Old Spindle Gouges

[donnercruz]

I bought a bunch of turning tools from a guy clearing out his shop many years ago. I pulled out a bunch of scrapers that I could use and put the rest away, not really looking at them since. I just went back through the pile to see what was in there that I might want to add to my "to use" pile and came across some old "Greenlee" and "Sorby" spindle gouges. They have a very shallow flute. They kind of look like roughing gouges but the sides are flared back. Since I have a couple standard spindle gouges, I was wondering if these my be useful for specific purposes. Maybe reground to a different bevel or sweep. I'm not sure if they are really worth using or not. I have them in a full range of sizes. Any comments or ideas?

 

[Robert Taylor]

i'm kinda curious too. i have an old buck bros. chisel with that same shape and grind. i've also had it for many years. since i don't have a roughing gouge that is what i've been using it for.

 

[Donna Banfield]

I'm going to venture a guess...

they look like what is being carried in the catalogues as a German or Continental spindle gouge.

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...creen=PROD&Product_Code=108759&Category_Code=

They typically have a somewhat shallow flute, and a blunt bevel. If I were using one, I would use it to make long sweeping coves on a spindle or the outside shape of a hollow form. I would not use it as a roughing gouge.

 

[Don O. Jr.]

Good Gouges

These are often referred to as "Continental" or forged gouges. They are forged, or stamped if you will, out of flat bar stock instead of being milled from round bar stock. When sharp they cut wonderfully, almost like a skew. They apparently originated in Europe, hence the "continental" name. They would have been fairly simple for a blacksmith to forge in his shop in the days before milling machines. Most likely they are carbon steel instead of high speed steel. The difference is easy to see in the sparks when grinding. Greenlee and Sorby are well known and well reputed tool making companies. I have seen and used older Sorby tools and they work quite well. I would sharpen them and give them a try.

Enjoy !

 

[rsser]

Yep. Agree, pic no 1 is a forged spindle gouge.

They are still being made eg by Henry Taylor in HSS. Bevel is 45 degrees.

I've recently being learning how to use one. Ideal for a long flowing spindle shapes. And if I understand MM's vids he's using something similar nearly vertical on his bowls.

The advantage is that the bevel length and angle are more or less consistent across it. But you have to take care to make sure that the cutting point is supported at the same part of the tool on the rest ... otherwise, thwack!

And you certainly can use it as a roughing gouge.

BTW, I have an old Berg CS bowl gouge: shallow flute, round bar, long ground-back wings. If that was original, it would have preceded the Irish grind by a few years.

Pic 2 is a bit of a puzzle. Not sure if the representation is clear. Best guess is that it was reground to function something like a spearpoint scraper.

 

[MichaelMouse]

They're gouges. What you use them for depends on you. When they were the only game in town, up to the late sixties, they had to and did do everything. They offer a consistent thickness and bevel angle in the most common grind, the one on the left, and are therefore excellent tools for paring. The short bevel makes them prone to skate if you try to poke them into the work. Thus the long fingernailed grind you see on the right, which will slice across the grain beautifully, but can be a bit grabby when you try to rotate it for a planing cut.

Don't expect to use them for hauling a lot of wood out of a deep(ening) piece. They don't poke well, as I mentioned, and they don't roll at all when the bevel is at a constant angle. They do what the roughing gouge does while requiring less space, and they also have only a small amount of edge by comparison, so a couple-three trips through dirty bark is a trip to the grind for them, but a rotation to a fresh edge on the big gouge.

This is my dream. Someday I'll spend the cash. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...op&Product_Code=IT-MARIO125&Category_Code=WIP

 

[donnercruz]

Thanks for the replys. I do plan on trying them out. I just wasn't sure if they had a specific purpose that they excelled at. BTW- both pictures are of the same tool, the second is just a side view.

 

[Robert Taylor]

my old buck bros. gouge is indeed carbon steel as someone said. does not stay sharp very long. it does well at light roughing/rounding of square stock and as MM said catches when trying to roll. being new to turning i thought it was me. when i aquire a roughing gouge it will get much less use.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Thanks for the replys. I do plan on trying them out. I just wasn't sure if they had a specific purpose that they excelled at. BTW- both pictures are of the same tool, the second is just a side view.

OK, that one will poke and grab. The peeling grind will be a constant angle ground by swinging the gouge across the wheel at the same angle. http://www.leevalley.com/shopping/AddViews.aspx?p=49571 Similar to this. This makes a gouge that will not roll, because the bevel is unchanging. If one part of the bevel is on the wood, you can raise or lower the handle at will, all places on the gouge being equal. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=CherryPeelOut.flv With variable angle bevels you can get underneath the wood, with a constant, you can't unless you change the angle of attack as if making an entry cut. If you maintain the AOA of an entry cut and pull the gouge across the piece, you're "shear scraping." If you change the angle to a peel and run down with bevel contact, you're shear cutting.

Rougher and forged comparison and the shavings they produce at minimum load cutting.

 

[robo hippy]

Picture #2 looks like a variation of the Sorby Spindle Master, with the exception that it is forged, and not from flat stock. I can see that it would work nicely on spindles, almost a cross between a skew and a gouge.

MM, Your dream tool has me drooling, and I don't normally use that type of tool. Maybe I do have a tool buying problem. I do have preferance for big heavy tools.

On 'shear scraping', I have found that to be a term that is not accurate. There are shear cuts where the cutting edge is applied at an angle of about 45 degrees to the rotation of the wood, and scraping cuts where the cutting edge is applied at a 90 degree angle to the rotation. Almost any tool (scrapers, skews, and gouges) can make both cuts. I think shear scraping comes from most of us using a scraper of some sort to do the cut, rather than a gouge.

robo hippy

 

[MichaelMouse]

On 'shear scraping', I have found that to be a term that is not accurate. There are shear cuts where the cutting edge is applied at an angle of about 45 degrees to the rotation of the wood, and scraping cuts where the cutting edge is applied at a 90 degree angle to the rotation. Almost any tool (scrapers, skews, and gouges) can make both cuts. I think shear scraping comes from most of us using a scraper of some sort to do the cut, rather than a gouge.

Could not agree more. My definition of scraping is edge broadside. Shear scraping is edge at an angle, but no attempt to get behind a shaving. The analogy I use is a normal plane iron turning a shaving from underneath versus a "York" pitch high angle, or a back-bevel (negative rake) which is semi-scraping. The full scrape is an extremely high angle, something which requires that turned burr to even pull a shaving.

 

[Keith T.]

Yes, these are continental gouges. If you study old training manuals, you will discover these tools were used for cutting coves and beads as well as planing cuts. Used on the center-line of the turning, with the bevel facing the direction you wish to go, they will cut coves SMALLER than the width of the gouge. The will cut straight across end grain on spindle work as well, with the flute at 90 degrees to the cut. Well worth learning these techniques.

 

[Ken Grunke]

I've always enjoyed using my continental style gouge, although more so before I became comfortable with the skew. It can do a lot that a skew can do without the scariness.

If you grind a roundish tip, as shown in the first picture, the edge's upper half makes the planing cut and even the rolling cut around a corner in each direction. Sounds contrary to accepted wisdom, and of course you can get a skateback but it's not violent like the skew's is because the curved edge allows a quicker escape from the wood--I guess that's the reason, never tried to verbalize it before 😎

You have a few to experiment with, and try different grinds. If I had one with fairly good steel, carbon or HSS, I'd try the shear scraper idea I first saw on Joaz Hill's site, with an upside-down/backwards bevel:

http://www.maine-web.com/woodturning/shapeshifter/scaper.html