Proper use of Laser Guided Hollowers

[ralphjramirez]

I have been trying to find a video on the proper method of using laser guided hollowers. I recently purchased the Monster Articulated Hollower, expect to receive it next week, and in looking at current free videos on YouTube and the Web I could not find any that addressed ever moving the laser pointer to align the cutting tip and the laser 90 degrees to the cutting surface. If this isn't done the accuracy of the laser is lost, it would not be a true reading and you could puncture the bowl. Am I missing something here or are these round carbide cutters eliminating this need?

Any information you might have will be appreciated and if there are any videos you may know of that will clarify the use of these hollowers please let me know, this :mad:will be greatly appreciated.

Regards..........Ralph

 

[ralphjramirez]

Icon error

Sorry, I must have clicked on the sad Icon that is in my message, not intentional..........Ralph

 

[holmqer]

I have only made a few pieces with my DIY laser guided hollowing system, but it seems like you are on the right track.

Depending on where you are cutting the ideal laser angle relative to the cutter can change. You need to consider the curve of the piece, and the location of the cutter. Where you are cutting on the cutter tip will vary based on the angle of the boring bar, the angle of the cutter in the swivel fixture and the curve. Imagine an angle from that spot that is the shortest distance to the outside of the hollow form and that is the angle to put your laser spot from the cutting edge.

A long sweep along the side a hollow form that is taller than wide will not require any adjustment of angle unless you are going super thin, but the transition to the bottom of a shoulder would require some adjustment.

I think once you play around with it, all this written description will become more clear. It is fairly clear what is going on once you have some quality time to fool with it.

You could also make some to scale drawings of a hollow form, set it on a platform at same height as your toolrest, and you can see what is going on as you orient the boring bar relative to the drawing.

 

[Fred Belknap]

I have the Monster hollowing arm with laser and the instructions said to set the laser to touch the cutting edge. I can see it might change with where it is positioned in the HF. In use I position my view so that I am looking directly above the laser dot in relation to the outside of the bowl. With a little practice it comes pretty natural.
Jamison says on his web site to set the laser so the dot is the distance from the cutter that you want the thickness of the wall to be. I don't personally know which way is the best. I have never tried the off set laser.😕

 

[TJ Hamilton]

I use a Jamieson and follow his instructions: off-set the red dot from the cutter by the amount you want in the final thickness of the piece. As the light gets closer to the edge it will elongate. When the light drops off the edge of the piece, ie. shining on the floor or lathe, you are at the desired thickness.

Keep turning after the light is off the piece and you will have a lovely two piece hollow form and several design choices to make.

Oh, and don't tighten the laser holder too tightly. They like to be cuddled in the holder, not crushed.

Enjoy, Tom

 

[Bill Boehme]

I think that the Lyle Jamison video is the best there is. He goes into great detail explaining how to orient both the cutter and the laser to match the curvature of the turning. There is not just one setting, but the orientation of the cutter and laser need to be readjusted several times as the curvature changes.

 

[ralphjramirez]

Articulated Hollowing Systems

Thank you very much for your input. I will have to play with it once I get it next week and do as you say on bowls that are wider than the height and less important on tall ones. I don't do real thin bowls, 1/8" is my limit. I did one when I was younger at 1/16" but I didn't enjoy it, too much stress expecting to blow it at any time.

Thanks again.

Regards..........Ralph

I have only made a few pieces with my DIY laser guided hollowing system, but it seems like you are on the right track.

Depending on where you are cutting the ideal laser angle relative to the cutter can change. You need to consider the curve of the piece, and the location of the cutter. Where you are cutting on the cutter tip will vary based on the angle of the boring bar, the angle of the cutter in the swivel fixture and the curve. Imagine an angle from that spot that is the shortest distance to the outside of the hollow form and that is the angle to put your laser spot from the cutting edge.

A long sweep along the side a hollow form that is taller than wide will not require any adjustment of angle unless you are going super thin, but the transition to the bottom of a shoulder would require some adjustment.

I think once you play around with it, all this written description will become more clear. It is fairly clear what is going on once you have some quality time to fool with it.

You could also make some to scale drawings of a hollow form, set it on a platform at same height as your toolrest, and you can see what is going on as you orient the boring bar relative to the drawing.

 

[ralphjramirez]

I attended a demo by Lyle Jamison years ago using his captured bar system where he sets the gap between the laser light and the cutter as the wall thickness. That is why it is necessary to move the laser light when the angle changes dramatically. What I don't understand is all these new hollowers use round carbide tips that may be held at an angle but are not movable. Not sure if you still need to move the laser. Maybe someone with these type of cutters can comment on that.

