• January Turning Challenge: Thin-Stemmed Something! (click here for details)
  • Conversations are now Direct Messages (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to John Lucas for "Lost and Found" being selected as Turning of the Week for January 13, 2025 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Oil & wax finish that doesn't dry out

Robert Feingold

Robert Feingold

Joined
Jun 14, 2011
Messages
119
Likes
64
Location
Brooklyn, NY
I saturate my bowls with boiled linseed oil on the lathe, then apply beeswax and buff with a soft cloth also with the lathe running. The finish is beautiful for a few days, then starts to look dry. I want to use a fast process that will last and stay looking good without being too glossy. Is there a step I'm missing?
Am I asking too much?
Rob
 
Not sure if this is your issue, but some boiled linseed oil contains metallic driers (such as the kind that HD sells)
 
Robert, you are expecting to much to soon. A great finish takes a bit of time to do. Not one app then move on. I am going to suggest you use poly or varnish instead of BLO. And do as many wipe on then off coats over time untill you are happy. If you are going to buff dont waste your time with anything other than gloss. If you dont like how shiny it gets tone it down a bit with steel wool. If a saturated piece with BLO goes to a wet climate it will become a god awful sticky mess.
 
Kelly's right. Good finishes take time to put on. My experience has been that if the finish is easy and quick to put on, that's about how long it will last.

Picture this: You start selling your work at local craft and art shows. After a 2-3 years, you will discover that it's often the same people who frequent these venues, so you will recognize some of the faces and some of them as customers (at least I do). If you used a friction polish or other quick type finish on your functional utility bowl, it will be gone after a couple of uses. What is left is bare wood, and your customer may not be happy that the nice shiny bowl they bought from you last year is now very dull, and doesn't at all look like it used to! They walk into your booth, you recognize them (or not) and they proceed to complain about the crappy looking bowl they bought from you last year. The 12 or so other people in your booth that were admiring your work quickly vacate -with their money- and all you hear is a lonely chhirrup of a cricket, who is also moving on to the next booth.

Like Kelly said, use a good quality finish - I like Bush Oil - and soak your piece thoroughly on the first coat. Let it sit for 20-30 minutes, re-coat the piece, and then wipe it dry with one or more paper towels - I like Viva. Leave it for at least 24 hours, scuff with 4000 Liberon Steel wool (not the HD stuff), use compressed air to blow off the dust and debris particles, and repeat the whole process again. This is repeated several times, depending on the wood, until I have the desired finish. After the last coat of finish is applied, leave it alone for 15-30 days to allow the finish to fully cure, and then buff it - I use the Bealle Buffing System. I have bowls that have been out there for over 8 years now, and my customers are still very pleased with how they look after repeated use. And that matters to me.
 
You could cheat and burnish/buff the wood prior to the oil. Here's a burnish demo with a grocery bag. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Ten-By-Interior.jpg You'll have to burn your oil in to get it through the case-hardening, but it works nicely.

Or, you could get what you asked for - one that won't dry (cure) by using mineral oil. But that's a treatment, not a finish. It'll wash away.
 
Greg Keddy said:
Not sure if this is your issue, but some boiled linseed oil contains metallic driers (such as the kind that HD sells)
Click to expand...

They all do -- that's the definition of boiled linseed oil and what differentiates it from raw linseed oil (raw linseed oil dries much slower because it does not have the metallic drying additives). The name has nothing to do with the oil being cooked in modern linseed oil, but originally it was heated to thicken it and speed up polymerization -- the name has stuck since the modern product does the same thing. Raw linseed oil is getting hard to find any longer since very few painters, if any, mix oil based paint to match the weather conditions.
 
Last edited:
Bill Boehme said:
They all do -- that's the definition of boiled linseed oil and what differentiates it from raw linseed oil (raw linseed oil dries much slower because it does not have the metallic drying additives). The name has nothing to do with the oil being cooked in modern linseed oil, but originally it was heated to thicken it and speed up polymerization -- the name has stuck since the modern product does the same thing. Raw linseed oil is getting hard to find any longer since very few painters, if any, mix oil based paint to match the weather conditions.
Click to expand...

Now if you want to find BLO without the metallic driers, look for "polymerized linseed oil" which is often metallic drier free.
 
