Paying demonstrators

[whitefence]

How much is customary to pay demonstrators for a 1-1 1/2 hour demo at a monthly club meeting. We are now paying $125

Thanks
Stan

 

[Keith Burns]

If it a club member demonstrating we don't pay anything although we have been biscussing giving gift certificates. If they are from another club that is fairly close, we have done a couple that we pay $50 for a half day and $100 for a full day plus expenses. If it is a big time professional we pay their asking price.

 

[Captain Eddie]

We've paid a few up to $200 to travel in from Florida to New Orleans. A couple were also selling their goods and that offset their expenses. We don't pay members and have never been asked to. We pay professionals their going rate and provide housing when needed.

 

[Hugh]

We have been having a problem getting club members to do demos. So we started to offer $50 for a demo, trying to get people to come forward. Small club with only about 35 - 40 members. We have only been doing this for a couple of months - so I can not tell you if it is going to help.
Hugh

 

[Brian Hahn]

In-house demonstrators get paid???

Boy, have I missed the boat. They haven't even offered to reimburse me for my out-of-pocket expenses.

 

[waltben]

There's kind of a give and take about local demonstrators. We've several professionals and some will give limited demos for no fee. We've been thinking about having a mini-symposium and paying a nominal fee for full ones from a few. Not having expenses paid can hurt even having members do one.

 

[Steve Worcester]

paying will get you better demonstrators.

We pay club members and non both. If a club member demos at another club, they pay him, so why not pay that same club member to demo at his own club? It costs money and time to get a demo together, drive to the venue and demo. I have been payed as little as $50 for a club demo ($100 seems to be the norm here) and as much as $500 for a day and half plus travel and meals (that was flying to Rochester, where I was the paid talent. Some big names prices have gotten way out of hand. I have seen numbers for big names up in the $750/day lately plus expenses.
Usually a 1-3 hour (club type) demo pays different than half, full day and multi-day. One of the issues I see are clubs trying to use demos as an income generator instead of allowing people to take good quality classes at reasonable prices. After all, the proliferation of the knowledge is why the clubs are around (Aren't they?)

Symposiums are a whole different ballgame.

 

[George Guadiane]

Boy, have I missed the boat. They haven't even offered to reimburse me for my out-of-pocket expenses.

I have done demonstrations for my club, at the meetings and at our woodworker's showcase... No fee. I don't do any other volunteer work so I just consider that my time donation.
I will, in fact, be doing the "OATS" (Off Axis Triangle Segment) turning and the bandsaw segmented turning demonstration at our Totally Turning Symposium without charging (for other than the printed materials).
I did do a demo at a nearby club, and they paid a fee that covered my expenses. I suppose, when you get "a name" and/or demonstrate in the BIG venues, you get paid (that's next - I hope).
I feel good about doing the occasional "freebie" for the club. I get a great deal out of them (BUT... I WOULD take the money if the offered any). :cool2:

 

[Brian Hahn]

I feel good about doing the occasional "freebie" for the club. I get a great deal out of them (BUT... I WOULD take the money if they offered any). :cool2:

That's the way I feel about it too. And I'll be doing another free demo this fall.

 

[Bill Grumbine]

Speaking as a demonstrator...

I have done both, paid and unpaid. Most of the unpaid demos have been for my own club, although that has been changing. I belong to three local clubs, two turning and one general woodworking. The general woodworking and one turning club pay anyone and everyone who they ask to demonstrate. The other club used to ask for freebies, but recently started to pay club members as well as others.

From my perspective, anyone who does a demonstration takes time to prepare for that demo, and that needs to be recognized. Even if that person has a full time occupation that pays way more than that of woodturner, there is still time spent and expense incurred. I also think, along with Steve, that if there is money involved, then there will be better demonstrations. Part of that is the dread on the part of the demonstrator of putting on a dud and then taking money for it. If they are a volunteer, it is too easy to rationalize away a poor demo by saying the club got what it paid for.

I also think that local club members need to be paid because there are almost never enough people in a local club to do all that needs to be done. With any volunteer organization, there is the core that works hard, and then the peripheral element that wants to be entertained. Paying demonstrators is one way to get people involved, and to muzzle the demands of those who do nothing but show up at meetings once in a while and who come to think that they have a goldmine in some of their club members.