Thanks for your comments..........Ralph

I have the Monster hollowing arm with laser and the instructions said to set the laser to touch the cutting edge. I can see it might change with where it is positioned in the HF. In use I position my view so that I am looking directly above the laser dot in relation to the outside of the bowl. With a little practice it comes pretty natural.
Jamison says on his web site to set the laser so the dot is the distance from the cutter that you want the thickness of the wall to be. I don't personally know which way is the best. I have never tried the off set laser.😕

 

[ralphjramirez]

Thanks Tom especially about cuddling the laser in it's holder. I have a habit of always tightening things too much.

Regards...........Ralph

I use a Jamieson and follow his instructions: off-set the red dot from the cutter by the amount you want in the final thickness of the piece. As the light gets closer to the edge it will elongate. When the light drops off the edge of the piece, ie. shining on the floor or lathe, you are at the desired thickness.

Keep turning after the light is off the piece and you will have a lovely two piece hollow form and several design choices to make.

Oh, and don't tighten the laser holder too tightly. They like to be cuddled in the holder, not crushed.

Enjoy, Tom

 

[ralphjramirez]

Homger, I forgot to mention that it was a good idea of making a scale drawing and using that to see how the laser and cutter align as you move along the drawing. Thanks, I will try that.

Regards...........Ralph

I have only made a few pieces with my DIY laser guided hollowing system, but it seems like you are on the right track.

Depending on where you are cutting the ideal laser angle relative to the cutter can change. You need to consider the curve of the piece, and the location of the cutter. Where you are cutting on the cutter tip will vary based on the angle of the boring bar, the angle of the cutter in the swivel fixture and the curve. Imagine an angle from that spot that is the shortest distance to the outside of the hollow form and that is the angle to put your laser spot from the cutting edge.

A long sweep along the side a hollow form that is taller than wide will not require any adjustment of angle unless you are going super thin, but the transition to the bottom of a shoulder would require some adjustment.

I think once you play around with it, all this written description will become more clear. It is fairly clear what is going on once you have some quality time to fool with it.

You could also make some to scale drawings of a hollow form, set it on a platform at same height as your toolrest, and you can see what is going on as you orient the boring bar relative to the drawing.

 

[ralphjramirez]

Thanks Bill. I will check with my Woodturning Club to see if they have a copy of his video. They video tape all demos so perhaps I could get lucky.

Regards..........Ralph

I think that the Lyle Jamison video is the best there is. He goes into great detail explaining how to orient both the cutter and the laser to match the curvature of the turning. There is not just one setting, but the orientation of the cutter and laser need to be readjusted several times as the curvature changes.

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... What I don't understand is all these new hollowers use round carbide tips that may be held at an angle but are not movable. Not sure if you still need to move the laser. Maybe someone with these type of cutters can comment on that.

The shape of the cutter has almost nothing to do with orienting the laser, but just as with HSS cutters there are various shapes for the tool shanks of carbide tipped tools to reach around corners where a straight cutter can't be used.

Some (but not all) carbide cutters are small disks that can be rotated when one part of the carbide gets dull. If you think about it, all hollowing scrapers are round -- at least the part that is actually making contact with the wood is curved. And it is only a very small segment of the tip that is doing the cutting especially when reaching final thickness. Whether the part of the scraper doing the cutting looks like a segment of a ¼" diameter circle or is a small part of a ½" diameter carbide disk doesn't make a great deal of difference except for probably a small difference in surface smoothness.

So how is the laser oriented? It is oriented on a line from the center of the cutting tip that is perpendicular to a line tangent to the surface. As you can see in the following illustration, the orientation of the laser with respect to the cutting tip changes considerably during the hollowing process from top to bottom.

Thanks Bill. I will check with my Woodturning Club to see if they have a copy of his video. They video tape all demos so perhaps I could get lucky.

Regards..........Ralph

If not, there is several places you can buy it. The cost is $29 which is in line with most woodturning instructional DVDs.

 

[john lucas]

I haven't done a video yet but my method for setting it is pretty simple. I got a quarter size rare earth magnet and painted one side white. I drew a line and market of increments like on a ruler. I put 1/8" increments figuring I'd rarely need 1/6" and could put a mark there if needed.
Anyway I just put the magnet on my cutter and align the zero point with the tip. Then I align the ruler portion so it's perpendicular to the wall of the vessel I'm working on. Adjust the laser so the dot alignes with the distance and angle and I'm ready to go.
There is a better system and I wish I could remember who makes it. They were selling it at the Ohio symposium. It allows you to mount the laser in the device. Once you set the distance it stays this distance from the tip but rotates around center axis of the tip. Maybe someone will remember. I made a sketch and will build one some day since it looked like a good metal project and I'm trying to learn machinist skills. I'm not in a hurry because my magnet works so well.

