Does anyone have a picture or drawing of a negative rake scraper? I have read what they should be but cannot seem to get a proper cut. Bonnie Klein demos it and I have seen her tools she uses on acrylic but I cannot duplicate the cut. My pictures do not show enough detail. I thank you all in advance.
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Negative Rake Scraper
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I beleive there is a photo, drawing and measurements along with a discussion of their use in the current AAW Magazine. Mine arrived while I was gone and all I have been able to do is browse so far. But am sure I saw it in there.
Dave
Dave
Steve Worcester
Admin Emeritus
Actually the article you point out in incorrect. It claimsGary said:
"The idea of NRS’s is to ride the bevel (the lower, smaller bevel) just as in a gouge but the "flute" of these tools is extremely small...."
You do not ride the bevel with any scraper. What the negative rake does it create a different burr with relief. Riding the bevel will lead to inconsistent results and chaos.
I would recommend the Stuart Batty article in the Spring 2006 American Woodturner.
Steve
Thank you for the Info. I guess I should have read the article but Penmaker asked about pictures, not a "how-to-use-it". A link to a picture was what I posted.
Sorry for the confusion
I will remove the references to the article.
Gary
Thank you for the Info. I guess I should have read the article but Penmaker asked about pictures, not a "how-to-use-it". A link to a picture was what I posted.
Sorry for the confusion
I will remove the references to the article.
Gary
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The picture of Stuarts nrs is quite extreme it seems to me. Bonnie Klein uses one that is more like a "standard" scraper". A standard grind on the lower edge and a small grind on the top edge. There are probably any number of proper grinds that will work. Just seems that what I try is not working. Stuart is scheduled for a demo later this year I will look forward to that.
Steve Worcester
Admin Emeritus
What's not working for you?penmaker said:
Grind about a 45-50 degree angle on each side. The burr will be on the side opposite side of where you last sharpened. Hold the scraper parallel to the lathe bed, keep the toolrest REAL CLOSE. Use a very gentle touch to the wood. Cut for about 10-30 seconds, Resharpen the bottom, or flip it over to keep the angles even.
Steve has 54,000,000 posts!!!!
Steve-you are gabbier than it seems!!! Is this correct??? 🙂 Gretch
Steve-you are gabbier than it seems!!! Is this correct??? 🙂 Gretch
Holy smokes! Steve must be quite the typist! Especially since he was somewhere around 1,000 posts just recently.
We'll see if the problem resolves itself soon. Maybe as soon as he makes another post.
We'll see if the problem resolves itself soon. Maybe as soon as he makes another post.
54,892,799 and counting...
Steve Worcester
Admin Emeritus
I sometimes like to see if anyone is paying attention.
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You need a new title: Grand Exhaulted Multi-Mega-Poobah-Moderator
I think Steve was referring to the count of his posts when he referred to paying attention. It doesn't look like that problem fixed itself yet. But I'm patient and will give it another week of posts to see if it clears itself.
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Steve
I am a bit confused about your comment about not riding the bevel with a NRS. I just made 2 different sized scrapers tonight from two formerly never used files and rode the bevel like instructed, by the guy who wrote the article, and I was thrilled with the resulting long string of cuttings. When you ride the bevel that is what turns the burr into a flute for as long as the flute lasts. Another thing you might clear up for me if you would? After reading the responses by the turners on this thread everyone speaks of the burr not lasting. My question to this is, How does everyone get this burr they are talking about? I know you sharpen steel and you always get a burr on the reverse side. Hope the responders don't mean this burr that is worthless and is not the burr that turns a scraper into a cutting tool? I have always used a Veritas burnishing tool with a 5 or ten degree post that you rub the scraper scraping edge against to get the proper burr. This burr lasted long enough for me to make a small vase tonight after making the tool and it still is spewing long ribbons of wood. These two tools passed the test for me, now I am going to make a couple from M2 steel and harden. I don't write this to contradict anyones response but to see if we are all on the same page. I love making tools guys, thanks for a great thread. Mitch
I am a bit confused about your comment about not riding the bevel with a NRS. I just made 2 different sized scrapers tonight from two formerly never used files and rode the bevel like instructed, by the guy who wrote the article, and I was thrilled with the resulting long string of cuttings. When you ride the bevel that is what turns the burr into a flute for as long as the flute lasts. Another thing you might clear up for me if you would? After reading the responses by the turners on this thread everyone speaks of the burr not lasting. My question to this is, How does everyone get this burr they are talking about? I know you sharpen steel and you always get a burr on the reverse side. Hope the responders don't mean this burr that is worthless and is not the burr that turns a scraper into a cutting tool? I have always used a Veritas burnishing tool with a 5 or ten degree post that you rub the scraper scraping edge against to get the proper burr. This burr lasted long enough for me to make a small vase tonight after making the tool and it still is spewing long ribbons of wood. These two tools passed the test for me, now I am going to make a couple from M2 steel and harden. I don't write this to contradict anyones response but to see if we are all on the same page. I love making tools guys, thanks for a great thread. Mitch
Howdy Mitchell......
