My New SRG

[Ed_McDonnell]

I didn't want to hijack Charlies Thread so I'm starting a new one.

After reading Doug's comments on SRGs, considering the time I would have to wait for a Thompson SRG, and the price difference I ordered a P&N SRG. I just received it today.

Couple initial observations.

There are a lot of milling marks inside the flute both sides and bottom. I would be happier with a better finish, but I can live with it. I had been warned about this by many of you, so no complaints on my part. Just confirming your inputs.

I was really surprised to find out that the flute had not been milled in the center of the tool. The wall is noticeably thicker on one side of the flute than the other. Approx 0.198" vs 0.163" + or - depending on where I measure. I can't believe this was an intentional design. How hard could it be to mill down the center of a bar? Finding center is a pretty basic skill for any machinist. Makes me wonder about the quality of the other processes involved in making this tool. The bevel is going to look kind of funny, but is there any reason I'm going to regret using this tool with the flute off center?

The tool was not sharpened when I received it. I would go so far as to say it wan't even really shaped. Frankly it looked like they dragged it behind a truck to establish a bevel after milling the flute (offcenter). The end of the tool wasn't even square to the tool. Left side stuck out about an 1/8 of an inch more than the right. Almost like a skew. I'm not the most experienced turner in the room by a long shot, but this doesn't seem right to me. I'm grinding it square, but if there is a reason for a "skewed" SRG, please inform me.

I got good advice to go with the Thompson skew, but I was in a hurry and wanted to save a buck(s). Hope I don't end up really regretting my decision. Once I get the thing sharpened and take it for a drive I'll report back.

Ed

 

[Odie]

Hi Ed......

If you can manage a photo, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see.......

thanx

otis of cologne

 

[MichaelMouse]

There are a lot of milling marks inside the flute both sides and bottom. I would be happier with a better finish, but I can live with it. I had been warned about this by many of you, so no complaints on my part. Just confirming your inputs.

The problem, as you know, is that these affect every edge you try to put on the tool. They do not belong there. You'll want a good slip to clean up any interior irregularities before they become interruptions in your edge, just like those ground by a piece of sand from the bevel side, which send you back to the grinder.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Ed, the orginal thread was your

My New 2 Piece Roughing Gouge

my reaction to the thread was to examine my SRG and order a new one, somehow i ended up with a different tool

i would also like a picture of your new spindle roughing gouge from P&N

 

[Richard Baker]

Ed,
I am surely no expert on the subject, but that tool sounds like a reject to me. You might consider returning it whence it came.

 

[robo hippy]

I agree that it sounds like a return to me. It shouldn't be that out of whack. Call whoever you got it from, and talk to them. Actually, the wait for a Thompson tool is worth it to me.
robo hippy

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

I got rid of the skewed edge and sharpened it, but another issue popped up.

The sides of the flute are flat and make a very abrupt transition to the round bottom of the flute. I would have expected a smooth transition from the flat side to the curved bottom of the flute. Maybe I have unrealistic expectations. I'll try calling the vendor to talk it over.

Using a jig (either wolvering or tormek) to sharpen this results in a bevel (dimple, dent,not sure of the right word) in the cutting edge where the flat side of flute abruptly meets the curved bottom of the flute.

Here's some pictures. I'm not sure how well they show things. It's late and I'll try for better pictures tomorrow if these don't show stuff.

Ed

 

[MichaelMouse]

Didn't waste much time fixing the flute, did they? As you noticed, your edge is notched at both of those points significantly enough to show in the picture. The longitudinal millmarks also create notches in your edge which are probably the equivalent of grinding on a 30 grit.

Sure do appreciate my forged Sorby more after looking at the beginner-proof models, and hope that the rush to cater to the liability attorneys doesn't take it from the market. When my flat section forged gouges got too short in the tooth I couldn't find replacements until LV picked them up. Don't intend to wait that long to replace the Big Kahuna.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

thanks for the pictures, i would be interested what you and the vendor agree on

 

[Odie]

The bevel is going to look kind of funny, but is there any reason I'm going to regret using this tool with the flute off center?

Yes, I think I wouldn't be happy with that either, Ed.......

As to your question, I can only visualize what the bevel will look like, but my best guess is it will be longer on one side than the other......that is, if the profile of the cutting edge is to match on both sides. Will it be problematic? There again, I can only give my mental picture of it, but there are times when you might want to "roll" the tool into a cut.......I can visualize an unforeseen change in the cut if the roll happens to meet the tool rest where it wouldn't have on the other side.

Thanks for showing us the photos.

I don't have any P&N's, but that plainly ain't right.....and will be sure to watch closely what I get, if I do.

otis of cologne

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Didn't waste much time fixing the flute, did they? ... Sure do appreciate my forged Sorby ....

I now have a much better understanding of the difference between forging and "milling". My expectation of a milled flute was one that was precisely machined on a milling machine using a cutter that would give a flute with smooth transitions from where the flat sides meet the bottom curve. Foolish me.

