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Need sharpening system---make my own?

MesquiteMan

MesquiteMan

Joined
Oct 16, 2005
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Location
Central Texas
Website
www.turntex.com
After my turning session with Jim on Tuesday, I realize that one of the first things I need to invest in is a sharpning system. Up until this point I have been sharpening my tools on a bentop belt grinder and thought I was doing pretty good. Jim brought his Wolverine and grinder and showed me exactly what a properly sharpened tool looks like!

I know I could learn how to sharpen by hand but I really want to spend my time learning turning techniques. Unfortunatly, I have a very limited budget due to trying to save for our adoption expenses and still need a chuck as well.

I was thinking about buying the vari-grind portion of the wolverine and then welding and making the rest of it. Seems pretty easy to do and I have access to plenty of free metal to do it with. What do you think about this prospect? Also, I assume I need a new grinder? I have a Delta 6" with 3/4 coarse wheels. Should I upgrade to an 8" or can I just upgrade the wheels on my 6"? I assume teh smaller the wheel, the more of a hollow grind I will get which I understand it NOT good for turning tools.

Thanks for any and all advice.
 
Sharpen up

I use the Tru-Grind jig. I'm well-pleased with it. Craft Supplies carries it.
 
All that you need to do is put some new aluminum oxide white (or pink or blue) wheels on your grinder. Instead of welding up metal, all that you need is to make some tool holding fixtures using wood.

Bill
 
Bill,

The 6" wheels will not cause too much hollow grind? Remember, I am totally new to this so I really don't know. That would be a LOT better, that way I don't have to spend the money on a new grinder if this one will work. Also, I don't know much about grinders but can I put a 1" wide wheel on a grinder that currently has 3/4" wheels on it? If so, is that the recommended size or should I stick to 3/4?

Your help is VERY much appreciated!
 
Curtis,
A recent post in the Wood Magazine woodturners forum shows that (contrary to popular opinion) "hollow grind curvature" difference between 6" and 8" wheels is insignificant. Some folks prefer a 1750 rpm grinder rather than 3450, as there is less tendency to overheat the tool with a slower grinder. Still doesn't justify buying another grinder. Just take a little extra time.

Check your grinder shaft length. If there is at least 1/4" exposed shaft extending out beyond the nut, you can mount a 1/4" wider wheel. Also check if a wider wheel will fit inside the end cover.

Good advice about the white/pink/blue wheels, but check the shaft diameter before you order. Some are 1/2" and some are 5/8". Hope this helps. Knew you would enjoy a visit with Jimmy and learn a lot.
 
I have a bunch of well-sharpened tools in my carving box, and they "look" a lot different from my lathe tools. It's how they cut, and good enough that win out here.

Sorting through some conventional wisdom:

How hollow the grind makes not a bit of difference to the wood, being an easily compressed medium. Couple people have already mentioned that.

Softer wheels wear away faster. They're not really cooler, because that would defy the laws of physics. Pressure and time in contact are what make heat. 99 44/100% of the time you'll be freshening an edge only, which demands neither much pressure nor time. I like the green SiC wheels myself.

HSS really doesn't really mind high grinding speed, but the mistakes you might make will give worse results faster on a high speed grinder. Low speed is better for your carbon steel tools, but you should keep a really coarse stone on hand for the odd reshaping job. Or use that belt sander, like you do for the mower blades.

What's pretty to look at may not be the best edge to cut with. The opposite is also true, that faceted (horrors!) bevels, as ugly as they look, have nothing to do with the edge, or the cut you make with it. If you're peeling the wood, even a sawtooth edge doesn't make much difference.

I'm a freehand sharpener. I own and use a number of types of turning tools on any one turning, and find it much easier to slip over to the grinder, treat the tool as if I were cutting the stone (A-B-C) using one pass, perhaps two, and back to the turning wire edge and all. It's really the same tactile feedback on the stone that it is on the work as you engage the bevel and swing the handle. Center of my grinder is even at the same height as the centerline of the lathe.

You can spend as much as you like on a grinding jig, just don't let what you spent call your cuts. If you're not getting the angles you want, grind freehand.

On the subject of spending, Oneway balancing kits notwithstanding, if you have room under your washers, you can still trap strips of sheet lead to balance your stones. Worth the effort, for the same reason it's worth it at the lathe.
 
Here is the information that Richard referred to that I had posted on the woodturning forum on Wood Online. People seem to be way overly concerned about how much hollow grind will result from using different sized grinding wheels. the difference is nil and besides, as MichaelMouse pointed out, the wood fibers compress quite easily in the cut.