It's possible I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying, but the burr is self created on the top side of the scraper as it's ground. Most turners don't bother to burnish the scraper burr, and go directly from the grinder to the lathe.
I also have one of the Veritas carbide burr burnishers......is this the one you speak of? (see photo) I did use it for a short period of time, but haven't used it much for a decade, or more. I think it will be of some help with tools made from carbon steel (which I seldom use anymore), but I've been unsuccessful in seeing any improvement of the burr on M2, or harder tools. I understand that the carbide post is harder than the M2......so, in theory, it would seem the carbide would be capable of adding to, or improving the burr.....but, I suspect it will take more effort than most of us are willing to invest in it.
Your comment?
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Ron Sardo
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Here is an article, with diagrams, that explains negative rake scraping well.....scroll to the bottom:
http://www.woodturningdesign.com/askdale/8/8.shtml
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http://www.woodturningdesign.com/askdale/8/8.shtml
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If you use a burr you are actually making the same kind of cut the Hunter tool or other guttered edge tools make. The thin edge gets under the wood and lifts it out.
Best explanation of edge versus wood is from the flat folks. http://www.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/chapters/caop.html Where the terms sharpness angle and clearance angle are commonly used. The creation of a backbevel for planing mixed direction wood is actually negative rake scraping. That, or a "York pitch" are what people commonly use.
The guttered tool or turned/grinding burr equate pretty well to illustration "E" in the diagram, only it's the opposite side of the gutter rather than the chipbreaker which busts the shaving by forcing it to bend so rapidly that it folds the fiber, preventing a continuous dig and rip. The "negative rake" without the burr picks up and redirects the shaving so rapidly that it is bent in exactly the same manner.
Best explanation of edge versus wood is from the flat folks. http://www.sover.net/~nichael/nlc-wood/chapters/caop.html Where the terms sharpness angle and clearance angle are commonly used. The creation of a backbevel for planing mixed direction wood is actually negative rake scraping. That, or a "York pitch" are what people commonly use.
The guttered tool or turned/grinding burr equate pretty well to illustration "E" in the diagram, only it's the opposite side of the gutter rather than the chipbreaker which busts the shaving by forcing it to bend so rapidly that it folds the fiber, preventing a continuous dig and rip. The "negative rake" without the burr picks up and redirects the shaving so rapidly that it is bent in exactly the same manner.
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Steve
Hey listen Steve, first of all thank you for answering my response. Yes sir I think your partially misunderstanding my logic shall we call it? I know there is a burr on the opposite side of the tool when you sharpen and you say most turners go straight from the grinder to the lathe. Steve this is where they make the first mistake. The burr from sharpening is not really a useable burr at all but a bunch of unwanted shavings and junk from within the steel itself formed from grinding. Using this burr is the reason your resharpening the tool every 30 seconds.