 

[hockenbery]

What I don't understand is all these new hollowers use round carbide tips that may be held at an angle but are not movable. Not sure if you still need to move the laser. Maybe someone with these type of cutters can comment on that.

Thanks for your comments..........Ralph

the laser needs to be set from the where the cutting is taking place on the round cutter. Angled cutters are not the best choice for laser as the measurements are best done with the cutter cutting at center. I have an angled cutter that can be cutting + or - an 1/8 inch from center. Also angled cutters are best used in one direction or you can get a catch.

If you have a straight bar with a round cutter with 12 o'clock being straight in front , 9 O'clock to the left and you are hollowing a spherical form you would cut at about 7-8 o'clock at the rim gradually moving around to 12 o'clock at the bottom. The laser has to be continually reset to be opposite where you are cutting. The same thing happens with a 3/16 rounded bit but the difference from center to side is only 3/16 of an inch while the difference on a 1" diameter disc is 1/2 an inch.

I set my pointer right on the line for a thickness. The center on my laser is on the thickness I want. When my laser is real long on the side ( 1/2 the beam on the wood 1/2 off) I have my thickness. the beam is about an 1/8 th inch in diameter.
On some forms I mark a line on the wood where the outside bottom curve will be and work my bottom to that line with the laser pointing to the line.

Hope that helps
Al

 

[ralphjramirez]

Thank you very much Bill. That illustration and your fine description of the cutting tip makes more sense to me now. I appreciate the time you took to not only answer my question but to provide the illustration.

Best Regards..............Ralph

The shape of the cutter has almost nothing to do with orienting the laser, but just as with HSS cutters there are various shapes for the tool shanks of carbide tipped tools to reach around corners where a straight cutter can't be used.

Some (but not all) carbide cutters are small disks that can be rotated when one part of the carbide gets dull. If you think about it, all hollowing scrapers are round -- at least the part that is actually making contact with the wood is curved. And it is only a very small segment of the tip that is doing the cutting especially when reaching final thickness. Whether the part of the scraper doing the cutting looks like a segment of a ¼" diameter circle or is a small part of a ½" diameter carbide disk doesn't make a great deal of difference except for probably a small difference in surface smoothness.

So how is the laser oriented? It is oriented on a line from the center of the cutting tip that is perpendicular to a line tangent to the surface. As you can see in the following illustration, the orientation of the laser with respect to the cutting tip changes considerably during the hollowing process from top to bottom.


View attachment 5164




If not, there is several places you can buy it. The cost is $29 which is in line with most woodturning instructional DVDs.

 

[ralphjramirez]

Thanks Al. Sorry but I missed your post until now. Your explanation and Bill's is a great help. My hollower arrives today so will definitely pay attention to the cutter angle.

Best Regards.......Ralph

the laser needs to be set from the where the cutting is taking place on the round cutter. Angled cutters are not the best choice for laser as the measurements are best done with the cutter cutting at center. I have an angled cutter that can be cutting + or - an 1/8 inch from center. Also angled cutters are best used in one direction or you can get a catch.

If you have a straight bar with a round cutter with 12 o'clock being straight in front , 9 O'clock to the left and you are hollowing a spherical form you would cut at about 7-8 o'clock at the rim gradually moving around to 12 o'clock at the bottom. The laser has to be continually reset to be opposite where you are cutting. The same thing happens with a 3/16 rounded bit but the difference from center to side is only 3/16 of an inch while the difference on a 1" diameter disc is 1/2 an inch.

I set my pointer right on the line for a thickness. The center on my laser is on the thickness I want. When my laser is real long on the side ( 1/2 the beam on the wood 1/2 off) I have my thickness. the beam is about an 1/8 th inch in diameter.
On some forms I mark a line on the wood where the outside bottom curve will be and work my bottom to that line with the laser pointing to the line.

Hope that helps
Al

 

[ralphjramirez]

Hi John, sorry but I also missed your post, another senior moment. That is an interesting method. I will check at the San Jose Symposium and if not I may try your method.

Thanks again..........Ralph

I haven't done a video yet but my method for setting it is pretty simple. I got a quarter size rare earth magnet and painted one side white. I drew a line and market of increments like on a ruler. I put 1/8" increments figuring I'd rarely need 1/6" and could put a mark there if needed.
Anyway I just put the magnet on my cutter and align the zero point with the tip. Then I align the ruler portion so it's perpendicular to the wall of the vessel I'm working on. Adjust the laser so the dot alignes with the distance and angle and I'm ready to go.
There is a better system and I wish I could remember who makes it. They were selling it at the Ohio symposium. It allows you to mount the laser in the device. Once you set the distance it stays this distance from the tip but rotates around center axis of the tip. Maybe someone will remember. I made a sketch and will build one some day since it looked like a good metal project and I'm trying to learn machinist skills. I'm not in a hurry because my magnet works so well.