Not all siccatives are metal salts, and those used are certainly not as likely to biomagnify to damaging or lethal doses as the old lead stuff. As long as you don't eat a lot of the finish, no problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siccative The days of lead carboxylates as siccatives are long gone. Given the low solubility of the compounds in ionic solvents like water, you'd really have to work to get enough to affect you using a piece so finished.

Heat and oxygen - boiling - will still give a partially cross-linked gelled version of the stuff that cures more rapidly, but it's relative, and a single coat is not likely to produce a smooth enough film to satisfy definition as a "finish."
 
I don't like a gloss finish on my utility bowls. If you use any surface type finish, it will wear off and leave unsightly patches of bare wood. The gloss of other finishes is gone shortly, and the bowl doesn't 'feel' like wood any more. I like the soft oils, Mike Mahoney's Walnut oil for me.

robo hippy
 
Robert,
I like the linseed oil finish as well and I don't care for the gloss finish on the bowls I keep. I process the surface to whatever it needs then put on one to two coats of 1/2 lb cut shellac. I let this dry for a bit and then I use a combination of 1/3 each Parafin wax, Tried and True Linseed oil, and Turpentine. I usually make a pint at a time and find a 1/3 of a cup of each fills the jar. I use it like paste wax, put in on, wait a bit, wipe or buff it. 4 coats and it feels and look great.
 
I've been playing with Mahoney's Walnut oil and it looks great but looses the luster after just a few days. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I prefer a slightly shinier finish. Certainly not gloss but not flat either.
 
If you want an oil type finish that can be built up to whatever degree of luster that you want, even to the point of looking more like a varnish, I would recommend that you try Minwax Antique Oil in the red can. I would forget about the soft and/or sticky waxes like paraffin and beeswax. If you feel that you must use a wax, I suggest carnauba as the only one with any reasonable longevity.
 
Mahoney's oil

robo hippy said:
I don't like a gloss finish on my utility bowls. If you use any surface type finish, it will wear off and leave unsightly patches of bare wood. The gloss of other finishes is gone shortly, and the bowl doesn't 'feel' like wood any more. I like the soft oils, Mike Mahoney's Walnut oil for me.

robo hippy
Click to expand...

Robo-I have used Mahoneys some. But in my hands it seems to dull in a few days. Needs repeated applications, much like the mineral oil I used to use. Then when I think I got what I want a few weeks later it dulls again. I am not sure how long/how many coats it would take to keep it looking good. That is my inexperience, Gretch
 
Bill Boehme said:
If you want an oil type finish that can be built up to whatever degree of luster that you want, even to the point of looking more like a varnish, I would recommend that you try Minwax Antique Oil in the red can. I would forget about the soft and/or sticky waxes like paraffin and beeswax. If you feel that you must use a wax, I suggest carnauba as the only one with any reasonable longevity.
Click to expand...

Is the Carnauba wax ok for food use?

For salad bowls, I've been using the Lemon Oil Wax available through CSUSA, but it's very soft and doesn't last. I've been telling people to use mineral oil after each use.......not sure if that's the best way to go, but it's a safe, and common method in use for food applications. I make very few salad bowls, but do occasionally, because it's frequently requested. My main push is decorative thin wall bowls..........

ooc
 
Last edited:
A lot of the sheen depends a lot on they type of timber you are using.

I have found that all mineral oils flatten of on all timbers no matter how many coats you put on.

Rustins danish Oil will build up a sheen but is not food safe.

Livos Kunos Oil is food safe and will build up a sheen, depending on how much sheen you want will dictate how many coats you put on.

You should allow 3 weeks for any finish to cure properly, it is a cross linking process that the finish cures into the timber, if not given this amount of time then the finish will deterioate quickly.

Back to the timber as some denser timbers will generate a sheen better than open grained timber.
 
Jim Carroll said:
A lot of the sheen depends a lot on they type of timber you are using.

I have found that all mineral oils flatten of on all timbers no matter how many coats you put on.

Rustins danish Oil will build up a sheen but is not food safe.

Livos Kunos Oil is food safe and will build up a sheen, depending on how much sheen you want will dictate how many coats you put on.
Click to expand...

Yes and no on the wood alone. When that oil is fresh and wet it has a fine sheen on any wood, does it not? That's because the surface of the oil is smooth enough to return the light to your eye with minimum scatter and loss. Curing film finishes accomplish this same thing while adding a bit of hardness to the film in the form of resin. If you think this business of scatter is just a presumption, take some steel wool to a shiny flowed film finish. Or use satin varnishes which have scatter substances in the blend, so they never allow a clear return even when both the wood and film surface are smooth.

