Oneway Versa mount system

[olaf Vogel]

Over time, I found that I use faceplates more and more. But for my old lathe, I have a very limited amount, unless I get into custom solutions.

One possibility is the Oneway Versa Mount.
https://oneway.ca/products-category/holding/Versa-Mount

Does anyone have experience with this?

1 - I like the idea of a cheap / simple ring that would screw onto the blank
2 - the possibility of running the lathe backwards
3 - easily swapping blanks back on, by leaving the faceplate on as the blank dries out.

I would have to mount this up
https://oneway.ca/products-category...Versa-Mount Universal Coupling (non-threaded)
using a standard adapter.

Just curious. Thanks

 

[Mike Johnson]

That does look like a viable system, with a set of rings and several adapters you would
be able to leave the rings attached to your projects and move between machines easily.
Now I have a project for my metal lathe. 🙂

 

[Steve Worcester]

depending on the size of faceplates you use, it may be cheaper to just buy more faceplates. I think I have about 15 of them at this point.

 

[olaf Vogel]

Now I have a project for my metal lathe. 🙂

Color me jealous. 🙂
I assume your metal lathe is (or is compatible) with a similar system. If you do try this out, please let me know what you think.

depending on the size of faceplates you use, it may be cheaper to just buy more faceplates. I think I have about 15 of them at this point.

Having many faceplates is the goal. Buying more is not possible when your spindle it 1.5" x 6 TPI.

 

[Odie]

depending on the size of faceplates you use, it may be cheaper to just buy more faceplates. I think I have about 15 of them at this point.

Hi Steve.......I gather from the wording Olaf used, that it's probable that his thread size isn't available for adapting the versa-mount to his lathe........I'm sure he'll come back and clarify that point for us.

I'm with you, Steve. The best possible solution is to have multiple faceplates. I'm doing a quick mental count, and I believe I have thirteen faceplates.

There is one distinct advantage to having multiple faceplates, over something like the Oneway versa-mount, or any of the other products that involve quick detachable rings for mounting work. That is, once you introduce an additional mechanical mating method between the spindle thread of the lathe, and the work-piece itself, there is an added element of possible misalignment, once the ring is removed from the mount, and reinstalled. This won't amount to much if we're discussing the difference between roughing and final turning.......but, it might make a critical difference between remounts during the process of final turning. I guess it all depends on how pricise the turner is attempting to be. It would probably make more of a difference to a turner like me, than other turners who depend less on precision mating surfaces on their work-piece itself. A turner who specializes in boxes might find this more critical than one who pursues basic simple shapes.

ko

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Buying more is not possible when your spindle it 1.5" x 6 TPI.

Olaf, This is probably a long shot and likely something you've done already, but... Have you talked with a local machinist about making a run of faceplates?

My local machinist astounds me at how inexpensively he can make things, mostly because he is so efficient. It would be worth getting several quotes.

 

[Odie]

Color me jealous. 🙂
I assume your metal lathe is (or is compatible) with a similar system. If you do try this out, please let me know what you think.



Having many faceplates is the goal. Buying more is not possible when your spindle it 1.5" x 6 TPI.

OK, Olaf......I see I spoke just a few minutes too late, and you clarified my question about your spindle thread size while I was typing. One thing you might also consider, is to contact a someone with a metal cutting lathe, and have a bunch of faceplates rethreaded to your 1.5" x 6 tpi thread size. Since it's so big, I'll bet a standard 1 1/4" x 8 tpi could be bored out and rethreaded to your size. If you get multiple faceplates done at once, it might be a lot easier (and cheaper) for whoever does this for you.......just a thought! 😀

ko

 

[Odie]

Olaf, This is probably a long shot and likely something you've done already, but... Have you talked with a local machinist about making a run of faceplates?

My local machinist astounds me at how inexpensively he can make things, mostly because he is so efficient. It would be worth getting several quotes.

Wow, Zach.......I see I spoke a minute too late once again! Great minds think alike, I guess! 😀

ko

 

[olaf Vogel]

Olaf, This is probably a long shot and likely something you've done already, but... Have you talked with a local machinist about making a run of faceplates?

