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Old Tools

F

Frank Kobilsek

Joined
Nov 30, 2005
Messages
286
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Location
Mendota IL
Gentlemen,
There is an auction in my home town Saturday. An extensive home woodworking shop is part of the auction. One item of interest on the sale bill are 'Henry Taylor woodturning tools'. The owner is in his mid 90's and just moved to the retirement village. I am told in the 60's & 70's he was the go to guy in the area for custom turning, but he did a wide range of woodworking. How can I tell the difference between HSS and carbon steel on sight? I know people collect old carbon steel tools but that not my interest. Did they mark HSS tools like they do now back then?

I have to be careful at this auction as I don't want to blow my budget for the Symposium before I even leave town.

Frank

PS: There is also several 'hayracks' of walnut, maple, cherry and butternut. I was at another auction a few weeks ago and saw about 150 bd ft of rough walnut go for $16. I got more walnut than I need now but some adding some cherry to the collection would be great.
 
Henry Taylor Tools

Hello there,

I just phoned Henry Taylor for you and got an answer...

The old CS tools all had yellowish wood handles. Barry, the owner of Henry Taylor, said other than that there's no real way of telling the difference unless you have the "nose" 🙂

Hope this helps

Andy
 
Buy the carbon. First time you use them, you'll wonder what the hoopla is all about with HSS. Of course, use them on dry wood rotating fast and pressing hard and that's another matter.

Carbon conntinues to make the final passes here. Just seem to be able to get a better edge on them. Feed the grit to the HSS and keep the carbon in reserve for their special task.
 
final pases

you emply that carbon tools make a better final cut and you save them for that, would one also use say the orginal tool rest that may have a few rough spots on it for roughing out, and save the good tool rest for the final cuts????????? 😱 😱
 
My rest stays good. Twenty plus years on the old lathe, and I think I filed it once. But I put the tool firmly on the rest and hold it there before I cut. Keeps things from getting dinged up. Always has puzzled me why people complain about bashed rests. I guess they know some stuff I don't about cuts that start with the tool off the rest.

Yep, save the best for last.
 
Frank,

You probably know this already - If it's not marked, the only way I know to tell, is by the brightness of the sparks coming off the grinder. Of course, at an auction they may not let you grind it before you buy it. 😀 I would think that carbon would have more rust/patina under similar conditions, but I think that would be a pretty subjective measure. My $0.02, although it's probably not even worth that.
 
Frank,

I suspect that what you'll be looking at are high-carbon tools. Great for carving but, unless you're an "old tools" maven, I'd save the tool buy for Loo-a-vul.

Now, not meaning to start an argument with Michael, but I recently had occassion to explore this sharpenability issue with a metallurgist, Aaron Gesicki, who is also a turner, after several exchanges on the WOW site. He informed me that it is technically true that carbon steel will take a finer edge than some of the "higher" alloys and the powdered steels because of the differences in the metal's structure, however, he was quick to point out that for turners the distinction is completely meaningless because the difference will only start to appear AFTER you PASS the edge refinement of SCALPELS. Simply put, if your grinder has a 100 grit wheel, it will put a 100 grit edge on whatever alloy that wheel touches. Thus, sharpening different alloys, carbon, HSS, M-4, ASP 2060 on the same grind wheel with give you the same cutting edge. The only difference will be the durability of the ground edge.

I then asked another fellow, a machinist who works with the different alloys all the time, why so many people swear that carbon steels come off the grinder as sharper. He said it may be 2 reasons. First, people tend to be more gentle when grinding carbon tools, and the more gentle pressure against the grit may slightly reduce the depth of the scratches giving a slightly keener edge. Second, he pointed out that softer carbon steel forms more of a wire edge when ground on a wheel, and the edge of the "wire" is sharper than the actual ground edge. When the tool is then used for a cut, the wire edge wears off with the first cut and the edge then seems dull by comparison. He also said that if you sharpen each alloy in the same way, you'll get the same cutting edge, but said to do a light slip hone to remove the wire edge and refine the "real" one a bit with a micro-bevel. I have taken to following that advice with very nice results.

m
 
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Mark - does that mean I'm going to have to start honing my tools in addition to sharpening them on the grinder? Heck, on these pecan roughouts, the tool edge is only lasting about 10 minutes anyhow!
 