The difference in concavity achieved on a turning tool bevel between a 6-inch wheel and a 10-inch wheel is generally made out to be a whole lot more than it actually is. As an example, if I were sharpening a ½ inch bowl gouge that had a ¼ inch bevel, the amount of concavity in the bevel would amount to the following:[font=&quot][/font]

  1. Using a 6" grinding wheel, it would be 0.0026 inches
  2. Using an 8" grinding wheel, it would be 0.0019 inches
  3. Using a 10" grinding wheel, it would be 0.0016 inches
The differences between these values are really insignificant compared to the surface irregularity that you might see when coming directly off the wheel before honing.


Bill Boehme
 
For me,
Grinder and tool sharpening is a no brainer. I know that one can make their own and have something that will work for them but what comes with that is trail and error. I want to turn wood not work through trail and error getting a grinding system set up. Grinders generally last forever and wheels last a good long time. Because of this, I picked up a 1750 speed grinder at Wood Craft on sale for 74.99 that came with 2 white wheels. DONE! I got the Oneway grinding system that Jimmy uses and I was on my way. DONE! Time and effort is worth money to me! This hobby costs money to get started. I saved my money and bought the best that I could afford even if I had to save a little longer. P.S. All my equipment is paid for. This is simply my opinion.
Jimmy is a great guy I when I saw your post asking for help I was the person who emailed Jimmy to let him know you were out there and in need of some help. He is usually on another forum. I have flown down to Texas to turn wood with Jimmy on two seperate occasions. He has opened his shop and his home to me. He is the best! Good luck in your decision. VWNW
 
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Vince,

I agree 100% with the general thought of your post. I am usually the same as you and would rather spend my spare time doing something I want to do rather than build a darn jig or fixture. Unfortunately, my wife and I have had a hard time starting our family and we are now going the adoption route. It is going to cost us as much as $25,000 to adopt and we are saving every spare penny to have enough money. Heck, I am even cutting and selling wood turning blanks to try and come up with the money. Based on this, I only have 3 choices...make my own jigs and continue learning to turn, try to sharpen by hand, or give up turning until I can afford to buy the necessary equipment.

I really do not want the unknown element of whether or not I sharpened my tools correctly or if it is my technique so hand sharpening is out. I really want to keep working on it so option 3 is out. That only leaves building my own until I can afford a better system.

Heck, the bowl gouge that Jimmy sharpened for me is already getting dull and needs sharpening. I have stopped trying to turn anything until I can get it sharp again. I don't want to take a chance of messing up the nice bevel by trying to hand sharpen.

Oh BTW, thanks for asking Jimmy to contact me. He was a lot of help!
 
Thanks, Bill. I should have remembered (not likely these days) that it was your post, or looked it up. Did you mention the tool thickness or bevel width that was basis of your calculations?

Curtis, if you really need to save money and are handy in the shop, you can make your own tools. I have been using homemade tools since I started turning, twenty-some years ago. Was not satisfied with the cheap tools that came with my cheap lathe, so made my own. You just need a few tool steel tool bits (with 5% cobalt is good) at 2 bucks each, and a fertile junk pile.

My tools are crude, ugly, easily resharpened in a matter of seconds, and cheap. And they cut very nicely. Have just made a new hollowing tool with a 1/8" tool bit, and working on another with 3/16" tool bit.

It's great for the purists and those who want, and can afford it to have all the best tools. My concern is that you may think you have to have all this expensive stuff in order to do beautiful work. You don't. What you learned from Jimmy works just as well with homemade tools. For example, my "scraper" tools can be used as gouges by "riding the bevel".

Sorry about getting so long-winded. Just some thoughts.
 
Thanks Richard for the advice. Fortunately I have a basic set of Delta turning tools and a pretty descent bowl gouge so that should keep me for a good while. The things I still need are a chuck and sharpening set-up. I know I can do bowls without a chuck since that is the way Jimmy and I did it on my lathe but it takes some fun out of it. I have a Nova Compac that I used on the old Rigid but it is 3/4 x 16 and does not have an insert. I have posted a couple wanted adds on different forums looking for a used chuck but have not had too many offers or they were very old independent jaw systems and I don't really think I want to deal with that.

As I progress in my turning skills I will definitely be making some of my own tools.
 
Texian said:
. . . . . Did you mention the tool thickness or bevel width that was basis of your calculations? . . . . .
Click to expand...
Richard,

Yes, but to elaborate, my results are based on having a bevel length of 1/4 inch such as you might have on a half-inch bowl gouge with a swept back grind and a 65 degree bevel angle at the front.

One of the methods for calculating the depth of the hollow grind arc is to solve a right triangle problem in which the hypotenuse is the radius, the base is one-half the chord length (or half the bevel, 1/8" in this case), and the height is to be determined. The depth of the hollow grind is then the difference between the hypotenuse and the height.