My local machinist astounds me at how inexpensively he can make things, mostly because he is so efficient. It would be worth getting several quotes.

Indirectly.
I can buy grade 8 nuts (1.5 x 6 TPI) for a decent price and also 1/4" to 1/2" steel disks of any size, these are cheap on ebay.
Then would need them welded together at 90d with decent precision, reasonably centered. My blacksmith buddy can do that.
Screw holes could be drilled afterwards.

I had not considered buying faceplates and machining to size.

Assuming the faceplate stay on until the piece is done, the precision may not have to be very high.
I'm speculating thats how Moulthroup does it. Seems like the faceplate is on during finishing and polishing.
Not sure how he does the bottom. Reverse or vacuum chuck it?

But I'd love to hear from someone who has used this system, since I'd just have to buy the adapter and then various plates.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I have a number of turned metal tenons with mounting holes on the outer rim.
I can quickly mount these in a bowl chuck and leave them mounted to the piece.
I have turned these from a number of materials and they all work well depending on
the size and weight of the billet. I turned a few from aluminum, brass and stainless steel.
I have also turned a few of these from polymer materials just to see how they worked.

 

[Bill Boehme]

OK, Olaf......I see I spoke just a few minutes too late, and you clarified my question about your spindle thread size while I was typing. One thing you might also consider, is to contact a someone with a metal cutting lathe, and have a bunch of faceplates rethreaded to your 1.5" x 6 tpi thread size. Since it's so big, I'll bet a standard 1 1/4" x 8 tpi could be bored out and rethreaded to your size. If you get multiple faceplates done at once, it might be a lot easier (and cheaper) for whoever does this for you.......just a thought! 😀

ko

Odie, the Oneway Versa Mount system uses taper lock adapters that are the same as used in their chucks and they offer a huge selection of thread sizes as well as custom cutting a special thread if they don't after it as standard. Some years ago the fee was $25 when I had a special taper lock adapter made.

 

[Odie]

Odie, the Oneway Versa Mount system uses taper lock adapters that are the same as used in their chucks and they offer a huge selection of thread sizes as well as custom cutting a special thread if they don't after it as standard. Some years ago the fee was $25 when I had a special taper lock adapter made.

Thanks, Bill....... Say, that's right! 🙂

Now that you mention it, I do recall Oneway offering this service. If Olaf is still monitoring this thread, I think Bill hit on the most economical, easiest, and quickest way for you to have multiple faceplates without all the hassles associated with having multiple standard faceplates threaded for your spindle......or contracting someone to do the welding and machining you'd need otherwise. I mentioned the one single drawback that could be a consideration, and that is the introduction of another possible misalignment due to the mating of the rings to the Versa-mount. Only you can make that assessment, as applied to the kind of work you wish to pursue.

BTW: I have three Oneway Stronghold chucks that have their adaptors for 1 1/4"x8tpi, and they are pretty darn close to perfect alignment to the chuck body......within a couple thousandths, IIRC. If you have a dial indicator, this can be easily checked, as well as the alignment of the rings for the Versa-mount.

 

[Bill Boehme]

And, here it is: https://oneway.ca/products-category/adaptors/Stronghold-Adaptors/1-1-2-6-RH-Stronghold

 

[olaf Vogel]

And, here it is: https://oneway.ca/products-category/adaptors/Stronghold-Adaptors/1-1-2-6-RH-Stronghold

Yup - I do use that right now, with my two Stronghold chucks - which I love BTW.
Oneway is almost in my backyard.

So I'd need one of those and the adapter which is about $110, Then the faceplates/rings for $30 - 35 each. So a set of ten will cost me about $500 with taxes in.

