Need tool advice for Hollow Forms

[Jim Stoppleworth]

I'm going to do try to do some hollow forms. I'm not sure how many I'm going to do. What tool would you hollow formers advise me to add as a basic hollowing tool to try this area of turning?

Jim

 

[TurningDog]

I started with the ellsworth video and tools and realized quite quickly I could have made both rools for less than $20, including buying the actual ellsworth bits, but the video was wonderful enough to make the whole package worthwhile to me. My personal suggestion is make the tools and make an extra one that puts the bit at 90 degrees. You can also quite cheaply build your own jamieson style rig to attach the tools in as well. If you want to buy a more advanced and well made hollowing system but still have it affordable Check out monster tools. I am sure someone will post the link or look back at my tool review and also check out the swan neck hollower I have listed there it is as good as any on the market for significantly less money.

 

[Vernon Oberle]

Holowing tools

I also submit that the Lyle Jamison tape is a very good resource if your inclined toward the captured system. It is very clear and informative. Even if your inclined to either free hand or captured method the information you learn will add to your knowledge base and make you better able to make good safe decisions.

Vernon

 

[David Somers]

Stoppy,

I am a pretty new turner, and living in a bit of an isolated area as well. I don't get exposure to other turners for help. The Ellsworth Videos have been my teacher for the most part, both on the gouge, and on Hollowing. Both videos resonated with me very well. I had no problem following them. Other videos I have picked up since have not been nearly as clear to my way of thinking. For tools however I chose the Kelton Hollowing tools and have been very satisfied with them. They feel right to me while some other tools I have played with since have not felt as good. This is all subjective of course. I did try a Crown Termite for end grain hollowing and did not like that at all. I keep retrying it periodically to see if I have reached a point where it makes sense, but I never feel good using it. The Kelton tools felt good from the moment I laid them to the wood.

Dave

 

[georgetroy]

I'm one of those who would rather buy tools than make my own. I have outriggers on many of my hollowing tools. Outriggers will reduce torque and catches. They are rather expensive but, the John Jordan tools are quite effective, more so with the BCT outriggers rods I attached to them. I also like the tools by Al Basham, these also have outriggers. www.albasham.com
lets don't forget the Sorby Tools, John Lea tools. I have all of these and more. Over the years I have tried to make my self proficient with all tools and all brands, you never know what you will run into out there. GT

 

[Jim Stoppleworth]

Is anyone familiar with Don Pencil's hollowing tools?

Jim

 

[TurningDog]

Well Stoppy if you are into a captured system like the jamieson my friend and I spent the morning buying parts and this afternoon making one complete with spindle steady for under $55.00

parts include

36" 5/8 zinc plated steel bar $6.50
3 18" 1/2" black iron pipes threaded 1.89 each
2 -4.5" 1/2" black iron pipe threaded $0.89 each
3 L fittings $0.59
1 t fitting $0.79
2 M5 cap screws (with 4mm hex key) 1.69
bit and tap for set screws $4.89
2 2" x 1/4 grade 8 bolts $0.66
1/4x20 bit and tap set $5.29
2 3"x1/4 bolts with washers and wing nuts $0.39

HSS steel tear drop cutter ordered from monster tools 20.50
Roller blades from goodwill 4.50


All this, some pieces of scrap ply, and a few tools made a hollowing system I am both proud of and a bit envious of.

Tools included drill press, round file, grinder with 36 grit wheel and some sandpaper to take the steel rod down just enough to fit it into the piece of pipe

I am makingven cher one tommorrow for myself and it will be even cheaper because I am borrowing his taps.

 

[Steve Worcester]

I would start by asking

How big (around)
how deep
Both of those are going to be a large factor in the choice of rigs. I have McNaughtons from smallest to the largest, and three different captive rigs. The 1" bar will go to 24" deep. I also have the Ellseworth setup, and like it's versatility.

 

[TurningDog]

I would start by asking

How big (around)
how deep
Both of those are going to be a large factor in the choice of rigs. I have McNaughtons from smallest to the largest, and three different captive rigs. The 1" bar will go to 24" deep. I also have the Ellseworth setup, and like it's versatility.

The versatility of having more than one setup is best in my opinion.

BTW we just did the initial roughing on my new friends new rig and quite handily did a 17" deep vase that is 3 inches at the bottom 7 at its largest near the top and hollowed the whole thing through a 2 and 3/4 inch hole. The inside is rough and will be until we can get a tear drop cutter in there

 

[DMcIvor]

I have Don Pencil's Scorpion hollowing rig. This is my first venture into hollow forms and I haven't used the tool enough to give you any constructive comments.