For clubs not my own, I have a fee structure that is competitive with a lot of those who do demos, and it is all business from that end. I have figured out what it takes me to do a demo, and how much it costs me to get from my place to that place, wherever it might be. I have encountered a few club representatives who seem to think that anyone who comes to their club should do it for the love of turning and the glamor of being up in front of everyone in their club, but for the vast majority of clubs that has not been the case. In fact, I have been taken aside by a number of people during my demos to be told I don't charge enough!

Going along with this, I think it is incumbent on the demonstrator to provide a demo that is both informative and entertaining. It is no fun at all to watch someone who is not adequately prepared, either by not knowing the subject at hand, or forgetting half of what he or she needs to do the demo. It is also no fun listening to someone drone on for hours without actually doing something, whether it be making chips fly, burning something, carving something, or at the least letting the people get up to see what they are doing close up. I could go on and on about that - but I won't. Poor demonstrators make me look better!

Bill

 

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

Just because you know someone who happens to be a golf pro doesn’t mean you should expect free golf lessons. As Bill stated, doing a good demo requires a lot of pre-planning, and often considerable travel time. If you are a hobbyist, doing this stuff for fun, that’s one thing. If you are attempting to “make a living†doing this stuff, then time is money and time taken away from the studio/shop is money from the demonstrator’s pocket.

 

[Jake Debski]

This is a very timely thread and judging from the responses many chapters are facing similar questions.

In our area there are four small to medium sized turning clubs. None of these organizations can boast of a membership of over eighty. The total corps of willing demonstrators, from all the clubs combined, numbers less than twenty or twenty-five. In our case the same group of turners have been called upon to demo at the different clubs to the extent that there is too much being asked of these individuals. In essence we've gone to the same well too often. Getting the funds to pay demonstrators for their effort presents yet another problem. I'll leave the fund raising ideas for another time. But I believe turners from outside the organization should be compensated and once you start that, then in fairness, should also compensate fellow members. New ideas are the life blood of these organizations, and it ain't always free.

 

[George Guadiane]

Just because you know someone who happens to be a golf pro doesn’t mean you should expect free golf lessons. As Bill stated, doing a good demo requires a lot of pre-planning, and often considerable travel time. If you are a hobbyist, doing this stuff for fun, that’s one thing. If you are attempting to “make a living†doing this stuff, then time is money and time taken away from the studio/shop is money from the demonstrator’s pocket.

As usual, well said.
Once you get to Malcolm's level, you should expect to be compensated.
Even those of us trying to make a living out of it still have the option to give it away. If, like me, you are in the early stages of doing demos, exposure is exposure, AND, it goes on the resume. Besides, viewers can't complain too much about what they get from a demonstration when they didn't pay for it. Also, you can ask your friends to "give it to you straight," so that you can work out the rough spots in your presentation(s).
It would be bad to claim more than you have, or to go into a paid environment without KNOWING (as best as you can) that your presentation is properly done.
(my two cents)

 

[George Guadiane]

This is a very timely thread and judging from the responses many chapters are facing similar questions.

In our area there are four small to medium sized turning clubs. None of these organizations can boast of a membership of over eighty. The total corps of willing demonstrators, from all the clubs combined, numbers less than twenty or twenty-five. In our case the same group of turners have been called upon to demo at the different clubs to the extent that there is too much being asked of these individuals. In essence we've gone to the same well too often. Getting the funds to pay demonstrators for their effort presents yet another problem. I'll leave the fund raising ideas for another time. But I believe turners from outside the organization should be compensated and once you start that, then in fairness, should also compensate fellow members. New ideas are the life blood of these organizations, and it ain't always free.

So far, with my home club, I have asked to be reimbursed for paper and ink. The rest is part of my day to day stuff. I will continue like that until I AM making my living at turning and it interferes with my work or until I feel "used" (and I can't imagine that happening).
In any event, if you feel that you would like to be paid and no one is offering, when you are first approached, ASK. You can still do the demo for free, but you have put your club on notice that you would like to be paid in the future.

 

[Don O. Jr.]

Paid Demos

I agree with what has been said so far. I have done, and will continue to do, demos for clubs I belong to for no charge as I feel it is a way to give back some of what has so freely been given to me. I also do demos for my woodworking group at our local show. This year for the first time and much to my surprise (and much credit to the demo organizer) I was given a nice gift as a token of appreciation. Very thoughtful and much appreciated, but unsolicited. I have also done demos for our local symposium and did not even ask to be reimbursed for printed handouts. Again to my surprise I was given a check to help cover expenses, also unsolicited.