The Veritas burnisher is the tool that will put a real useable burr on a tool that turns a scraper into a cutter instead of a scraper for the lifetime of the burr. You have the same one I do only I use mine all the time.You say that you don't see much of a burr when usin M2 steel? You say it seems to work on carbon steel but shows no improvement on harder steels? Excuse me, my new friend, but your thinking is backwards. Yes you get a large burr when using carbon steel and not so large on M2 steel but how large a burr has no relevance as to how well it cuts. In fact a large burr is detrimental to a scraper turned cutter, it grabs and doesn't cut. Last night I made two experimental scrapers out of two files. Now I am sure you agree this steel is harder than M2 steel? When using the Veritas burnisher to create the burr, which takes about 10 seconds to do, the resulting burr is hardly noticeable on the tool but it is there, Michael mouse hit the nail right on the head when he said the negative scraper burr cuts just like a Hunter carbide cutter. His cutter is ground at 7 degrees and this gives him the same cutting action as a burr put on the tool by the Veritas. This type grind is the reason you are able to ride the bevel with a scraper and riding the bevel changes the burr to be more like a fluting action. One thing I like here is you can plunge the bevel into the work , a bit above center, and push down on the handle and causes the top of the tool to cut up and then push up and your cutting up and down with the tool. I think pro turners do this to save time.
As for using the Veritas making turners invest more time than they care to invest, what time are they going to invest? It takes me 10 seconds to put a burr on my scrapers that work just like the carbide cutters on Mike Hunters finishing tools that are ground to 7 degrees and mimicked by our burr on the scraper. Same cutting action, but doesn't last as long of course.
I think the biggest problem concerning the burr that turners have in understanding is, you cannot use the burr that you get from grinding a tool. You need this Veritas tool to rub the cutting edge against to create a true burr. All your doing here is bending the very edge of the cutting edge up, this mimics the 7 degree cutting edge on the Hunter. Thank you Michael Mouse for that analysis. I am aware my comment about riding the bevel is what most turners reading this thread disagree with and untill a while ago I would too. John Lucas a guy we all know and respect just recently made a short video on the Hunter finishing tool on You Tube. He repeatedly refers to the fact that he rides the bevel untill he feels the sweet spot. Now you talk to Mike Hunter and he says, don't ride the bevel. Watch John Lucas's video on You Tube. Now you read the articles on making negative rake scrapers, forgot his name, he says ride the bevel with this tool and this is contrary from everything we learned but he is right, ride the bevel with this tool, if you don't your only utilizing half the potential of a great tool. After some more experimenting with different metals I am going to turn my Sorby scrapers into NRS. I am convinced this is a great tool. Quality of the cut is unbeatable. BTW, Steve, I keep referring to Hunter tools, well last week was the first time I used one and that week I made my first Hunter carbide tool. Great tool. Mike is a great guy to deal with.
Thanks again Steve , and I wish to see if we can get more turners interested in making their own tools. Mitch:cool2:
Hey listen Steve, first of all thank you for answering my response. Yes sir I think your partially misunderstanding my logic shall we call it? I know there is a burr on the opposite side of the tool when you sharpen and you say most turners go straight from the grinder to the lathe. Steve this is where they make the first mistake. The burr from sharpening is not really a useable burr at all but a bunch of unwanted shavings and junk from within the steel itself formed from grinding. Using this burr is the reason your resharpening the tool every 30 seconds.
The Veritas burnisher is the tool that will put a real useable burr on a tool that turns a scraper into a cutter instead of a scraper for the lifetime of the burr. You have the same one I do only I use mine all the time.You say that you don't see much of a burr when usin M2 steel? You say it seems to work on carbon steel but shows no improvement on harder steels? Excuse me, my new friend, but your thinking is backwards. Yes you get a large burr when using carbon steel and not so large on M2 steel but how large a burr has no relevance as to how well it cuts. In fact a large burr is detrimental to a scraper turned cutter, it grabs and doesn't cut. Last night I made two experimental scrapers out of two files. Now I am sure you agree this steel is harder than M2 steel? When using the Veritas burnisher to create the burr, which takes about 10 seconds to do, the resulting burr is hardly noticeable on the tool but it is there, Michael mouse hit the nail right on the head when he said the negative scraper burr cuts just like a Hunter carbide cutter. His cutter is ground at 7 degrees and this gives him the same cutting action as a burr put on the tool by the Veritas. This type grind is the reason you are able to ride the bevel with a scraper and riding the bevel changes the burr to be more like a fluting action. One thing I like here is you can plunge the bevel into the work , a bit above center, and push down on the handle and causes the top of the tool to cut up and then push up and your cutting up and down with the tool. I think pro turners do this to save time.
As for using the Veritas making turners invest more time than they care to invest, what time are they going to invest? It takes me 10 seconds to put a burr on my scrapers that work just like the carbide cutters on Mike Hunters finishing tools that are ground to 7 degrees and mimicked by our burr on the scraper. Same cutting action, but doesn't last as long of course.
