out of the round blank. Cuts the gouge time way down.

On a small piece of wood like 3x3 going from square to round is faster






Spindle turners do almost always go from square to round.