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Photography question......
- Thread starter Odie
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Reflection and refraction of light would be my guess...camera sensors are probably more sensitive to the light than our eyes. I am guessing that you don't see that in person.
My guess is that the foot is a cove shaped and focuses the ambient light hitting onto the table sort of like a concave shaving mirror.
Dennis
Dennis
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Yea they are probably right. Not knowing where your lights are I assume a lower light is being reflected off the bottom. One trick I used to recommend to artists was to bring me the work before you put the final glossy finish is on. They look pretty much the same in the photo but it takes 1/10th the amount of time to photograph
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Odie, no doubt you will see the same thing as your camera sees, so this is something to watch for when you light the piece. It appears to me that I see the reflection of either an on-camera flash or a light that is very close to the camera position. If you use using the flash, turn it off. If it is a light located in line with the camera then move it somewhere else to make the shadows look better. A glossy turning can play havoc with the lighting like John said.
Talcum Powder
For really shiny things (like sterling silver), you can reduce the havoc with a light dusting of talcum powder.
Popular with catalog photographers, I've heard.
For really shiny things (like sterling silver), you can reduce the havoc with a light dusting of talcum powder.
Popular with catalog photographers, I've heard.
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Krylon makes a Dulling Spray for product photographers that supposedly removes the glare from shiny objects without harming the product. Any volunteers?
Last edited:
AlanZ
Resident Techno Geek
Dulling spray was never a solution for anything I ever needed to photograph. I found it hazy.
Wow......dulling spray!....who'd have thunk it ? No thank you!
For bowls that have an exceptional natural gloss to them, I think I'd rather accentuate it, than conceal it.
Thanks for all the input here. It makes sense to me that a light in the front and low may be what's causing that light ring. Now that you've brought this to my attention, I think that's probably the cause. As I indicated in my first post, I'm not particularly concerned about this reflected light.....was just wondering why and how it got there.
Still playing around with a light tent, GE Reveal brand bulbs, and my photo editing software. I'm certainly not a photographic expert, by all means! With practice and a natural urge to "tinker", I think my photography is getting better.....although far from the perfection some of you with more photographic honed skills are used to getting......but, good enough to be a fairly acceptable representation of my turned bowls. 😎
I suspect these two low lights near the front are what's causing that light ring. I use them to focus more light underneath the bowl near the foot. It has been an area where it's been a problem with not enough light with the bowl's exterior surface facing down near the foot. This is especially true with trying to get a good profile shot.....
ko
For bowls that have an exceptional natural gloss to them, I think I'd rather accentuate it, than conceal it.
Thanks for all the input here. It makes sense to me that a light in the front and low may be what's causing that light ring. Now that you've brought this to my attention, I think that's probably the cause. As I indicated in my first post, I'm not particularly concerned about this reflected light.....was just wondering why and how it got there.
Still playing around with a light tent, GE Reveal brand bulbs, and my photo editing software. I'm certainly not a photographic expert, by all means! With practice and a natural urge to "tinker", I think my photography is getting better.....although far from the perfection some of you with more photographic honed skills are used to getting......but, good enough to be a fairly acceptable representation of my turned bowls. 😎
I suspect these two low lights near the front are what's causing that light ring. I use them to focus more light underneath the bowl near the foot. It has been an area where it's been a problem with not enough light with the bowl's exterior surface facing down near the foot. This is especially true with trying to get a good profile shot.....
ko
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Just some rambling thoughts ...
I've personally never cared for light tents -- not saying that they aren't good, just that I would rather do things differently. They seem to make the lighting options too constrained and my opinion is that they are mainly useful for high key photography of small items like watches, jewelry, pens, etc.
Besides the diffuse light through the tent, I think that the white bed sheet might be a big part of getting good lighting because it is essentially like a source of light and glossy surfaces like the underside of the bowl will reflect that light. The reason that is bad is that it it is like adding a layer of white haze to the dark underside of the bowl -- or another way of thinking about it is that the white reflection lowers contrast on the underside of the bowl.
My suggestion for a background is to use smooth gray photo background paper (either medium gray or dark gray) or a graduated background which is printed on a sheet of vinyl (actually PVC plastic). A couple brands for the graduated background are Flotone and Varitone. On the other hand, if you really do want to do high key photography, get a couple books on the subject. It can be used to get good images, but it is also somewhat challenging.