I guess my point is I will do demos voluntarily at no charge if I choose. If someone thinks they would like to show some appreciation in a tangible way, who am I to disappoint them. Fortunately I have a regular job which allows me this option. If I was doing it for a living (I wouldn't survive!) then it would be different. I usually have a great time doing the demos especially with my home clubs. They heckle me, I heckle back, we all laugh. It's fun. And if by chance someone learns something, all the better. As a matter of fact, I'm doing one tomorrow night and can't wait. Most people fear public speaking-my problem is knowing when to shut up! ;-))

 

[George Guadiane]

I have reconsidered (a little)

Just because you know someone who happens to be a golf pro doesn’t mean you should expect free golf lessons. As Bill stated, doing a good demo requires a lot of pre-planning, and often considerable travel time. If you are a hobbyist, doing this stuff for fun, that’s one thing. If you are attempting to “make a living†doing this stuff, then time is money and time taken away from the studio/shop is money from the demonstrator’s pocket.

You know, this whole topic has really been on my mind... I really like the idea of getting paid, even by my home club, BUT...
If the demonstrators should get paid, even if it's just a token, how much should the president, and the rest of his/her cabinet get paid... More than that, how about the people who don't even get any prestige out of the work they do for the club, the grunts who set up and break down the meetings, for instance.
Our club is REALLY active, we have put on a turning symposium every year for the past six years. The people who chair the different elements ALL YEAR LONG, those who do the setup, breakdown, floor walking, problem solving and emergency filling in, get little if anything, not even enough recognition. I was thinking about that after the last one, I was a vendor, so I couldn't really help on the floor. I donated a little wood from my inventory, and got thanked... and I wondered THEN if the people doing the REAL work were appreciated (probably not as much as they should). They give up their time, shouldn't THEY get paid if the local showoff (me) does?
I guess, I said all that to try to say this:
If we are a club, we should all do things for the club, like good teammates. I'm OK with collecting for materials costs, but I think, under the above described circumstances, since I am going to show up at the meetings anyway, I can continue to donate the time I do to my club, I really don't do anything else but pay dues and show up.

 

[George Guadiane]

Speaking as a demonstrator...
From my perspective, anyone who does a demonstration takes time to prepare for that demo, and that needs to be recognized. Even if that person has a full time occupation that pays way more than that of woodturner, there is still time spent and expense incurred. I also think, along with Steve, that if there is money involved, then there will be better demonstrations. Part of that is the dread on the part of the demonstrator of putting on a dud and then taking money for it. If they are a volunteer, it is too easy to rationalize away a poor demo by saying the club got what it paid for.

You know, I had this epiphany about the topic and have a bit of a new perspective: I can't imagine that ANYONE would stand in front of their peers and do a crappy job because they weren't getting paid, any more than I think that they would do a better job because they were getting a few dollars (under these circumstances). When I was asked, I DID work really hard to do well (and I knew there was no money in it). I didn't want to look like an idiot. Paid or not, I don't think too many of us would "rationalize away" our failures, or that our REAL friends would let us, if we tried.

I also think that local club members need to be paid because there are almost never enough people in a local club to do all that needs to be done. With any volunteer organization, there is the core that works hard, and then the peripheral element that wants to be entertained. Paying demonstrators is one way to get people involved, and to muzzle the demands of those who do nothing but show up at meetings once in a while and who come to think that they have a goldmine in some of their club members.

I will grant you that there are those "gold diggers," who skim off what they can and leave the work to others, without a second thought, but those who DO the work would keep on doing it, even if the gold diggers started pitching in.

Going along with this, I think it is incumbent on the demonstrator to provide a demo that is both informative and entertaining. It is no fun at all to watch someone who is not adequately prepared, either by not knowing the subject at hand, or forgetting half of what he or she needs to do the demo. It is also no fun listening to someone drone on for hours without actually doing something, whether it be making chips fly, burning something, carving something, or at the least letting the people get up to see what they are doing close up. I could go on and on about that - but I won't. Poor demonstrators make me look better!

Bill

I edited out some of the stuff that I didn't feel a need to comment on, hope you don't mind. Not because you were droning on, but because I am...
I agree that an engaging well prepared presentation is of utmost importance... Not sure I agree with that last part, I think good and bad stands (pretty much) on it's own.

 

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

If the demonstrators should get paid, even if it's just a token, how much should the president, and the rest of his/her cabinet get paid... More than that, how about the people who don't even get any prestige out of the work they do for the club, the grunts who set up and break down the meetings, for instance.). They give up their time, shouldn't THEY get paid if the local showoff (me) does?