I think the biggest problem concerning the burr that turners have in understanding is, you cannot use the burr that you get from grinding a tool. You need this Veritas tool to rub the cutting edge against to create a true burr. All your doing here is bending the very edge of the cutting edge up, this mimics the 7 degree cutting edge on the Hunter. Thank you Michael Mouse for that analysis. I am aware my comment about riding the bevel is what most turners reading this thread disagree with and untill a while ago I would too. John Lucas a guy we all know and respect just recently made a short video on the Hunter finishing tool on You Tube. He repeatedly refers to the fact that he rides the bevel untill he feels the sweet spot. Now you talk to Mike Hunter and he says, don't ride the bevel. Watch John Lucas's video on You Tube. Now you read the articles on making negative rake scrapers, forgot his name, he says ride the bevel with this tool and this is contrary from everything we learned but he is right, ride the bevel with this tool, if you don't your only utilizing half the potential of a great tool. After some more experimenting with different metals I am going to turn my Sorby scrapers into NRS. I am convinced this is a great tool. Quality of the cut is unbeatable. BTW, Steve, I keep referring to Hunter tools, well last week was the first time I used one and that week I made my first Hunter carbide tool. Great tool. Mike is a great guy to deal with.
Thanks again Steve , and I wish to see if we can get more turners interested in making their own tools. Mitch:cool2:
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Steve Worcester
Admin Emeritus
A negative rake scraper has two bevels that are about 45 degrees each and meet in the middle of the steel. It is used to get a clean cut and for a short period of time as the small burr doesn't last long. If you were to ride the bevel, it would act as a parting tool. It is used parallel to the bed, level to the horizon (so to speak).
I never found much use for a negative rake scraper, except for trimming up and adjusting the rim of a threaded box as it is very gentle. No special tool, just my small 1/2 inch scraper. Tried it a few times on bowls, and it didn't do as well as a burr straight from the grinder. I use scrapers a lot on my bowls, both for roughing and for finish shear cuts on both the inside and outside of a bowl. At a shear angle, with a fresh burr right off the grinder, I get a cut that is equal to any I can get with a gouge. I even have one that has a secondary bevel that I ride when I finish cut across the bottom of a bowl to the very center. I have burnished a burr on my scrapers with a triangle scraper (can't do it with a round one), and can feel the burr, but it doesn't seem to cut as well as the grinder burr for either rough or finish cuts. When I do have to touch up the face of the tool, it takes longer to get a fresh edge than my standard method: hone off the burr, and resharpen. This gives me a very strong burr for hogging of stock and a very fine burr for finish cuts. I have an 80 grit CBN wheel.
robo hippy
robo hippy
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robo
Interesting response. Can I ask you a hypothetical question? You say you have a scraper with a secondary bevel that you use to ride the bevel scrape across the bottom of bowl to the center?Did you ever try this, set the tool rest little higher than center, lay the NRS flat on tool rest, raise the tool handle to point the tool down slightly,cut across the bottom to the center then push in slightly on the tool and push down on the handle of the tool making the tool cut up then lift up on the handle to cut down. Your actually cutting up on the burr and down on the btm 45 degree angle. If you answer yes, what were the results? Thanks Mitch
Interesting response. Can I ask you a hypothetical question? You say you have a scraper with a secondary bevel that you use to ride the bevel scrape across the bottom of bowl to the center?Did you ever try this, set the tool rest little higher than center, lay the NRS flat on tool rest, raise the tool handle to point the tool down slightly,cut across the bottom to the center then push in slightly on the tool and push down on the handle of the tool making the tool cut up then lift up on the handle to cut down. Your actually cutting up on the burr and down on the btm 45 degree angle. If you answer yes, what were the results? Thanks Mitch
Mitch,
Never did that one. Personal preference is for a shear cut rather than a scraping cut. It doesn't seem to make any difference in how fine of a burr you have, negative rake, burnished, straight from the grinder, or whatever. Shear (cutting edge at 45 degree angle to the rotation) always seems to cut cleaner than a scraping (cutting edge held flat or 90 degrees to the rotation) cut. Scraping cuts do tend to pull more than shear cuts. You can get away with a scraping cut better on harder, denser woods than you can on the softer ones, and most of my woods I turn are in the softer category, like cherry, big leaf maple, walnut. We don't have sugar maple here (#*&%#!), and most of the Eastern trees that grow here grow very fast due to a wet mild climate: a 30 year old sycamore/plane, silver maple, or elm tree is 30 inches in diameter. Riding my scraper across the bottom is just about like having half of a gouge going across, and gently riding the bevel. A very clean cut. Note, I use a swept back to the left grind, also called an 'inside' scraper, and am cutting with the down side almost on the tip of the scraper. I don't like to use a round nose scraper for this because you will be cutting at or above the center line or the tool/.blade, and this causes a leverage problem, and if you catch, it will slam down flat, and dig some big holes. This is like when using a skew, you cut on the lower portion of the skew, not on the upper portion.