This photographing woodturnings business all becomes a balancing act with some objectives being in opposition to each other. Flat uniform lighting from all directions on one hand lights all parts of the turning equally well, but on the other hand the image will look dull and two-dimensional. Shadows give an object depth and shape as well as giving it more contrast. But, we don't want the shadows to obscure details completely. Lighting is probably 99.9% of being a good photographer. And the creative aspect of good lighting is as much of an art as any other creative design process. And, obviously, there is no one "right" way to do it.
My aim when photographing turnings is to reveal the creative aspect of the turning with a tease that reveals something about the wood. I see another part of the balancing act of photographing turnings as the difference between a mug shot which is meant to document details vs. a studio portrait which is meant to create a pleasing real like looking image that accentuates the best aspects of the subject. Put me strongly on the side of preferring a "portrait" of the turning where the creation is the star and the wood is a supporting actor. We've all seen the woodturning photographs where the camera is pointed straight down at a bowl ... and what we see is a flat disk, perhaps it might be a cutting board, a mug shot of the wood for certain, who knows the exact shape because the shot doesn't offer much if any hint about the turning itself -- it is a great way to show off the wood grain if that is all that matters.
I've personally never cared for light tents -- not saying that they aren't good, just that I would rather do things differently. They seem to make the lighting options too constrained and my opinion is that they are mainly useful for high key photography of small items like watches, jewelry, pens, etc.
Besides the diffuse light through the tent, I think that the white bed sheet might be a big part of getting good lighting because it is essentially like a source of light and glossy surfaces like the underside of the bowl will reflect that light. The reason that is bad is that it it is like adding a layer of white haze to the dark underside of the bowl -- or another way of thinking about it is that the white reflection lowers contrast on the underside of the bowl.
My suggestion for a background is to use smooth gray photo background paper (either medium gray or dark gray) or a graduated background which is printed on a sheet of vinyl (actually PVC plastic). A couple brands for the graduated background are Flotone and Varitone. On the other hand, if you really do want to do high key photography, get a couple books on the subject. It can be used to get good images, but it is also somewhat challenging.
This photographing woodturnings business all becomes a balancing act with some objectives being in opposition to each other. Flat uniform lighting from all directions on one hand lights all parts of the turning equally well, but on the other hand the image will look dull and two-dimensional. Shadows give an object depth and shape as well as giving it more contrast. But, we don't want the shadows to obscure details completely. Lighting is probably 99.9% of being a good photographer. And the creative aspect of good lighting is as much of an art as any other creative design process. And, obviously, there is no one "right" way to do it.
My aim when photographing turnings is to reveal the creative aspect of the turning with a tease that reveals something about the wood. I see another part of the balancing act of photographing turnings as the difference between a mug shot which is meant to document details vs. a studio portrait which is meant to create a pleasing real like looking image that accentuates the best aspects of the subject. Put me strongly on the side of preferring a "portrait" of the turning where the creation is the star and the wood is a supporting actor. We've all seen the woodturning photographs where the camera is pointed straight down at a bowl ... and what we see is a flat disk, perhaps it might be a cutting board, a mug shot of the wood for certain, who knows the exact shape because the shot doesn't offer much if any hint about the turning itself -- it is a great way to show off the wood grain if that is all that matters.
I was just on another website where a fellow made a light set-up with clamp-on lights from the hardware store, compact fluorescent bulbs and a piece of an old t-shirt over the light to diffuse the glare. The CFL won't generate enough heat to burn the cloth. His results looked good. Hope to try it myself.
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john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Well your problem is too many lights. When I use a light tent which is rare I usually only need one light Two at the most. Place one light up high and to the side so it lights the top panel and most of the side panel. Then if really necessary place a second less bright light on the other side. I'd the front of the bowl is too dark either move it deeper in the box or add a reflector out front to bounce light back in.
Your main problem with the ring at the foot is the two lights on the side. They are too bright. For a quick test aim them toward the back to reduce the amount of light it ting the tent and see if that helps.