George, for what it's worth, I collect a respectable fee when I present away from home. As a club member, I've never requested a fee, feeling that it was my duty and honor to give something back to the club. I have been paid "gas money" from my local club, which in my case is almost a two drive

 

[Bill Grumbine]

You know, I had this epiphany about the topic and have a bit of a new perspective: I can't imagine that ANYONE would stand in front of their peers and do a crappy job because they weren't getting paid...

I don't have to imagine it. I've seen it with my own two eyes. I've also seen a number of people who were getting paid put on abysmal demonstrations - some poorly prepared, some obviously not knowing their subject, and in a couple of cases, depending on their established name to carry them through despite one or both of the above. There are a lot of good demonstrators out there, and there are a lot of poor ones too. On the one hand, being an accomplished turner or artist does not necessarily make one a good demonstrator. On the other, I have seen excellent demos by people who are very new to turning, but have taken the time to learn their subject and already have experience in presenting.

I earn a living doing this stuff. Sometimes that is awkward, because people seem to think that I (or others like me) will not lift a finger without money changing hands. That's not true. There are a lot of things I do and have done in the past to give a helping hand, and I know other pros who do the same thing. Then there are those who are extremely sanctimonious in their demeanor because they don't take any money (or none is offered to them anyway!). But there is a limited pool of people who can produce a demonstration, as opposed to a much larger pool of people who are capable of serving in some sort of capacity as an officer or board member or what have you.

The point I am trying to make is that it is up to the person who is doing the demo to decide whether or not to be compensated for their time, and that the local club can help that along by at least offering. I do not feel guilty in taking a demo fee from my own club. I have done enough volunteer work in many different capacities that it is not a struggle for me. But that is just me. I speak for no one else.

Bill

 

[George Guadiane]

George, for what it's worth, I collect a respectable fee when I present away from home. As a club member, I've never requested a fee, feeling that it was my duty and honor to give something back to the club. I have been paid "gas money" from my local club, which in my case is almost a two drive

First,
Let me say that I meant you no disrespect by what I said, I really meant none (to anyone). I was speaking of myself, and in generalities, otherwise.
What you just said is about where I got to, not that I'm in your league by any stretch of the imagination... I want to demonstrate the ideas that my club has asked me to, to a broader audience, I think it's interesting and unusual enough to talk about and help other people to try.
I recently had a REALLY cool thing happen: I spent the day at a high grade high school wood shop and talked about some of my "stuff." I went home and months later (this is the recent part), the wood shop teacher let me know that one of his students had won a third place HS award, using an idea he got from me. I really felt honored, almost like I shared in the award. I am guessing that you get a similar pleasure when one of us shows a piece you inspired.
In any event, I wasn't calling you out, I have nothing but respect for you and your work. I saw you in Albany last year and learned a great deal!

 

[George Guadiane]

The point I am trying to make is that it is up to the person who is doing the demo to decide whether or not to be compensated for their time, and that the local club can help that along by at least offering. I do not feel guilty in taking a demo fee from my own club. I have done enough volunteer work in many different capacities that it is not a struggle for me. But that is just me. I speak for no one else.

Bill

It may be just a word, but guilt never entered my thoughts, other than feeling uncomfortable about not saying thank you enough to the guys who do the work that makes the rest of a meeting/ demo/symposium possible. I was just trying to point out that the guys in the front of the room are not the only ones doing the work, and that they too have to invest time, etc.
Not to feel sanctimonious, but I wouldn't mind getting to turn down a fee myself, you're totally correct, it is good to feel valued.

 

[Jake Debski]

.................................................................................
In any event, if you feel that you would like to be paid and no one is offering, when you are first approached, ASK. You can still do the demo for free, but you have put your club on notice that you would like to be paid in the future.

George, I feel it is the chapters responsibility to at least offer these folks some form of compensation. It doesn't have to be a direct cash transaction. The demonstrator is then in a position to accept or refuse what is offered.

 

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

First,
Let me say that I meant you no disrespect by what I said, I really meant none (to anyone).

George, I didn't mean to sound defensive. I never felt any disrespect. It's been interesting to read the different viewpoints.

 

[Andy Hoyt]

Okay Malcolm. Here's another perspective.

I've done one demo (for free) and you couldn't pay me to do it again.

Matter of fact, some of the guys said that they'd pay me if I'd put that in writing!