A visually more satisfying solution, which I also did, is to solve the problem graphically using a CAD program which will yield the same results along with a visualization of how small the hollow grind actually is.

Bill
 
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boehme said:
One of the methods for calculating the depth of the hollow grind arc is to solve a right triangle problem in which the hypotenuse is the radius, the base is one-half the chord length (or half the bevel, 1/8" in this case), and the height is to be determined. The depth of the hollow grind is then the difference between the hypotenuse and the height.

A visually more satisfying solution, which I also did, is to solve the problem graphically using a CAD program which will yield the same results along with a visualization of how small the hollow grind actually is.
Click to expand...

Or, you could try http://www.delorie.com/wood/chord-radius.html or the excel worksheet which calculates the same.

In any case, you'll discover that this, as many other treasured and oft-repeated bits of "expert" advice or wisdom, isn't valid. There are even people who don't grind bevels on some tools, figuring that they will be used on concave surfaces anyway, which favors a convex grind.

When you couple this knowledge with the multitude of grinds and jigs, it begins to dawn on you that there might be many ways to flay the feline.
 
I built the vari-grind rig from the drawings provided by Jean Michel and I have been very pleased with the results. It was not difficult or time consuming to do and my gouges (and work) are better for it.

DGD
 
MesquiteMan,

I feel your pain about sharpening. I am trying to get back into turning, and I realized that I have never sharpened my tools. So that is step #1. Hopefully we can both come up with something.

By the way, I think it is wonderful that you and your wife are adopting a child. That is terriffic!!! 🙂

Andrew
 
Andrew,

Thanks for the encouraging comments on the adoption. We are excited and can't wait.

This past weekend I welded up a jig basically the same as a wolverine. I will try to take pictures to post here in the next day or so. It works great and didn't cost me much at all. If you can weld, that is definatly the way to go. I decided to order the Vari-grind jig for my bowl gouges rather than try to come up with one on my own.
 
Curtis,

Am dismayed that you are not turning for lack of an expensive sharpening system. Build your own from plans available or referenced from this forum.

There is an alternative. Best I can tell, home-made tools are heresy among members of this forum and others. They are crude, ugly, cheap, easy to make, and cut just like the expensive tools. And they re-sharpen in a few seconds on an ordinary grinder with an ordinary tool rest. Materials are; a length of ½†pipe, a ¼-20 set screw, and a ¼†HSS tool bit ($1.95).

Understood that toolmakers may support this forum and/or other forums, and I appreciate that support. My point is that some of us will never be able to justify the purchase of beautiful $60 or $100 gouges, but we can still turn wood with HSS tools.

Just some thoughts.
 
Richard - ya got us wrong! I make and use my own tools. I even posted some of the toolrests I made and there was a long discussion about it. (search on "toolrest").

Tool vendors do not support this forum. The forum is directly sponsored by the AAW and is 100% nonprofit.

I encourage people to make their own tools, jigs, and other gadgets. It's part of the fun of woodturning. If you end up doing a whole lot of turning like me, some items are worth purchasing. Just my opinion - but the bowl gouges I have bought were designed well and there was no way that homemade gouges would have been better.

And some other tools may be easier to make - like scrapers and hollowing tools. The AW Journal has had a few tool making articles just in the last 6 issues. Plus homemade hollowing systems and other jigs are also fun to make.

Tool Making Video:
Stacey Hager and Frank Miller just recently made a video on how to make a point tool. It was listed in the the Fall AW Journal and is an excellent video. It is downloadable for free from the the AAW website here
Doesn't get any better than that! Plus they are both from Austin, Texas which is an awesome place to live. I might be a bit biased on this last point. :cool2:
 
Jeff,

Your points are well taken, understood, and mostly agreed with. Will try to see the video tomorrow (have slow, cheap, dial-up connection). I would love to compare the performance of a really nice gouge to my own crude stuff, but can't justify the purchase just for that. Also unlikely that someone will loan me an expensive gouge and sharpening jig for a month, just so I can experiment and probably mess up their gouge.

Austin is very cool, and/but the traffic is worse every time I visit. Thanks for your response.
 
Richard, Don't be so sure that you can't use someone else's tools.

If you visit the local chapter's meeting, you can probably get yourself invited to a more experienced turners shop. Most are very generous of their time and equipment, and usually have older tools that they can use to teach you how to grind. Most will let you turn with their best tools, but might not let you put them to the grinder. How do you think I learned? I wouldn't be anywhere near where I am after only 3 1/2 months of woodturning without help from others. I am not an expert by any means, but I am now sharing what I do know with others.

Think positive!

JimQ
 
Jeff,

Am sure I responded to your post, but it must be lost on my hard-drive somewhere and never got sent to the forum.

