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oak and tannic acid stains.

Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
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Location
New City, NY
I have some very green fresh white oak that was slabbed by a chain saw. The saw marks have turned the 25 inch blanks partially black. My research indicates there was some kind of reaction between the oak's Tannic acid and the chain saw metal. When I put it on the lathe, the turning tools will probably further react with the wood. 🙁

I also found some references to cleaning off the black with Oxalic Acid. Has anybody ever neutralized the Tannic Acid with a base of some kind?

I would love to hear from anybody that has successfully returned the color, stopped the reaction, or even bleached oak. I am at stage one right now with green blanks.
 
Lemon juice will remove the metal stains. Turn it first, then apply concentrated lemon juice. In green wood, it is gone in seconds. If the wood has stain from a nail or other embedded metal, I don't think that will come all the way out. If the wood is dry and you have metal stains from the chuck, or from metal dust that clings to your tools when you sharpen, the lemon juice still works, but takes longer.

robo hippy
 
I have some very green fresh white oak that was slabbed by a chain saw. The saw marks have turned the 25 inch blanks partially black. My research indicates there was some kind of reaction between the oak's Tannic acid and the chain saw metal. When I put it on the lathe, the turning tools will probably further react with the wood. 🙁

Nope. Where the jaws engage, perhaps. They will be in contact with wet wood long enough to make an impression. Elsewhere, sliced and fallen will be its fate. Then you cure it for re-turning, and you no longer have wet wood to react.

So if you're turning a warp-and-go, shellac your chuck to minimize stain penetration, wipe your tool after sharpening to get any dust out of the way, and resort to chemicals if you must, after sanding has proved inadequate.

You want to cover every cast iron surface in the shop, and even then don't trust that you've prevented a stray shaving from falling and corroding. When you get done cleaning the lathe, lift the covers carefully and check for sneaky stuff. Includes sliding the guard on the jointer aside to look under. DAMHIKT
 
Ditto what MM said. That acidic dust and shavings gets everywhere. Next time I turn green oak I'm going to make myself a pressurized clean room like the Hazmat guys do. 🙂
 
I enjoy turning white oak.

Avoid touching the wood.
Metal from the turning tools don't leave any black but trace metal on your hand from grinding will.

Lemon juice usually takes the black stains away if applied soon. We keep a bottle of real lemon in the shop.
Cherry, maple, and several other foods will show black finger prints.

If you are twice turning bowls the dry wood does no react with metal.

Al
 
Tannin is the reason that white oak is the preferred wood for whiskey barrels. I suspect that they char the interior to somewhat reduce the amount of tannin that goes into the whiskey. Wine barrels are also made from white oak, but instead of only being used once they are used many times and the first time that they are used for secondary fermentation, the wine is not considered table quality because of the high level of tannins. The first batch is to "season" the barrels. Some amateur vintners just toss some white oak shavings into their glass carboys to add a bit of tannin to the wine.
 
Whit oak doesn't leak. works well for barrels to hold any liquid.

A favorite wood in the era of wooden ships.
The USSS Constellation and it sister ship the USSS Constitution had a lot of white oak timbers and planking.

"Old iron sides" got it nickname from cannon balls bouncing off its hull was planked with white oak not iron.

When they did a major restoration of the Constellation a 1996-1999 they had replace the white oak with purple heart because they could not get white oak timers large enough. Constellation was built in 1854.

Al
 
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Tannin is the reason that white oak is the preferred wood for whiskey barrels. I suspect that they char the interior to somewhat reduce the amount of tannin that goes into the whiskey.

I suspect they char the inside to take advantage of the ability of charcoal to adsorb various organic nasties which might still be in the distillate.
 
Does red oak also have Tannic acid? A friend brought me some oak from Kentucky that I think is red oak. Other green woods have stained my lathe but nothing like this oak. I was amazed at how black it made my lathe bed in such a short amount of time. It cleans up with wd40 and a scotch brite pad; I also make it a habit to remove the tail stock and banjo and cleaning the bottoms after turning green wood. As has been mentioned any other cast top tools in the area will stain or oxidize chips land on them. I've done some rearranging to minimize that.
 
Red is LOADED with tannins, as are other woods. Cherry is not quite as bad as oak, but it'll eat your iron as well. Walnut - well, it's right up there too. The tannins are there to make the wood unpalatable. Leaves/bark usually have some other sort of browse protection if the tree is one of the colonizers, rather than a denizen of the climax forest. With little oak up here, the local tanneries used hemlock and elm bark.