If you haven't yet come across Lyn Mangiameli's reviews on hollowing tools (including Pencil's systems, which he rates highly) from More Woodturning (http://www.fholder.com/Woodturning/lyn.html) I'd definitely recommend checking out the series. It will answer some of your questions and raise a lot more.

The one thing I will mention about Pencil's system and the other similar tools (Sorby, Stewart) is that so far I have been unable to find any good instruction on using them. The materials that come with the Scorpion tool and the info for the Sorby system will assure that you connect all the components in the right order, and after that you're on your own. Definitely don't start out using them on a $75 chunk of amboyna burl!

 

[Andy Coates]

hollowforms and tools

It's easy to be seduced by the claims made by manufacturers for their hollowing tools when you first start out. When you've struggled for a while you eventually "think" about what you're doing and come to some conclusions, one of which is:

1) I can achieve the same results by cutting or scraping

So, you can make/buy a cutting tool such as the Hamlet Big Brother, Crown Beaver, or the Roly Monroe system, or a scraping tool which would be any with a carbide type tip. You can make the tipped type quite easily but the sheilded cutting types require much greater metalwork skills than I have.

Steve's questons were highly pertinant. The "how deep" is VERY important. My suggestion would be to start small and not too deep. I think it's a common approach to expect a 2ft tall hollowform vase straight off. If my own experience is anything to go by then this will not happen.

If you begin with a good quality carbide tipped and articulated tool you should be able to work up to about 8" tall in time. You can always buy larger, stronger, deeper capacity tools later on.

A must-have accessory for the budding hollowformer, in my opinion, is a high quality forstner bit to take out the centre of your vessels. The relative speed of the wood at the centre is virtually nill, and therefore presents problems when you try to cut it out. The forstner bit in a Jacob's chuck will not only remove this problem wood, but also give you a final depth to work to.

I really enjoy hollowform work but it can be a frustrating journey. I don't use a rig at all at present, but I think I am now reaching sizes where a rig is both necessary and advisable if only to save the wear and tear on my shoulders!

Happy hollowing
Andy

 

[TurningDog]

Andy makes some good points about not being seduced by the fancy systems. Making a boring bar even one with a swivel head is pretty easy. Making one with a flat surface so you can add an adjustable scraper is much easier that i thought it would be. While not every woodworker is going to have every tool you need to make a hollowing rig you probably know someone with the only one you don't have most likely the angle grinder, but hey those can be had very cheaply and since even a cheap one at $15 to $20 will more than make up for itself, it is is worth the cost. I never new how many things I would use mine for until I bought one, now I whip it out for this or that every few days. The only other the woodworker might not have is a tap and drill bit the right size but any good "hardware" like Ace will have them reletively cheaply, the most I have ever paid for them in a HSS variety was for a 1/2" irwin bit and tap combo pack and that was only $12.

The other thing you will want if you do deep hollows or even not so deep hollows is a sturdy drill bit extender for going in deep with forstner and if possible get a yourself 1 heavy duty forstner for this purpose alone. I bought a $45 carbide tipped 2" forstner with a long thick heavy shank which will make all the work go better and be less problematic.

 

[Jim Stoppleworth]

I would start by asking

How big (around)
how deep
Both of those are going to be a large factor in the choice of rigs. I have McNaughtons from smallest to the largest, and three different captive rigs. The 1" bar will go to 24" deep. I also have the Ellseworth setup, and like it's versatility.

Steve,

To start out I'd like to make smaller items. I'm guessing no more than 6" outside diameter by 8 to 12" tall.
Now we all know that can change when LOML's, "Wow is that ever neat honey, can you make one twice as tall as that?", enters the picture. But small is where I'm starting, probably a little larger than weed pots. After LOML's first one the next couple will be for our young grand daughters.

Turning dog,
Thanks for the in depth answers, but I have zero tool making capabilities, that's both talent and equipment.
I'm looking seriously at Don Pencil's system and getting the blems he has on sale right now.

Jim

 

[smoky10]

Well Stoppy if you are into a captured system like the jamieson my friend and I spent the morning buying parts and this afternoon making one complete with spindle steady for under $55.00

parts include

36" 5/8 zinc plated steel bar $6.50
3 18" 1/2" black iron pipes threaded 1.89 each
2 -4.5" 1/2" black iron pipe threaded $0.89 each
3 L fittings $0.59
1 t fitting $0.79
2 M5 cap screws (with 4mm hex key) 1.69
bit and tap for set screws $4.89
2 2" x 1/4 grade 8 bolts $0.66
1/4x20 bit and tap set $5.29
2 3"x1/4 bolts with washers and wing nuts $0.39

HSS steel tear drop cutter ordered from monster tools 20.50
Roller blades from goodwill 4.50


All this, some pieces of scrap ply, and a few tools made a hollowing system I am both proud of and a bit envious of.