The P&N actually appears to have a ground flute. They must have a grinding wheel (very low grit) that they rounded over just enough to be able to call it rounded (not enough to make a smooth transition between the curve and the straight sides of the wheel). I would guess that they try to squeeze as many tools out of each wheel as they can. Profits over quality.

I would have thought that they would have a machine set up to do the grinding so the "flute" would at least be centered. Looking at my tool, I don't think so. My tool looks like it was hand gournd. Somebody just eyeballed center while holding the tool in their hands and started grinding. Offcenter a little? No big deal. Cocked it a little while grinding. No big deal.

Maybe I just have unrealistic expectations of what a non-forged SRG should look like. How does a Thompson SRG compare to the pictures I posted? If it isn't a whole lot better I'm going back to a forged SRG. Mabye that's what I should have done anyway, since I now know enough to not abuse my SRG.

Ed

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

thanks for the pictures, i would be interested what you and the vendor agree on

I'll let you know.

Ed

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

I had a chance to test drive my new P&N SRG this morning.

It's sold as a spindle ROUGHING gouge and that's what it does. It effectively removes square corners and rough edges from turning stock. It's not capable of anything more, but it's not sold as a tool that is intended to do anything more. If you want anything approaching a finished surface, you must switch to another tool after you are done "roughing".

It's not a a pretty tool. In my opinion it's not even a skillfully made tool. But it appears to be a functional tool (when used solely for what it was intended). I would never show this tool to anyone as an example of fine craftsmanship that is capable of instilling pride of ownership. At half the price I would be content to say "well, it works". At full price I find myself saying "I expected more."

In summary: I would never recommend this tool to anyone. I would never return this tool to a vendor if there was even the slightest chance it would be sold to someone else. I couldn't live with that. The P&N SRG will be relegated to dealing with the worst of the worst that comes into my shop. It will probably spend most of it's life sitting in a drawer. I don't even consider it worthy of a spot on my tool rack.

I still plan to talk to the vendor on Monday, even if it's only to give them feedback on what I think about the tool.

Ed

 

[MichaelMouse]

It's sold as a spindle ROUGHING gouge and that's what it does. It effectively removes square corners and rough edges from turning stock. It's not capable of anything more, but it's not sold as a tool that is intended to do anything more. If you want anything approaching a finished surface, you must switch to another tool after you are done "roughing".

Y'think? Looks like a fairly good result to me. I know I go on to about 150-220 from a reasonable run with the rougher. If I can, anyone can.

 

[Doug Thompson]

I'm sorry I recomended this gouge... I thought the quality was better.

 

[Bill Boehme]

After looking at your pictures, especially the cross-section view that shows the upper edges being rather straight, I think there is another way to look at the design which could be of some consolation. The tool does have a complete and seemingly semicircular cross section, so the straight parts at the top can be thought of as a part of the tool that adds stiffness in a location that does not seem to interfere with its function. The upper straight part could even be rounded back slightly without leading to any problem since it would be a part of the tool that is not used. If you compare this tool to another one of the same width that is made by rolling a piece of flat steel, I suspect that the amount of actual cutting edge would be about the same -- the only difference being some additional reinforcement at the top edge of the P&N.

When the world gives you lemons: Make lemonade.

 

[GeorgeH]

This post, "My New SRG", has been very useful. I just Googled for prices on the Thompson SRG and nearly fell out of my chair. My P&N SRG, which I find to be well made and a pleasure to use, didn't cost a third of what I find the Thompson listed for. Thanks for initiating this conversation.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

... My P&N SRG, which I find to be well made and a pleasure to use...

George - Does yours look anything like what I described and some of what I showed in the pictures. Flute offcenter. Sharp angle in the flute where the straight side meets the curved bottom? Was yours skewed when you got it? (One side of the flute stuck out further than the other so the front of the tool isn't square to the tool?)

Looks like P&N was acquired by Sutton sometime recently? Maybe the new owners have a different philosophy on profit versus quality? Maybe I just got a turkey that slipped through quality control. Maybe mine is representative of current production quality??

I used to be able to take a pen blank from square to finished (with easy woods) with my old cheap chinese SRG and I would be able to start sanding at 400. Not going to happen with this one. That's life. I'll adapt. And I can definitely use the extra exercise walking over to the tool rack to change tools. (How's that for lemonade?)

Ed


PS George, if you bought your SRG a a while ago you can't really compare to prices now. The decline of the dollar makes everything incredibly more expensive now. I'm just glad I don't need a new lathe!!!!

 

[Doug Thompson]

Ed, the sale of P&N might have something to do with it, I don't know. Cost is the reason I don't recomend my SRG... 1/3 of the cost doesn't pay for the steel blank let alone the tooling, heat treating, etc.

 

[john lucas]

I don't own a P@N but have looked at them several times and recommended them to friends. I don't remember any looking like your tool. I hope that isn't a trend for them or they will shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Ed, the sale of P&N might have something to do with it, I don't know. Cost is the reason I don't recomend my SRG... 1/3 of the cost doesn't pay for the steel blank let alone the tooling, heat treating, etc.