robo hippy
Never did that one. Personal preference is for a shear cut rather than a scraping cut. It doesn't seem to make any difference in how fine of a burr you have, negative rake, burnished, straight from the grinder, or whatever. Shear (cutting edge at 45 degree angle to the rotation) always seems to cut cleaner than a scraping (cutting edge held flat or 90 degrees to the rotation) cut. Scraping cuts do tend to pull more than shear cuts. You can get away with a scraping cut better on harder, denser woods than you can on the softer ones, and most of my woods I turn are in the softer category, like cherry, big leaf maple, walnut. We don't have sugar maple here (#*&%#!), and most of the Eastern trees that grow here grow very fast due to a wet mild climate: a 30 year old sycamore/plane, silver maple, or elm tree is 30 inches in diameter. Riding my scraper across the bottom is just about like having half of a gouge going across, and gently riding the bevel. A very clean cut. Note, I use a swept back to the left grind, also called an 'inside' scraper, and am cutting with the down side almost on the tip of the scraper. I don't like to use a round nose scraper for this because you will be cutting at or above the center line or the tool/.blade, and this causes a leverage problem, and if you catch, it will slam down flat, and dig some big holes. This is like when using a skew, you cut on the lower portion of the skew, not on the upper portion.
robo hippy
Try a Skew!!
I think a good example of a neg. rake scraper is a skew. If you were to sharpen a skew and take it straight from the grinder you would have a burr on one side. If you present that tool to the work with the burr facing up you would have a great scraper. And please don't down play the usefulness of the scraper. It is as versatile as the bowl gouge in it's application.
I think a good example of a neg. rake scraper is a skew. If you were to sharpen a skew and take it straight from the grinder you would have a burr on one side. If you present that tool to the work with the burr facing up you would have a great scraper. And please don't down play the usefulness of the scraper. It is as versatile as the bowl gouge in it's application.
NR Scraping
OK! I think people are missing the point. Scraping is using a scraper. Scraping occurs with the tool held handle high, with the edge in contact with the work piece at a point below the handle. Typically a scraper is used with the tool rest somewhat farther and higher from the work piece than you would use with a gouge.
A standard scraper makes contact with the work piece, well below the centerline. Since a scraper is a finishing tool, it is a challenge to follow the shape and continue the tissue thin scraping.
The NR Scraper changes the geometry. Instead of your scraper ground with one bevel, it is ground with two. This change allows the turner to raise the point of contact to the centerline or just below center.
I sharpen my NRS with a top bevel of perhaps 5 degrees. Then the bottom bevel is about the standard 70 degrees. This allows the point of contact, for me, to move almost to the centerline and I'm still scraping.
Different bevel angles will allow different heights of the the tool rest and different angles of the scraper tool. All those variables are unique to each turner. The important part of the NRS technique is to allow the turner to move the point of contact from significantly below the centerline to just below or at the center line of the work piece.
OK! I think people are missing the point. Scraping is using a scraper. Scraping occurs with the tool held handle high, with the edge in contact with the work piece at a point below the handle. Typically a scraper is used with the tool rest somewhat farther and higher from the work piece than you would use with a gouge.
A standard scraper makes contact with the work piece, well below the centerline. Since a scraper is a finishing tool, it is a challenge to follow the shape and continue the tissue thin scraping.
The NR Scraper changes the geometry. Instead of your scraper ground with one bevel, it is ground with two. This change allows the turner to raise the point of contact to the centerline or just below center.