Most of the quick photos I shoot of my work now are do e with no light tent. One light with a 12"
Reflector and white nylon diffuser over it. The. I uses a 2 foot square rewrite reflector on the other side to fill in the shadows.
I move the main light to shape the piece by watching the highlights and shadows. When I get this right I add the reflector and move it around to properly bounce the fill light back in to reduce the shadow intensity and to help light the front.
It's really important to be able to move the lights. Very seldom will one light position be perfect for each piece. Light tents became popular for people to shoot jewelry with point and shoot cameras to sell the stuff on the web using point and shoot cameras. They do work pretty well for turnings if you unused the 2 light method I mentioned above. They seldom work well with 2 lights mounted on both sides on short light stands. The lighting is simply too unnatural. It can work with those same two lights placed further away so they light the top a d sides. Won't be a great phot but may be acceptable
What you did that heps us solve the problem is to back off and photograph the whole lighting scenario so we can see the lights
I'm withAlan I found dulling spray totally useless. Better to use your light shape and position and other techniques to take care of the harsh reflections. Ever heard of a photographer using talcum powder
Your main problem with the ring at the foot is the two lights on the side. They are too bright. For a quick test aim them toward the back to reduce the amount of light it ting the tent and see if that helps.
Most of the quick photos I shoot of my work now are do e with no light tent. One light with a 12"
Reflector and white nylon diffuser over it. The. I uses a 2 foot square rewrite reflector on the other side to fill in the shadows.
I move the main light to shape the piece by watching the highlights and shadows. When I get this right I add the reflector and move it around to properly bounce the fill light back in to reduce the shadow intensity and to help light the front.
It's really important to be able to move the lights. Very seldom will one light position be perfect for each piece. Light tents became popular for people to shoot jewelry with point and shoot cameras to sell the stuff on the web using point and shoot cameras. They do work pretty well for turnings if you unused the 2 light method I mentioned above. They seldom work well with 2 lights mounted on both sides on short light stands. The lighting is simply too unnatural. It can work with those same two lights placed further away so they light the top a d sides. Won't be a great phot but may be acceptable
What you did that heps us solve the problem is to back off and photograph the whole lighting scenario so we can see the lights
I'm withAlan I found dulling spray totally useless. Better to use your light shape and position and other techniques to take care of the harsh reflections. Ever heard of a photographer using talcum powder
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Why don't indented paragraphs show up that way. I always give 5 spaces after starting a new paragraph so it's easier to read and know when a new paragraph starts. On several forums it eliminates those when you post the thread.
Anyway I was typing on the phone this morning which is extremely slow and prone to errors and spell check "uncorrections". If I leave a space between paragraphs sometimes it keeps the indent and some places don't. Interesting.
One thing I did learn while first trying to use the Krylon Noglare was that if I cut a hole in a piece of paper to match the shape of the refelection giving me problems I could spray just that part (and you had to be exact) it would tone down the reflection. I didn't use it except in extreme cases because it was just too much hassle and most of the time I could either move the light or even the change the light size and reduce the reflection to a more tolerable level. I often used small pieces of wire screen attached to a black rod between the light source and the piece to break up the reflection. I could tone it down a full f stop with 3 layers of screen. Saved a lot of time especially if you had the piece looking really good and just had that one hot spot that was too hot. I could tone it down so it was still there but not bothersome.
Learned a million little tricks like that over the years but by far the most important is being able to move the lights up down and sideways really effortlessly. Positioning the lights is the easiest and best way to start your lighting setups to get better photographs. At home I use a homemade boom arm on top of a light stand for the main light. The fill light or reflector is usually easier to position so I just use another light stand or a Bogen articulated Arm with a clamp attached.
See no indents when I post it even though they are there now as I edit the post.
Anyway I was typing on the phone this morning which is extremely slow and prone to errors and spell check "uncorrections". If I leave a space between paragraphs sometimes it keeps the indent and some places don't. Interesting.
One thing I did learn while first trying to use the Krylon Noglare was that if I cut a hole in a piece of paper to match the shape of the refelection giving me problems I could spray just that part (and you had to be exact) it would tone down the reflection. I didn't use it except in extreme cases because it was just too much hassle and most of the time I could either move the light or even the change the light size and reduce the reflection to a more tolerable level. I often used small pieces of wire screen attached to a black rod between the light source and the piece to break up the reflection. I could tone it down a full f stop with 3 layers of screen. Saved a lot of time especially if you had the piece looking really good and just had that one hot spot that was too hot. I could tone it down so it was still there but not bothersome.