Jeff Jilg said:
Mark - does that mean I'm going to have to start honing my tools in addition to sharpening them on the grinder? Heck, on these pecan roughouts, the tool edge is only lasting about 10 minutes anyhow!
Click to expand...

Jeff,

Ellsworth is very definite in his preference for non-honed edges; I think Jordan prefers them, and I know that Lacer and Raffan are "honers." Lacer demonstrates fine honing of his skews on the dvd sent to members where he's really putting a microbevel on the skew edge with a fine diamond honing card. While I do likewise on the skew, I hone a gouge with just one or two light swipes on the inside of the flute with a hard Arkansas slip stone held at a very slight angle to the edge to remove the tiny wire edge.

Try an lightly honed edge on your pecan and see if it make a difference. Durability is more a function of the alloy than the grind, but you might consider a finer grit wheel. I use a 60 grit AO wheel for shaping, but a 120 wheel for sharpening. While an 80 grit wheel will give a good sharp tool, the 120 is noticeably finer and cuts wood more cleanly, I think.

m
 
Mark I've read the same thing about carbon steel tools so I did my own unscientific test. I have an old Sears carbon tool and a Henry Taylor HSS tool that are very similar in shape so i sharpened both on my 100 grit wheel and cut with them. Then I sharpened both various hones to get very nearly a razor edge. I couldn't tell any difference other than edge holding.
I've done the same thing many times with my 2 diamond parting tools. One is a sears and one a Sorby. Every once in a while I think the sears cuts better but it may be in my head because most of the time there isn't any difference. I should mention that I use these tools to do other tasks than parting such as turning beads or starting tapers. In that case I use them like you would a skew.
I do hone my skew but the other tools come directly off the 100 grit wheel. I'm changing to an 80 or 60 when these wear out. Takes to long to reshape an edge. I do hone my gouge when making the final cuts on problem wood.
 
John,

Unscientifical or other, how the same grind wheel with a specific grit could ever put a finer edge on one steel as opposed to another alloy is beyond me, but I suspect the wire edge thing has been what is giving people the result that then fuels their view. I was always trained to hone off the "false" [wire] edge.

m
 
Same grit can't do better by its scratch pattern, that's for sure. I use a 220 grit diamond cone for burrs, or "wire edge" removal. Then I freshen the carbon edge with an India gouge stone, which cuts easier on carbon than the alloy. The resulting edge is finer because of the extra stage, the extra stage easier because of the softness of the steel. Worth having those carbon honeys at the ready, and easy to do.

Any one care to detail the "saw" route about fresh from the wheel versus honing?
 
edge quality

From everything I've ever read/been told carbon tools do provide a sharper edge from the grinder, but the edge is less durable because the steel is softer. I'm not too sure about the claim that all the HSS tool steels result in an identical edge quality though. As I understand it, the quality of the edge is a factor of the steel quality - grinding technique and stone used aside, of course. If the steel is of inferior quality then the resulting edge, when viewed under a microscope, might appear to be rough - imagine a bandsaw blade for an exaggerated idea of what I mean. This of course will transfer to the wood upon application of the tool. I think this is where the "honers" have always believed their justification lies...the honing levels off the troughs and peaks.

Speaking to Barry at HT this afternoon we spoke about the new Henry Taylor range, KRYO. These tools are sintered just as the high quality tool steels are, but are then cryogenicaly frozen at -195deg for three days. This, apparently, causes a molecular change in the tool steel, which results in less troughed and peaked make-up to the steel, a more homogenous state, if I can call it that. The consequence of this is a far sharper, truer, edge, and as the steel is a far superior quailty anyway, it lasts much longer.

The grit of your grinder stone will, of course, make a difference to the finished edge, no matter what the steel, but better steel on a 60 grit stone will still be better than poorer steel on the same stone.

I have recently tried pink stones from Peter Child here in the UK. They do make a great difference; cooler, quicker, self re-surfacing (for a while), and produce a fantastic edge...but if you turn all day every day they wear very quickly!


I'm not sure how clear I've made all that, but I hope it makes sense.

I'll be receiving some of the new tools shortly to test and I'll let you know what I think.

Andy
 
Mark - I have Alan Lacer's hone. Same as you, I have found it to be great for the skew, and the inside of the bowl gouge. But I don't use it for the bowl gouge sharpening. The wheel seems to do fine for that.