Doug - I figured that was the reason for your recommendation and why you didn't have your SRG right out front on your website. Considering the other tools I've gotten from you (and your guarantee) I'm sure yours is worth the price for anybody that needs a tool with robust specifications.

Ed

 

[mr bill]

I happen to own one of the few 3/4" SRG the Doug Thompson has made. I did have to send pictures of what I wanted and wait for him to build it. The final product was exactly what I wanted and it works like no other tool I have. I will say that the flute was minutely off center but I have seen no issues from this whatsoever.

 

[Doug Thompson]

I happen to own one of the few 3/4" SRG the Doug Thompson has made. I did have to send pictures of what I wanted and wait for him to build it. The final product was exactly what I wanted and it works like no other tool I have. I will say that the flute was minutely off center but I have seen no issues from this whatsoever.

That 3/4 SRG is one of three made a while ago, Mark StLeger wants a 5/8 SRG made so the plan is to manufacture 5/8 - 1-1/4 SRG's. I did buy a 20 year old mill that should be delivered around Christmas, this one machine will increase production by 30% or more... just wait for the surprises next summer. The surprise will be not seeing a sold out sign 😀😀😀 but the list will get longer.

 

[Dave Peebles]

Hello Ed,

Sorry I am so late on this topic. I have owned the P&N spindle roughing gouge. I bought mine several years ago. It looked nothing like the one you have. The flute was smooth and it was milled right down the center. It also did not have the strange flats you show in the pics. It had a smooth radius all the way around the flute. Mine was the 1-1/4" or 32 mm.

I recently sold it to a turning friend of mine. I found I did not use it much for the work I currently do. But it was a good tool.

It appears to me that you got a bad one. That may be due to the change in ownership, or a bad one just happened to sneak through.

Either way, If it were mine, I would return it for a refund. It is my feeling that if the maker does not hear from us. They will continue to make the same quality of tools. Woodturners are a small group in the overall population. But our voice can be very loud to the tool makers in this internet age.

But, this is just my humble opinion. 🙂

Best wishes,
Dave

 

[GeorgeH]

George - Does yours look anything like what I described and some of what I showed in the pictures. ... if you bought your SRG a while ago you can't really compare to prices now. The decline of the dollar makes everything incredibly more expensive now. I'm just glad I don't need a new lathe!!!!

Your point about price changes over time is a good one. I hadn't taken that into consideration. My P&N was on sale at Woodcraft for $45 (that was about a year and a half ago and did not include a handle) and today I see it's at $74.95 - although that's not a sale price.
The P&N flute was precisely centered and angled at nearly a perfect 45 degrees and square across the cutting edge face.

 

[hughie]

Ed,

RE the P&N gouge, if your able take it back. This is not the standard that they should be making, nor should you or anybody else have to put up with it.

If had happened to me, down here in Oz I would be hot footed over to see them and demanded a replacement.

Some body has slipped up in QA.

 

[rsser]

The quality of P&N is inconsistent, both within a model and across models. My teacher had an old SRG and it had worse milling marks than yours Ed.

I had a 17mm SupaGouge - milling marks distinct, bit of a transition to the bottom; v. ordinary flute shape

3/16" and 1/4" bowl gouges - fine as far as milling goes; bit of a transition but can be adressed with grinding technique; very handy tools

Detail gouge - fine all round (cough).

A friend bought a whole bunch of P&N off ebay ... all old but unused. There was a flaw in the rod of one tool, he rang P&N here in Oz (where he lives) and had a rep come out and swap it for a new one within a week.

BTW, you should be seeing prices drop I would hope. The AUD has gone down the toilet relative to USD.

Though I'm told P&N source their steel in Europe so there's another influence on prices.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Just heard from the vendor this morning.

The whole batch of tools they received from P&N were not made correctly and they are expecting replacements from P&N.

I'll post pictures of what I get as a replacement, when I get it.

Ed

 

[rsser]

Good news.

Some body has slipped up in QA.

And esp. in QC.

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Latest Update

I was pleasantly surprised to find a new P&N SRG waiting for me when I arrived home yesterday. P&N replaced the bad lot of tools for the vendor and the vendor promptly sent me a new one. I didn't even have to return the old defective tool.

I haven't had a chance to take a picture yet, but this tools looks exactly like what I had originally expected. I'm satisfied. I'll post pictures when I get a chance to get the camera out.

Ed

 

[salgoud]

I have never had this problem to happen to me but I always bought my turnng tools where I could see them before I made the purchase.

After looking at the photos I can honestly say the tool you have was not made very well but if it didn't cost much then you got what you paid for and can be made to work or at least as a roughing tool. Otherwise I think I would have return it as unsuitable.

I am or was a tool and die maker and a manufacturing engineer but retired now. 😱

 

[Ed_McDonnell]

Finally getting around to posting some pictures of the new tool. Much improved over the first one I got and pretty much what I had expected to receive. The pictures are of the tool as received.

Ed