Overall a decent solution, that makes a lot of sense.
I'd just want to see/hear/read a review from someone who has used them, before committing the funds. 🙂

The DYI faceplate options comes in about half that - but only because someone will do the welding for free.
($4.50 for each nut, ~$10 per steel disc)

 

[Bill Boehme]

The DIY faceplates may not be such a great deal. In order to repeatably run true the nut needs one face machined flat and perpendicular to the axis of the hole so that it will properly register against the spindle shoulder. It will also be necessary to counterbore the nut on the side that faces the spindle shoulder or else the nut will jam against the unthreaded portion next to the shoulder (some lathes have a recess there for set screws. Never depend on a threaded connection for accurate alignment. You also need to check the width of the nut to make sure that it is wide enough that the nut will actually register with the spindle shoulder and not the nose of the spindle. Welding a disk to the nut means that it won't run true with the machined face of the nut unless you turn it true after welding. All of this may not matter if you are screwing the homemade faceplate to a rough blank and planning on not removing it until the piece is completely done. They also are safe only for small and medium size blanks. I would be concerned that the bottom of a bowl might crack during drying if the faceplate is left screwed to the bottom. One final thought: is that chuck and faceplate threads are much more precise and higher quality than the typical threads on a nut.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Olaf a couple of things to keep in mind, leaving the ring on the wood as it is drying is a bad idea, even with your endgrain turnings, the shape will change and shrink, and something has got to give here, with side grain the problem would be even worse.

With using the nuts and welding them on the plates, don’t forget that most lathes have a shoulder and unthreaded part behind the threaded part, B in the picture here, it is where a fitted pieces onto the lathe should fit over with close tolerances, and then agains the shoulder C in the picture, your nut is very probably not long enough to have this machined out and still have enough thread left over.




Just screwing the faceplate on is no option IMO as you will get a few more problems cropping up with doing that.

A typical cut back in a faceplate.


I have made a couple of faceplates, but as I use a male taper on them I don’t have to deal with the outside spindle fit.



Withe the two small faceplates, (large washer welded onto a nut 1”X 8TPI) I made for my Jet mini lathe, I use a machined spacer to get around the spindle problems.

 

[Bill Boehme]

BTW, I use faceplates for very large heavy pieces and for deep hollowing.of large heavy pieces, but for me chucks are the best solution. While there's nothing's wrong with using faceplates, I think the three benefits you listed may not be all that you hope to achieve, especially the third benefit of leaving the ring on the piece as it dries. And the expected cost saving also doesn't seem plausible to me.

Leo, great detailed and well illustrated explanation.

 

[olaf Vogel]

You also need to check the width of the nut to make sure that it is wide enough that the nut will actually register with the spindle shoulder and not the nose of the spindle. Welding a disk to the nut means that it won't run true with the machined face of the nut unless you turn it true after welding. All of this may not matter if you are screwing the homemade faceplate to a rough blank and planning on not removing it until the piece is completely done.

Thanks Bill, these are good points.
The nut/axle width did occur to me, I can get nuts wide enough for a proper seat.
I may still pursue the DIY path, but need to think about it.

Precision is a relative thing on a 130 year old lathe.
Lets just say some tolerances are....not that tight. 🙂

Over the years, I've had parts machined and modified to improve accuracy and performance. In few months I'll likely have the spindle journals trimmed up to ensure they are centred and flat. But that also involves repouring the babbitt bearings (which I've never done before). So for obvious reasons, its taken a while to get around to that. These are challenges with older machines. However, I have no idea when this was last done, if ever.

Leo, your point about shrinkage while drying is IMO insurmountable, especially with larger faceplates. I think you are right, they need to come off.
I was trying to read too much into the Moulthroup process. So I now believe the faceplates come off while drying, and are remounted for a second turning and finishing. Bill, you're right in that a one shot deal wont work.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Olaf Richard Raffan showed a good way to be able to remount a faceplate to keep it at its original position, and this was especially meant to be used with sidegrain wood.

As wood does not get shorter (well 1/10 of 1%) but does get thinner as it dries (around 8% give or take) placing two screws in the top and bottom of the faceplate lined up with the grain.

These two holes can be used again to remount the faceplate, after the wood has dried, and the other holes can then have the screws installed in the narrower wood.

The Moultthroup process has problems coming to hound them, as these turnings (some in high class museums that report bubbling of the Moulthtroups secret finish application)

 

[Odie]

placing two screws in the top and bottom of the faceplate lined up with the grain.

Clarification needed here, Leo.......When you say "top and bottom" are you referring to the faceplate as it's mounted on the spindle, or ?