Andy - I have heard the same explanation from others about cryo-steel. But I am skeptical. It seems to me the main molecular pattern and crystallization patterns will get developed when the steel is poured/forged then cools. I do not understand how the the molecules or crystals can get realigned from their solid state at room temperature. In any event, the proof of the pudding for this type of situation is a side by side scientific study of the final product. And that would be best delivered by an objective lab. It sounds like a neat theory, but I'm not convinced.

For cryo-steel I thought about trying it in our freezer. But I got a frozen look from SWMBO and that was the end of that. 🙂
 
tools

You people can "stone and hone", but if I am working on a bid job I will "turn to earn". I guess if it means saving turning time by an extra second on the 80 grit bench grinder and back at it, it's my choice.
 
I began to see a big difference in sharpness and durability of my Crown PM tools and my M2 HSS tools when I purchased a Norton 3X grinding wheel. It takes less time to grind my tools, grinds them cooler (no bluing), and holds its abrasive quality longer without having to dress it as often. I've have become a big fan of the Norton 3X blue wheels. They're worth the extra 12 bucks.

Larry
 
Jeff Jilg said:
Andy - I have heard the same explanation from others about cryo-steel. But I am skeptical. It seems to me the main molecular pattern and crystallization patterns will get developed when the steel is poured/forged then cools. I do not understand how the the molecules or crystals can get realigned from their solid state at room temperature. In any event, the proof of the pudding for this type of situation is a side by side scientific study of the final product. And that would be best delivered by an objective lab. It sounds like a neat theory, but I'm not convinced.

For cryo-steel I thought about trying it in our freezer. But I got a frozen look from SWMBO and that was the end of that. 🙂
Click to expand...
Ah yes, it is in the cooling process. Cryo treating should be done within a week of the actual heat treating and hardeing (Yes they are done first and cryo is not a substitute for them but an additional step that can be added after the heat treating process)

A quote from one of the cryo sites

"Deep cryogenic temperatures are required to effect a complete molecular change in most alloy steels, converting the retained austenite into martensite ( a more refined grain structure, which is more uniform than austenite ). "

There are two different temperatures (-120 and -310) and depending on the metal, you will get different percentage increases in tool steel quality. I am actually going to start playing with using "inferior" tool steels and doing cryo tempering. They have been cryo treating razor blades for years and planer blades for some time as well.
(Technology still gives me a buzz)

Here is a better explanation
http://lennon.csufresno.edu/~rlk16/cryo.html#Alterations
 
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Thanks, Steve!

Thanks for that, Steve. It means that for the first time ever, I've spoken to a manufacturer who actually knew what he was talking about and wasn't spouting "you know what" that flies like!

And I'd forgotton about Crown's Pro PM tools. The powder metallurgy process works to a similar end...that being a more homogenous steel resulting in a finer, truer edge.

This has become another "must read" thread...and very interesting too.

Andy
 
Andy Coates said:
The powder metallurgy process works to a similar end...that being a more homogenous steel resulting in a finer, truer edge.
Andy
Click to expand...

All things being a compromise of some sort in properties or process, wonder if this latest attempt to do what began with forging gains or loses for the turner. Loss of malleability in tool steels accompanies the gain in hardness, what's the tradeoff in powder technology? PS is supposed to make smaller chips and dips in an edge during turning than HSS, which is brittle and chunky, giving longer life. What does it take, besides the ability to turn a burr for scraping?

I don't believe there's an edge for all reasons and seasons, which is why I like to have the carbon stuff ready for the final surface prior to sanding. Other than grit and dirt, the main killer of edges is corrosion from acid in wood, at least here, where speed and heat are kept low. The powder process steel doesn't seem superior to its older brothers in that department. None of the alloys is particularly resistant. I have carbon of unknown composition, A2, M2 and 2060 tools, none of which appear to have much corrosion resistance. Pretty well levels the playing field on wet wood. On dry, where pressure is low, even heat isn't much of a factor, where high, could be.

What steel out there has the operator friendly edge-taking ability of A2 or carbon, the heat resistance of 2060 or HSS, and decent corrosion resistance.
 
What powdered metal technology brings to the table is a more consistent particle size. With "normal" tool steels the particles are more of an inconsistent size, so that when you sharpen, it can leave bigger gaps (if looked at under a microscope) in the edge.