Learned a million little tricks like that over the years but by far the most important is being able to move the lights up down and sideways really effortlessly. Positioning the lights is the easiest and best way to start your lighting setups to get better photographs. At home I use a homemade boom arm on top of a light stand for the main light. The fill light or reflector is usually easier to position so I just use another light stand or a Bogen articulated Arm with a clamp attached.
See no indents when I post it even though they are there now as I edit the post.
Bill, the t-shirts are only yellow under the short sleeves. 😛
John, thanks for the tips as I will be taking pictures of my custom fishing rods for my website (under construction). Let me know when you might be in the SE TN area.
John, thanks for the tips as I will be taking pictures of my custom fishing rods for my website (under construction). Let me know when you might be in the SE TN area.
I worked for 32 years as a commercial photographer for one of the leading corporations in the country, and never heard of a photographer using talcum powder. It would stand out, and be so noticeable. There are so many better options. Dulling spray, I used quite regularly, but this was on products, and I had to be really careful to keep it from showing, if the shot was up close. Can't say that I would ever use dulling spray, on a woodturning, as I would always try to solve it with correct lighting. Keep in mind that while a professional photographer won't hesitate to use dulling spray, it is almost always because they have multiple objects, and one or more of them, reacts badly to the correct lighting of the others. In photographing your woodturnings, you are almost always are dealing with a single object. Something to keep in mind when lighting, is the solution isn't always to use a light tent, or big white reflector. Think of how your turnings look if you were to put them outside in the early morning, or late evening light. That is the exact opposite of a light tent, or big white reflector.
Odie, not sure if it was done on your photo, but certain photo manipulations, if not done correctly, can cause that halo effect near a sharp edge in a photograph. If you're sure it wasn't there when shooting the picture, then I would look at what is happening in the processing of the digital image.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
Musky I used Talcum powder a lot. But only at the Gym to prevent rash. 🙂
What kind of material is the bowl sitting on? I think it's more from the bowl making a slight indentation on the fabric and causing the light to hit the fabric differently. I really don't think a reflection off the bowl is causing it.
Good morning! Musky.....not sure it wasn't there originally. Didn't notice it until after the photo was processed. Thanks for your insightful information. These guys on this forum are used to my crazy ideas on photography! My main concern is to get something acceptable that can be used for online sales.....I think I do. Of course anything can be improved.......😀
John.......It's a folded double layer of cloth I purchased in a church second hand store. There is a bit of cushion to it, so your theory could very well be what's causing the ring.
This ring isn't anything I can't live with......so, I'm not very concerned about it. Matter of fact, it may be a plus, because it accentuates the edge!
Thanks
ko
Almost 100% certain that ring is caused by the OBA's in the fabric, and fluorescing in the reflected light.
This is a known phenomenon in professional photography. Change to a no-seam or seamless quality paper background paper and it goes away. Depending on your light sources, metamerism can occur - not visible to the naked eye, but the camera sensor picks it up.
For info on this issue: http://http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_brightener
You could always go with a more hi-tek background such as this:
http://http://tinyurl.com/qcsfusr
Try formica -it comes in many different colors - makes a great background, as it is spectral color matched for quality control.
Be sure natural light or fluorescent light leaking in doesn't contaminate your primary light source, Also the color temp of all your lights must match. Failure in any of these areas results in mongrel light (mixed color temperatures).
This is a known phenomenon in professional photography. Change to a no-seam or seamless quality paper background paper and it goes away. Depending on your light sources, metamerism can occur - not visible to the naked eye, but the camera sensor picks it up.
For info on this issue: http://http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_brightener
You could always go with a more hi-tek background such as this:
http://http://tinyurl.com/qcsfusr
Try formica -it comes in many different colors - makes a great background, as it is spectral color matched for quality control.
Be sure natural light or fluorescent light leaking in doesn't contaminate your primary light source, Also the color temp of all your lights must match. Failure in any of these areas results in mongrel light (mixed color temperatures).