I sharpen my NRS with a top bevel of perhaps 5 degrees. Then the bottom bevel is about the standard 70 degrees. This allows the point of contact, for me, to move almost to the centerline and I'm still scraping.
Different bevel angles will allow different heights of the the tool rest and different angles of the scraper tool. All those variables are unique to each turner. The important part of the NRS technique is to allow the turner to move the point of contact from significantly below the centerline to just below or at the center line of the work piece.
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Penmaker,
Go to the Batty demonstration and you will learn all that there is to know. I have taken several classes with Stu (an incredible teacher, by the way) and learned a great deal about the NRS, from its history and usage centuries ago on ivory to its present applications.
The NRS has become one of my regularly used tools. I have several different tools with different shapes and amounts of grind. The skew is probably my favorite.
In a pinch, a bedan or parting tool can be used as a NRS by simply lifting one edge in grinding, creating a small secondary bevel.
After using Negative Rakes for a while, you will become convinced of their utility, especially in putting a finish on extremely hard woods, exotics, and plastic materials if you work them.
Dave
Go to the Batty demonstration and you will learn all that there is to know. I have taken several classes with Stu (an incredible teacher, by the way) and learned a great deal about the NRS, from its history and usage centuries ago on ivory to its present applications.
The NRS has become one of my regularly used tools. I have several different tools with different shapes and amounts of grind. The skew is probably my favorite.
In a pinch, a bedan or parting tool can be used as a NRS by simply lifting one edge in grinding, creating a small secondary bevel.
After using Negative Rakes for a while, you will become convinced of their utility, especially in putting a finish on extremely hard woods, exotics, and plastic materials if you work them.
Dave
John,
I will disagree with you a bit on scraper use. On the outside of a bowl, I usually have the scraper contacting the wood at or slightly below center. On the inside , I am at or slightly above center. In case of a catch, the scraper will fall out of the cut, rather than deeper into it. I do the same thing with a gouge. I do keep the handle slightly high with the tool pointed slightly down for scraping cuts. For shear/finishing cuts, I drop the handle with the cutting edge up. I do keep the tool rest closer when roughing with a scraper than I do when roughing with a gouge. Primary reason is with the scraper, there is more steel in contact with the wood while cutting than with a gouge. This translates to me as more pressure on the cutting edge. I frequently reach out 3 to 4 inches with a 5/8 gouge, but never more than 2 to 3 inches with a scraper. When I am doing a shear finishing cut, I have the tool rest close in. Levering out a ways over the tool rest doesn't make for a good steady cut. That's my way of doing it.
I do need to experiment with a negative rake scraper more.
robo hippy
I will disagree with you a bit on scraper use. On the outside of a bowl, I usually have the scraper contacting the wood at or slightly below center. On the inside , I am at or slightly above center. In case of a catch, the scraper will fall out of the cut, rather than deeper into it. I do the same thing with a gouge. I do keep the handle slightly high with the tool pointed slightly down for scraping cuts. For shear/finishing cuts, I drop the handle with the cutting edge up. I do keep the tool rest closer when roughing with a scraper than I do when roughing with a gouge. Primary reason is with the scraper, there is more steel in contact with the wood while cutting than with a gouge. This translates to me as more pressure on the cutting edge. I frequently reach out 3 to 4 inches with a 5/8 gouge, but never more than 2 to 3 inches with a scraper. When I am doing a shear finishing cut, I have the tool rest close in. Levering out a ways over the tool rest doesn't make for a good steady cut. That's my way of doing it.
I do need to experiment with a negative rake scraper more.
robo hippy
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Puzzled. Do you deliberately haul your toolrest so far back that the overhanging portion of the tool is heavier than the amount on the other side of the fulcrum? Seems like a bad plan. If you're in close with your rest and over center on an outside surface, the heavier handle will drop and the tool will rise into the air. Same, but to a somewhat lesser degree with cutting below the centerline inside. The handle drops, and if you're close in with your rest, as good control seems to prefer, the other end arcs through air.
What you say is often repeated, so there must be a lot of people that do it, but it still makes no sense to me. Both gravity and mechanical advantage favor minimum overhang.
By your user name penmaker are you trying to use the scraper on pens or bowls and face plate type work ??