Tools included drill press, round file, grinder with 36 grit wheel and some sandpaper to take the steel rod down just enough to fit it into the piece of pipe

I am makingven cher one tommorrow for myself and it will be even cheaper because I am borrowing his taps.

We would like to see this set up. How about some pictures.

 

[TurningDog]

We would like to see this set up. How about some pictures.

I am making mine right now and it should come in under $30 will have pictures in 2 weeks when the digicam comes off layaway.

 

[Martin Braun]

Well Stoppy if you are into a captured system like the jamieson my friend and I spent the morning buying parts and this afternoon making one complete with spindle steady for under $55.00

parts include

36" 5/8 zinc plated steel bar $6.50
3 18" 1/2" black iron pipes threaded 1.89 each
2 -4.5" 1/2" black iron pipe threaded $0.89 each
3 L fittings $0.59
1 t fitting $0.79
2 M5 cap screws (with 4mm hex key) 1.69
bit and tap for set screws $4.89
2 2" x 1/4 grade 8 bolts $0.66
1/4x20 bit and tap set $5.29
2 3"x1/4 bolts with washers and wing nuts $0.39

HSS steel tear drop cutter ordered from monster tools 20.50
Roller blades from goodwill 4.50


All this, some pieces of scrap ply, and a few tools made a hollowing system I am both proud of and a bit envious of.

Tools included drill press, round file, grinder with 36 grit wheel and some sandpaper to take the steel rod down just enough to fit it into the piece of pipe

I am makingven cher one tommorrow for myself and it will be even cheaper because I am borrowing his taps.

I second this approach. I spent about $25 for the business end of an articulated HF tool that I custom made. My parts list is pretty similar - 5/8 cold rolled steel, 10-32 allen screws with tap & tap wrench. I really like it because you can set it up so the cutting edge is right in-line with the center line of the tool so there is no lateral torque. It really surprised me - even with no handle yet, it was nicely scraping 10" off the tool rest.

I don't see the need for an arm brace at this point. I am going to do the same as you mentioned above with the pipe for a handle, although I'm thinking of filling mine with lead shot (ala Glaser). Still half to go out & buy that stuff though. One question - how are you going to affix the handle to the rod? set screws?

 

[TurningDog]

I don't see the need for an arm brace at this point. I am going to do the same as you mentioned above with the pipe for a handle, although I'm thinking of filling mine with lead shot (ala Glaser). Still half to go out & buy that stuff though. One question - how are you going to affix the handle to the rod? set screws?

mine is working out a little differently than we set my firends up for. I made the d handle out of 1/2" pipe. But set up my tools so I could screw the whole tool into the handle rather than sliding the bar in and using set screws which is what we did for his. This way I will end up with more versatility and only 2 tools instead of the half a dozen he has now made. I am using a straight bar with a flat surface ground at the business end and using a jamieson style bit setup I can rotate to the position I want or use a teardrop or round carbide scraper screwed into the same hole. My second tool is where I am getting stuck and that is find a way to either make the swan neck out of 5/8" rod after I have hammered the rod into the pipe or go with a smaller one and how best to thread the end so it will screw into a reducing bushing.

I thought about filling the handle with shot but after using it with the straight tool and turning the lathe all the way up on a 4x7x10" deep vase and not getting and handle vibration I didn't bother. A handle & tool made of 1/2" black iron pipe is really enough viration control on its own.

 

[Martin Braun]

Turningdog - I look forward to seeing pictures of your's when it's done! For now, I think I'm going to go try it with set screws for fixing the handle to the tool.

 

[Steve Worcester]

Steve,

To start out I'd like to make smaller items. I'm guessing no more than 6" outside diameter by 8 to 12" tall.

You would be fine with a 3/4" captive bar setup. I wouldn't (personally) recommend hand held tools for 12" of depth. The flex of the tool and the potential to rip out of your arm when it gets full of shavings can be pretty dangerous. 8" would be ok for an armbrace style device and using Jordans, Bosch or McNaughtons cutters. Figure the wider you go, the more tool is off the rest also.

 

[Jim Stoppleworth]

Thanks Steve,

I ordered Don Pencil's cutter system (he has blems on sale right now) as a birthday present to myself. (as if we need an excuse to buy a new tool.)

Based on what you're saying I should be in good shape for the near future until 8" to 10" tall vases are smaller than what I want to make.

I couldn't help but notice your 54 million plus posts. That is not a real number I hope!

Jim

 

[Wilford Bickel]

Thanks Steve,

I couldn't help but notice your 54 million plus posts. That is not a real number I hope!

Jim

Steve was posting privately to himself long before the forum was around!!! 😀 😀

Wilford