 

[ralphjramirez]

Gallery Photos

Hey Bill, you are quite a Photographer. Checked out your Gallery Photos and you have some stunning images. 🙂My favorite is the one in your Alaska album titled "Glacier". Stunning photo.

Regards............Ralph

The shape of the cutter has almost nothing to do with orienting the laser, but just as with HSS cutters there are various shapes for the tool shanks of carbide tipped tools to reach around corners where a straight cutter can't be used.

Some (but not all) carbide cutters are small disks that can be rotated when one part of the carbide gets dull. If you think about it, all hollowing scrapers are round -- at least the part that is actually making contact with the wood is curved. And it is only a very small segment of the tip that is doing the cutting especially when reaching final thickness. Whether the part of the scraper doing the cutting looks like a segment of a ¼" diameter circle or is a small part of a ½" diameter carbide disk doesn't make a great deal of difference except for probably a small difference in surface smoothness.

So how is the laser oriented? It is oriented on a line from the center of the cutting tip that is perpendicular to a line tangent to the surface. As you can see in the following illustration, the orientation of the laser with respect to the cutting tip changes considerably during the hollowing process from top to bottom.


View attachment 5164




If not, there is several places you can buy it. The cost is $29 which is in line with most woodturning instructional DVDs.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hey Bill, you are quite a Photographer. Checked out your Gallery Photos and you have some stunning images. 🙂My favorite is the one in your Alaska album titled "Glacier". Stunning photo.

Regards............Ralph

Thanks for the compliment, Ralph.

 

[ralphjramirez]

Articulated Hollowing System

🙂 Thank you to everyone that has responded, your help has been very helpful. I have now turned 3 vessels using the Monster and I Love it. It is well made, moves smoothly and allows the use of my own as well their hollowing tools. I am still having problems with the laser/cutting edge alignment. I know what has to be done but am still having difficulty. I turn rather difficult vessels for using a laser setup as I have high long shoulders and a wide oval which means moving the laser multiple times. I am going to create some type of guide, such as John uses then use the laser to turn a vessel with a very large opening then perhaps I can figure out the proper setting and mark the template appropriately. I am thinking of using the earth magnet with a template attached to it with markings that I would need to use. More turning to do but have other non-vessel bowls to finish before I do another vessel. If my Club doesn't have the Lyle Jamieson video I may have to break down and buy it.

Again, Thank you All.

Best Wishes................Ralph
🙂

 

[hockenbery]

The main thing with the laser is to know where you are cutting on the edge of the cutter.
I put my bar on the tool rest out side the form in what I think is the same orientation it will have inside
This is easy with he Jameson handle. I have not used the monster but assume you can match the aignment.
I can easily see where to set the pointer. Also once inside I know roughly where I last had an even wall an begin there.
Here I pay special attention to the pointer if it isn't showing what I expect, I check and reset and tighten everything.
If everything isn't just right or anything is just a bit loose it shows up before or just after you start cutting.

A successful hollow begins with the outside shape.
The hollowing is just to let it dry and give it a good feel weight wise.
After a while setting the point becomes somewhat automatic in that you now where you are cutting.

Have fun,
Al

 

[ralphjramirez]

Hi Al,

Thanks for the additional information. I will try as you suggest and place my bar outside the form and match the cutter/laser orientation. The Monster does allow setting the bar as you suggest. Perhaps I am too impatient as what you suggest seems so basic yet this Dummy still is having difficulty. I will have to be more patient.

Again, Thank You very Much.

Best Wishes.............Ralph

The main thing with the laser is to know where you are cutting on the edge of the cutter.
I put my bar on the tool rest out side the form in what I think is the same orientation it will have inside
This is easy with he Jameson handle. I have not used the monster but assume you can match the aignment.
I can easily see where to set the pointer. Also once inside I know roughly where I last had an even wall an begin there.
Here I pay special attention to the pointer if it isn't showing what I expect, I check and reset and tighten everything.
If everything isn't just right or anything is just a bit loose it shows up before or just after you start cutting.

A successful hollow begins with the outside shape.
The hollowing is just to let it dry and give it a good feel weight wise.
After a while setting the point becomes somewhat automatic in that you now where you are cutting.

Have fun,
Al