 

[olaf Vogel]

Olaf Richard Raffan showed a good way to be able to remount a faceplate to keep it at its original position, and this was especially meant to be used with sidegrain wood.

As wood does not get shorter (well 1/10 of 1%) but does get thinner as it dries (around 8% give or take) placing two screws in the top and bottom of the faceplate lined up with the grain.

These two holes can be used again to remount the faceplate, after the wood has dried, and the other holes can then have the screws installed in the narrower wood.

The Moultthroup process has problems coming to hound them, as these turnings (some in high class museums that report bubbling of the Moulthtroups secret finish application)

I have read a few of his books but missed that. Thanks for mentioning.

Odie, there's a great diagram on p30
https://books.google.ca/books?id=JwjVI7Ojto8C&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=richard+raffan+faceplate&source=bl&ots=_6zHX1InHk&sig=HG1eznzjfuuqWi4uNOB0HakgYrU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3182I5trQAhWI8YMKHQmqD8AQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=richard raffan faceplate&f=false

In regards to the Moulthrop finish, I did read an article (by the Smithsonian, I think) that analyzed the issue in huge detail. They seemed to blame it on soaking in PEG.

I briefly played with PEG and hated the stuff. Lots of work and expense for a waxy coating that very little sticks to. Admittedly didn't spend much effort trying to figure it out.

(And you are pre-empting my next post. )

Btw, I saw you are in Ontario, so I had to look up Rainy River. you are literally the farthest point away, while still staying in the province. According to google maps, it's an 18 hrs drive!

Thanks for the feedback, I'd love to drop by for a beer, but it might be a while...
Olaf

 

[Odie]

Odie, there's a great diagram on p30
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Jw...#v=onepage&q=richard raffan faceplate&f=false

OK, thanks, Olaf.........I was a bit confused there. (The diagram is on page 29) I now have a much better understanding of what you were attempting to explain.......

ko

 

[olaf Vogel]

View attachment 21389

Thanks for this excellent explanation. Since my set up is quite unusual, I thought I'd send along a few pics.

(I had to take the headstock apart yesterday to fit a new belt, so it as a good opportunity. Changing the belt is a bit of a pain, but only take about 30 min and it lasted 5 years.

This was originally driven by a flat belt off the ceiling, from a line shaft. But was long ago converted to v-belts. When I bought it, the RPMs were too high, so made my own pulleys from baltic birch. The large wheel on the left is just a handwheel so I can manually turn the piece.



Babbitt bearings



Drip oilers for the babbitt bearings, with the thrust bearing on the left.


Thrust bearing mount. It slides on and the large bolt on the end adjusts the tolerance.


So the spindle dimensions are 1.5" x 6 TPI.
However, where most have a morse taper thread in the middle, this actually has an internal thread of 3/4".



That takes an adapter which brings the thread back out to 1" (with a very standard TPI, but I've forgotten which)



It came like this when I bought it. This lathe has gone through so many mods over the years that I have no idea whats original. A few months after I bought it, I was still scouring Kijiji and came across and identical head & tailstock for $100. I bought it as spare parts since its perfectly interchangeable.

It also has the same internal thread so the adapter fits. Either this was a common solution at the time, so somebody modified both machines.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Clarification needed here, Leo.......When you say "top and bottom" are you referring to the faceplate as it's mounted on the spindle, or ?

Sorry to be not more clear in my posting OD, the top and bottom isn’t a very good way of describing this, as it could be at any angle, as long as the screws are opposite to each other.
I was thinking here of mounting a bowl blank and having two screws in the faceplate like shown here, more clearly shown here in a picture by RR.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Olaf, where I also would have to take my headstock apart to replace a V belt, with tapered roller bearings and oil rings that is quite a job, I have changed the regular V-belt to a link belt.

As there is a jackshaft, I had the link belt only on the spindle to the jack shaft, while using a regular belt from the motor to the jack shaft, well after wearing away 3 regular V-belts and the link belt still going strong.

I have now a link belt on the motor to the jackshaft as well, a bit more expensive to start out with, but outlasting several regular V-belts, it is well worth the initial higher price, not to mention that I don’t have to take the lathe apart.