Anyhow, I did not mean to imply that this forum receives clandestine contributions from the tool makers.

Of necessity I make my own tools, jigs, fixtures, and the like, and it is nearly as much fun and as satisfying as the wood turning. But of course not everyone feels the same way. Certainly I could not make a gouge the equal of fine, commercially available tools, but remain unconvinced that they cut any better than what I have.

Maybe one of these days I'll make it back to Austin and visit Jimmy T. and/or others and learn the "truth about gouges" for myself. Have been there a time or three and agree that it's a very cool city and splendid surrounding area.

That's strange. There's my other post below in something called "Topic Review". And a post from JimQ. Thanks Jim. Looks like I need training in use of this forum as well as use of the gouge.
 
The traffic here can indeed be pretty dreadful. It seems that the roads are basically 3-4 years behind the traffic patterns.

For the point tool video, Frank Miller specifically reduced the size of the video at my request. I think a lot of woodturners are on dial-up. While it may take awhile to download, it is a worthwhile video. Maybe you can dial-in some night before you go to bed and then start the download. I'm not exactly sure how long it will take to download.

And on using the forum, you can always edit your own postings. Or you can delete accidental duplicate postings. I like the editing feature since it allows me to correct typos and wording mistakes.......I mean that hypothetically of course. :cool2:
 
Jeff,

You mean you thought you made a mistake once, but you were wrong?

Found my forum problem. Needed to be in linear "display mode" with everything in a simple, straight line. Could not find where to delete my second post after I found the first one. Has to be there somewhere.
 
Richard, come on over

You are welcome to come to my shop and we will use my/your tools. At the present time I am very busy getting ready for Budafest next weekend, Dec 3 & 4 in Buda Texas. Johnny and I will have our turnings there for sale.

Remember from the other Forum, I am the smart, good looking kinder, older Tolly
I work Thr, Fri, Sat and every other Wed 6 am - 6 pm so those other days, Sun, Mon, Tue and that confusing every other Wed I have off to do other things like Honey- do's, Daughter- do's, other daughter- do's, widow Karen- do's, widow Sharon- do's, my ranch-do's and yes even my favorite WOODTURNING

Now that gas has dropped to $2.10 the trip over may not "bust" your budget to bad {😱)

Let me know if/when you are thinking about so we can make plans?

Jimmy
 
Ok...

so I watched the video, but Stacey doesn't show how to make the tool.. Only how to use it.

I'm going to assume that he turns the handle himself, mounts a ferrule, and then places a pre-made 3/8 or 1/4 HSS round tool blank in this and grinds it to a certain angle.

Where do you get these HSS blanks?

I'm into making jigs and tools, and even machines almost as much or more than I'm into the turning.
 
The point tool is pretty easy to make. Just take a round blank and grind 3 faces on the grinder. The description of how to make it is on page 32 of the Fall AW Journal.

Also I found where I had posted how to make toolrest. In addition Art Ranson posted a tip about his homemade rests - and there are a lot of other toolmaking tips on his website. That thread is here in the Tips/Techniques subforum.
 
Point Tool

Jim, Grizzly has round tool bits on p. 518, and Bill B. where do you get your 3/8" HSS rod stock?

Jeff, Finally saw the video too. Was asleep during most of the 3-hr. download plus 2 more hrs. to upgrade my media player so I could see as well as hear it. Well worth it, as I could not fully grasp what was happening from just the narrative and sound of wood being turned. It's a neat tool and I want to make one (I needed it tonight), if you would just please tell us at what angle (as measured from tool axis or plane perp. to tool axis?) the three "facets" are ground. Thanks.

Your tool rests are very cool! For those of us with 5/8" tool post diameter, consider a long 5/8" bolt as material source.
 
Additional Point Tool Info Source

Texian said:
It's a neat tool and I want to make one (I needed it tonight), if you would just please tell us at what angle (as measured from tool axis or plane perp. to tool axis?) the three "facets" are ground. Thanks.

Your tool rests are very cool! For those of us with 5/8" tool post diameter, consider a long 5/8" bolt as material source.
Click to expand...

Texian,

Here is another web site with point tool info. The way he uses the handle to gauge the grinding of the point is interesting. The article in the AAW magazine on page 32 of the fall issue has good information on the angle of the point. The url below also has some good angle information.

http://www.davidreedsmith.com/Articles/PyramidPointTool/PyramidPointTool.htm

Thanks for the tip on 5/8 shaft for tool post using a long 5/8 bolt.

Clem
 
Thanks, Clem!

Apparently the angle of choice is 45 degrees.

I used a 5/8 bolt as starting point for home-made open segment fixture. It spoke to me from the junk pile ("Use me.").
 
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