Alternative means such as burnishing, as mentioned above, do depend on the type of timber.
 
Bill Boehme said:
If you want an oil type finish that can be built up to whatever degree of luster that you want, even to the point of looking more like a varnish, I would recommend that you try Minwax Antique Oil in the red can. I would forget about the soft and/or sticky waxes like paraffin and beeswax. If you feel that you must use a wax, I suggest carnauba as the only one with any reasonable longevity.
Click to expand...

Why don't you forget about them or better yet, try them, so you can speak from experience instead of just your opinion.
 
DOCworks said:
Why don't you forget about them or better yet, try them, so you can speak from experience instead of just your opinion.
Click to expand...

I have tried them many years ago and did not think very highly of the results so that is both my experience and opinion. Did you have some special insight that made you decide what I wrote was just opinion or is it just your uninformed opinion? Are you the forum police who decides what other can say?
 
Nope just get tired of your negative, snide or rude remarks about others opinions, never to them, just always back handed. It is boring and usually I ignore it, but today I didn’t. You can say whatever you like, yes I was a cop but retired, and never stopped anyone from voicing their opinions so long as I was given the same consideration. While I'm sure your curriculum vitae is much more impressive, this is about woodturning, sharing, and learning. While I find many of your post informative, the condescending tone is tiresome, my opinion only.
 
Last edited:
OK, I guess that we've had a mutual admiration going.

Otherwise, I guess that I was not aware that my online manners were being perceived as rude so I will pay more attention to how I phrase my responses. To everyone who I have slighted or insulted, I do sincerely apologize.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If you want an oil type finish that can be built up to whatever degree of luster that you want, even to the point of looking more like a varnish, I would recommend that you try Minwax Antique Oil in the red can. I would forget about the soft and/or sticky waxes like paraffin and beeswax. If you feel that you must use a wax, I suggest carnauba as the only one with any reasonable longevity."
__________________
Bill, I'm with you on this for decorative pieces. I can't get it at H-D or S-W, which ownes Minwax (except by the case), but True Value Hardware does have it. I use part of a chamois cloth to burnish it into the wood and find that I can control the lustre rather easily.

I also use mineral oil for salad bowls and spurtles, telling customers that they can get it cheaply at Target, that's it's easy to apply when needed, and that they can use it for cutting boards. What's left they can give to their spouse.

As for wax, when I use it, I use Renaissance Wax. Costly, but a little goes a very long way.

Mahoney Walnut oil and beeswax and Briwax are not among my acceptable choices. I have tried them all and do not like the results.
 
Robert, I noticed you have not chimed back in. Did any of these replies about finish help you at all? We all over time come up with what works for us. I noticed some do not like a glossy finish. My finish is not a built up finish but it gets waxed and buffed as its going to sit in a gallery. So it does shine. If a salad bowl never gets used the ART finish will hold up nicely. A piece with just linseed or mineral oil will look lifeless in a gallery setting in no time. I will back up a bit on linseed. Some furniture and sculptor makers like to wipe on and off of linseed(not built up) as it has a very soft look to it. But they waterspot badly. We spit when we talk. if a piece is sitting where conversation takes place over it it gets spotted sometimes pretty bad. So placement of work like that gets important. Not important if you are doing stuff for family and friends.
 
Dan, Yes. I dont use it cause of the cost to me living on an island. And I am a production turner for a living so have come up with a mix that works for me. Try it and see if you like it. You need to decide what kind of finish works for your head. But allow yourself to be flexible should you change your mind. I have close to 35 years of working with finishes and I am no expert. Bob Flexner and Alan Lacer should be listened to. Bob i am sure can be googled. He has books on finish. I believe every word the man says. Both he and Alan have really helped me out over the years. But not one finish is right for everyone or every application.
 