Babbitt bearings IF kept oiled will last as long or longer than ball bearings, even at high speeds, I have had a little bit of experience with high speed babbitt bearings on fleshing machines in an old tannery here in Canada, also did a couple of line-shaft bearings when still in the Netherlands, all these were easier to do than yours as these where loose housings that we could take off and then place a short shaft of the same size as the machines shaft, pouring the babbitt in as the housing sat sideways with the shaft centered in it, and two thin shims right up against the shaft to make for easy separation of the two halves, very little scraping had to be done this way and a couple of extra shims could be used at pouring time to make for easier adjusting later as things wore down.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Clarification needed here, Leo.......When you say "top and bottom" are you referring to the faceplate as it's mounted on the spindle, or ?

I see that Leo, has already answered this. Here is a another picture showing shrinkage from a pitch chart that I had made. In retrospect, TOP and BOTTOM weren't the best words to use, but they seemed handy at the time (but if the picture were turned on its side or upside down things aren't so clear).

 

[Owen Lowe]

Babbitt bearings IF kept oiled will last as long or longer than ball bearings, even at high speeds...

Leo, of course, you know you’re absolutely right. Folks don’t realize that their vehicle's internal combustion engine uses babbitt bearing for most of the rotating components. As I recall, even high-revving (10,000rpm+) Indy engines use them. The key IS the oil. The component doesn’t contact the bearing surface except at rest; immediately upon startup, a cushion of oil separates the component from the bearing surface. (That’s why oil viscosity, pressure ratings, and the like are so important.) Too, I believe the rotational friction is much less on an oil-cushioned babbitt bearing than a ball bearing.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I have read a few of his books but missed that. Thanks for mentioning.

Odie, there's a great diagram on p30
https://books.google.ca/books?id=JwjVI7Ojto8C&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=richard+raffan+faceplate&source=bl&ots=_6zHX1InHk&sig=HG1eznzjfuuqWi4uNOB0HakgYrU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3182I5trQAhWI8YMKHQmqD8AQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=richard raffan faceplate&f=false

In regards to the Moulthrop finish, I did read an article (by the Smithsonian, I think) that analyzed the issue in huge detail. They seemed to blame it on soaking in PEG.

I briefly played with PEG and hated the stuff. Lots of work and expense for a waxy coating that very little sticks to. Admittedly didn't spend much effort trying to figure it out.

(And you are pre-empting my next post. )

Btw, I saw you are in Ontario, so I had to look up Rainy River. you are literally the farthest point away, while still staying in the province. According to google maps, it's an 18 hrs drive!

Thanks for the feedback, I'd love to drop by for a beer, but it might be a while...
Olaf

Olaf do drop in if you are ever in this corner of the world, I lived for 40 years in London Ontario, but we moved closer to one of our sons (have 2, one in Kanata) over here.
This is fisherman’s paradise, with more lakes than dry land, but barely any hardwood, also hunting is good if you are into that, I have done some of that in an other life.

PEG, I tried that once and still have all of the rest of the stuff in a bottle somewhere, I learned enough with the use of it on one piece.

Oh you do pretty good if you can make that in 18 hrs, 1700K to London or Ottawa/Kanate
We have made the trek many times 🙂)

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo, of course, you know you’re absolutely right. Folks don’t realize that their vehicle's internal combustion engine uses babbitt bearing for most of the rotating components. As I recall, even high-revving (10,000rpm+) Indy engines use them. The key IS the oil. The component doesn’t contact the bearing surface except at rest; immediately upon startup, a cushion of oil separates the component from the bearing surface. (That’s why oil viscosity, pressure ratings, and the like are so important.) Too, I believe the rotational friction is much less on an oil-cushioned babbitt bearing than a ball bearing.

Yes Owen I remember discovering that when I was helping my older brother pulling the bearing caps from an engine to add some shims under the scales to improve the oil pressure and fit of the bearings on the crankshaft, ha, must be 60 years ago or better, not that long after WWII when everything left over after that was to be rebuild, used and kept going to rebuild our Netherlands country, we did it but kids like I and other had to do with a lot less than before or after, but we also learned much from having to do all this.