Don't try fuming red oak(s) with ammonia or you'll find that the other extractives common in red lead to an overall sickly greenish cast rather than a mellow brown like whites. May not even be tannins themselves that do the corrosion, but those other acids. www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2011/fpl_2011_zelinka003.pdf
 
Does red oak also have Tannic acid? A friend brought me some oak from Kentucky that I think is red oak. Other green woods have stained my lathe but nothing like this oak. I was amazed at how black it made my lathe bed in such a short amount of time. It cleans up with wd40 and a scotch brite pad; I also make it a habit to remove the tail stock and banjo and cleaning the bottoms after turning green wood. As has been mentioned any other cast top tools in the area will stain or oxidize chips land on them. I've done some rearranging to minimize that.

If you treat your lathe bed before turning various wet woods it make cleanup much easier.

Best solution I have found is ballistol that Don Geiger sells. I don't care for the smell. So I apply wipe off and leave the shop.
When turning wet wood I apply it about every three days. It leaves a coating on the metal that resists wood juices.
Keeps the banjo and tailstock sliding around. I do not use iron the tool rest posts as it makes them slippery and I want them to stay in one place.
Even Wd 40 before turning will work for most of the day.

Before Ballistol, I used to use paste car wax which lasts about a week when turning wet wood but is a lot more trouble,
Ballistol is just squirt on and wipe off. Overnight and the smell is gone.

Al
 
I suspect they char the inside to take advantage of the ability of charcoal to adsorb various organic nasties which might still be in the distillate.

Good point. After all, aging is supposed to make the whiskey mellow ... or is supposed to make the consumer mellow ... I forget which way that works.
 
Barrels, oaks, and oenological miscellania.....

Tannin is the reason that white oak is the preferred wood for whiskey barrels.

Actually, this is not quite correct. The reason why WHITE oaks (Quercus, Subgenus Quercus) are used for cooperage is that the wood's cell structure contains "plugs" of material in the vessels and tracheids of the wood (called tyloses) that create a water-impermeable barrier so the contents of the barrel are contained. Tannin could be easily obtained from many species, including red oaks; e.g. if barrels were made of red oak (Subgenus Erythrobalanus) there would be plenty of tannins available for subsequent wine flavor profile refinement, but the barrel contents would slowly leak out, and the product would be lost. White oaks maintain the barrel contents because of the tyloses in their wood, although there still is some evaporation and liquid volume loss with most wines/spirits stored "on the wood" while they condition, necessitating periodic 'topping-off' in many cases. It isn't really the presence of tannins as the primary reason why white oaks are used.

I suspect that they char the interior to somewhat reduce the amount of tannin that goes into the whiskey.

The charring of the barrel's interior provides a number of benefits for both wines and spirits stored in them, including reduction (but not elimination) of tannins, as well as adsorbing a range of organic molecules produced by fermentation, or carried through the distillation process, due to the 'charcoalization' zones in contact with the conditioning liquor.

Wine barrels are also made from white oak, but instead of only being used once they are used many times and the first time that they are used for secondary fermentation, the wine is not considered table quality because of the high level of tannins. The first batch is to "season" the barrels. Some amateur vintners just toss some white oak shavings into their glass carboys to add a bit of tannin to the wine.

The 'secondary fermentation' in wines is typically a malolactic fermentation (with bacteria) during barrel conditioning that is common in many different wines, and does not directly relate to the aging of the barrel, since it often accompanies most wine fermentation cycles, especially with red wines. It's true that the amount of tannin contribution from the barrel diminishes with age and 'cycles' of wine conditioned in it, but it is not related to the secondary fermentation process per se. Most commercial wines produced today that are stored in oak cooperage undergo secondary fermentation, whether it is their first cycle in the barrel or 6th cycle. Most primary fermentation of wine today (with the exception of generally small "old school" wineries) is done in stainless steel fermenters. If the primary fermentation is racked to a stainless secondary fermentation vessel, Bill is correct that oak chips are added to allow the chemical processes to continue that would have been enabled by storage in wood barrels (storage on wood chips is not just by amateurs, but also by some commercial vintners). Usually the wood chips are toasted prior to adding to the secondary fermenter to bring out different chemical characteristics, (e.g. development of vanillins and other terpenoid compounds). There's a lot of complex chemistry the wine undergoes after the yeast have had their way with the must....this emphasizes the importance of conditioning the wine following primary fermentation, as well as maintaining good racking and clarification processes as the wine ages.

"Cheers"....

Rob
 
Rob, wine barrels are not charred. They get dark after a number of years of use, but it isn't from charring. Yes, I know the difference between white oak and red oak. Red oak isn't much different than the bundle of soda straws that instructors use when teaching spindle turning.

Many years ago I was seriously into wine making for a number of years, so I am fairly familiar with the processes. All that I know about whiskey making comes from the moonshiners on the Discovery channel. 😀 😀
 
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