In addition. many of the powdered metals are tweaked to increase the vanadium content for better wear resistance, such as V10 steel. These steels can also be cryo treated to add to the wear resistance.

The metal really isn't the cost as much as the heat treating. The more exotic metals require more exacting processes in temperature and environments (vacuum kilns, salt bath kilns, etc). And any steel can be Cryo treated, it would just be a trade off in what you might gain from it.

Understand, I do not claim to be an expert, and would love to sit down and discuss most of this with one. It is just the research I have done to understand the process more and look at bringing on more products in my own business.
 
Fascinating discussion about the pros and cons of carbon …
I must say I learnt how to turn, not with old chisels but antiques ones. Family owned from generations, they have, besides a quality which is now well surpassed by the new alloys, an incommensurate sentimental value. I have about 80 of them, and there is one I never understood how to use, and was just wondering whether this one was not owned by my grand mother to prepare butter wrinkles that we use to serve with salami slices. 😀
 
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I wonder how many of the turning tool suppliers (Sorby, Crown, Henry Taylor, etc.) will be selling Carbon steel tools in their booths at the Symposium?
 
Steve Worcester said:
Deep cryogenic temperatures are required to effect a complete molecular change in most alloy steels, converting the retained austenite into martensite ( a more refined grain structure, which is more uniform than austenite)
Click to expand...
I always suspected that them "Austin-ites" were not very refined.

MichaelMouse said:
What steel out there has the operator friendly edge-taking ability of A2 or carbon, the heat resistance of 2060 or HSS, and decent corrosion resistance.
Click to expand...
Steel that has been doped with the unstable element, delirium, has all of those properties -- at least for a while.

Bill
 
Wow this has gotten deep into metallurgy (sp?). I just prefer to think that all tools are made of "metal" or more specifially it is "steel". Now I see that there is much more to know. I usually try to buy Hamlet or Packard (same thing it seems except for handle color) in the 2060 steel. Why, because the CSUSA catalog seems to recommend the 2060 over the others. After reading all this thread I feel much more educated about the "steel" in my turning tools. 😱
 
Preveiw

This all started with my auction tommorrow. I drove by the location at lunch and the auction company was setting up and organizing. Shop stuff is very old as expected. His lathe is an old converted metal lathe but the box of tools had several Taylor and Sorby gouges and scrapers, mostly what I would call a Continental Style spindle gouges. I have read articles about the begining of the turning craze in the 50's where high school shop teachers basically taught student to turn with scrappers and skews. Maybe that why my Dad is a skew guy and I might try that agin next year. For the right price those will go home with me tommorrow.

More impressive was the wood collection. Each and every piece is labeled with species, date the tree was cut and where, date it was milled and by whom. Lots of 1" rough and 3/4" planed which doesn't move me but also there are big 12" wide slabs 6 to 12' long in walnut, cherry, maple, and other. Depending on the competition I made have to pick up some nice dry wood.
Frank
 
boehme said:
Steel that has been doped with the unstable element, delirium, has all of those properties -- at least for a while.
Bill
Click to expand...
In the cycling world we add the element "unobtainium"
 
Report on the auction

I need a bigger truck!

First the tools. I bought the complete set of Taylor tools for $30. I also bought a Craftsman 'D' set that are carbide tipped for $20 mostly because they were an oddity and thought someday I would have a use for them.

Now for the wood report. I filled my Dodge Dakota with 2" thick and up boards 6 to 12" wide, walnut, cherry and maple. One lot in the sale was giant walnut and cherry bowl blocks which I bought for $2. People saw me bidding exclusively on thicker boards so after the sales they gave me pieces in thier stacks that were too thick for them to use.

Truck load of wood and tools (cab full too) ... $219

Not a back day.
Frank
 
Sounds like a dandy bargain. Sometimes you win bigtime. I went to examine some "curly hard maple" the other evening only to find it extremely modestly figured soft maple stored so poorly I would have had to use it in foot and a half lengths to get 4/4 out of 5/4. If I were making maple bows, however, I would have been in business. Price was only semi-attractive, which turned out to fit the wood, rather than being a bargain.

If the Taylors are carbon, tune them up and take advantage. Don't have to do a full Underhill on them, but they can quickly work up to a cut under hand power, which is good enough. No pressure cutting is great for the cleanup.
 
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