Kelly et al,
Thanks for the varied responses. I'm glad to see that there is still "more than one way to skin a cat" and debate is alive and well.
I actually suspected that a good long lasting finish would take some effort.
I was so impressed with Richard Raffins turning abilities that I believed his fast and loose finishing techniques would work for me. All of the items I finished that way have become dull in short order. Maybe if I add wax once a day for a week, once a week for a month....
In the past I have used Watco oil with success wet sanding the oil with wet/dry paper on the last coats creating a slurry. I'm back to that now. Any comments on that?
Has anyone tried submerging turnings in an oil finish instead of wiping it on? Seems like it may absorb the finish more deeply especially on the first coat.
Does anyone know of a better than Watco oil type finish out of the can?
I did learn alot as i'm sure others have, thanks to all.
Rob
 
Robert, You are paying a fortune for not much with Watco. I do dip all my work and let drip on a rack for 10 minutes then dry it. But I lose that mix about every two months and its now up to about $80 a batch plus tweeking during its life. But if you mix 1/3 gloss poly or varnish, 1/3 paint thinner and 1/3 boiled linseed you have just made yourself a danish oil. The nice thing is over time you will change the % of the mix to suit you. The oil in varnish and poly is Linseed oil. If you dont want 1/3 mixing try just thinning down the tung oil you like. You now have a wiping oil. And then you put on wipe off and over time stop when you are happy.The thinner the mix the deeper it will go into the wood but more times putting it on to begin reaching the surface. If you are just doing a few pieces dont go to the effort of making a dipping tank. Keep your mix in sealed cans. Making your own mix gives you the maker the power. And its cheaper.
My finish is not built up. I want the wood pores and grain to show. My goal is to have a resonably hard finish inside the wood pores. I do a lot of power buffing.
Jim Rinde out in Calif. uses epoxy as his finish.
Hope this helps.
 
KellyDunn said:
Robert, you are expecting to much to soon. A great finish takes a bit of time to do. Not one app then move on. I am going to suggest you use poly or varnish instead of BLO. And do as many wipe on then off coats over time untill you are happy. If you are going to buff dont waste your time with anything other than gloss. If you dont like how shiny it gets tone it down a bit with steel wool. If a saturated piece with BLO goes to a wet climate it will become a god awful sticky mess.
Click to expand...


Kelly would probably be happy to explain his "mixes" and methods if asked nicely.

I had some of my work in Linda's gallery (Kelly's spouse) that I first submerged in BLO over night to, produce (at least I thought it would) better transparency and allowed it to dry before applying an oil/poly mix. It sat at my location in Kona for a couple of months looking great before going to the Dunn Gallery in Kapaau (about 50 miles north) and to a much wetter climate. Kelly called me to ask my method of finish since the thing became a sticky mess and he had to buff it and let it dry again on a number of occasions before it finally settled down. I learned my lesson, one of many from Kelly.

I just realized that I responded to Kelly's comments and had not read the rest of the posts. I see Kelly volunteered his mixes and methods without being asked.
Damn. It's hard getting old.😱
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Robert Feingold said:
Kelly et al,

In the past I have used Watco oil with success wet sanding the oil with wet/dry paper on the last coats creating a slurry. I'm back to that now. Any comments on that?
Has anyone tried submerging turnings in an oil finish instead of wiping it on? Seems like it may absorb the finish more deeply especially on the first coat.
Does anyone know of a better than Watco oil type finish out of the can?
I did learn alot as i'm sure others have, thanks to all.
Rob
Click to expand...

Don't know what type of "proprietary" resin they use in the current Watco. When Thompson-Minwax bought it long ago, they started using an alkyd rather than a phenolic resin. Universally panned, and then it was sold. Currently it's Rustoleum that makes it. Think there might have been an intermediate buyer and a change back to phenolic. I haven't used it for a long time because I didn't like the alkyd.

Anyway, in the continuum from "Danish" through wiping to regular varnish, reduction of viscosity to further penetration will involve more solvent or more heat. The heat is sort of chancy, because it will accelerate the polymerization process, which, of course, will limit penetration. I warmed it it with a rag, because I didn't like the slurry unless I was filling small gaps in furniture joinery. Soaking will help penetration, warm soaking will help it most, because what goes in will all be oil/resin, and it's lumen filling by volume that gives it the translucence.

Biggest problem I see with slow-curing finishes like the "drying" oils is impatience. You don't give them a chance to firm up and the next coat will shut off the air and keep them that way. Warm them up and they start to weep. Or wet them with an incompatible solvent and they'll gum. Oil on top of water, right?
 
Last edited:
Robert Feingold said:
Does anyone know of a better than Watco oil type finish out of the can?
Click to expand...

Rob, if you don't mind the cost, Waterlox is an excellent tung oil based finish. I use it almost exclusively. I can control the gloss easily and I have yet to see a problem with the finish on pieces that have been around for years, including bowls that I use.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top