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My New 2 Piece Roughing Gouge

E

Ed_McDonnell

Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
643
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Location
Central Florida
So there I am stripping the sapwood off a round piece of Mahogany because I just wanted heart wood. No pounding, not hogging off big thick curls, just skimming off nice long ribbons and enjoying watching them peel off and shoot away.

The tool was extended less than a half inch over the tool rest. All of a sudden I hear a little "tink" and I'm holding two pieces of tool instead of one. No excitement, no metal spears flying across the shop in search of warm flesh to embed in, no big bang. Just a little "tink" and it was broken at the tang. I didn't even realize what happened at first because it kept cutting just fine, but it sure felt funny having my hands move independently all of a sudden.

This was a cheap chinese tool that I bought as part of a set at woodcraft when I first started turning. I really had no complaints and was pretty happy with how it performed (it's the only tool of the set that I kept past the first year of turning).

Anyway, I'm in the market for a new Spindle Roughing Gouge. Anyone buy a roughing gouge lately? The tangs on the Henry Taylor tools don't look very beefy. The Sorby tool looks OK, but nothing special. The P&N roughing gouge looked really interesting since it has a large round tang with a tapered based that looks pretty indestructible. Another plus is the P&N tool comes unhandled and I like making my own handles.

Anyone have any opinions or suggestions that you are willing to share?

Ed
 
The P&N is milled out of rod rather than forged which gives it good heft.

But a lot of P&N flutes that I've seen have coarse milling marks left so you may need to do some heavy honing work to polish them out. Or not, if you only want it for rough roughing 🙄

Some turners I know 😱 use their roughing gouge to plane cylinders from time to time, right down to pen barrels, in which case a clean edge is mandatory.
 
These are the two best SRG:
The top is Thompson; the bottom is P&N.
The Thompson has 3/4" shank, and for some reason the p&N is reduced to 1/2".
It seems Doug can't keep up with the supply of his SRG; it is always back ordered.
 

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Hi Ern - Thanks for the feedback on the P&N. I've been known to on occasion be too lazy to walk over to the tool rack and switch the roughing gouge for a spindle gouge when making pens out of easy wood like Mahogany. I would definitely prefer a well finished tool.

Ed
 
Hi Gordon - Thanks for the response. I had looked for a SRG on Doug's website and I didn't see them. I'll have to take another look. Of course if they are always back-ordered it won't do me a lot of good.

How have you found the flute finish on the P&N. Have you seen the coarse milling marks that Ern described?

Ed
 
Gordon - Thanks. I should have asked in the previous post, but how does the finish on the Thompson SRG look? Considering other tools I've gotten from him I would expect it to be pretty good.

I found the SRG on his website. $175. Wow!! I guess you have to look at it as a lifetime investment.

Ed
 
Srg ????????

how does the Hamlet ASP series spindle roughing gouges stand up to Doug Thompson's SRGs. the ASP2030 while only 3/4" across are quite a bit less expensive, they look to also have 1/2 shank

are the hamlet handmade like Doug Thompson tool?
 
Nick - Fortunately the garbage isn't picked up until Monday so I was able to dig it out. The red / orange junk all over it is Mahogany Juice, not rust. Didn't bother cleaning it this time for obvious reasons.


The break area looks like what I would expect to see in wrought iron, not tool steel.

Ed
 

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Hmm, didn't know the Thompson was milled as well. Nice.

I have a Thompson bowl gouge and the milling marks are visible but minor. Not in the same league as Sorby or Henry Taylor though who triple polish their flutes. That said IMO Sorby steel is not as good as it used to be. HT have maintained their standards. (Referring to basic M2 here). (K, rambling over).
 
Ed,

The Thompson has some even mill marks; slightly less than Crown & Sorby SRG.

Thompson Tools is a one man operation and still in infancy. He keeps experimenting new ways to produce better tools. He told me several months ago, he found a new way to polish his tools. I haven't bought any new tools from him lately; I don't know how they look like. You have nothing to lose; if it doesn't meet your standard, Dough will buy it back.

We belong to the same Clubs. Our Club members were his guinea pigs early on. He made improvements based on our feed backs. Most of us chose not to give back his testing tools and bought them instead. I have some of his early production tools that are different than current production, such as the shanks are over sized and won't fit some metal handles.
 
Srg

I have a 3/4 inch Crown ProPM (Black Handle) SRG. Very nice. I will eventually replace it. When it wears out.

John 🙂
 
This proves ALL tools can break and this is another reason to wear safety glasses.

The SRG I tell everyone to get is the P&N because it's a good tool and it has a shank for strength, a tang on a SRG is the weak point. I put a 3/4 inch shank on it because that's the way it should be, that alone creates a tool the doesn't vibrate and it's so strong a few guys in Canada rough the outside of bowls with this tool. If you turn spindles everyday or rough the outside of bowls like Bill Neddow (Canada) then spend the extra money, if not get the P&N.

I will mill more SRG's due Jan-Feb, if you want one send a email to me and I'll notify you when they are done, most of the time they never hit the site. I did buy another mill that should increase production 30% but it won't be here until Christmas. A batch of round stock will be done in 2 weeks then skews/scrapers a few weeks after that.

The U shape flute is tough to clean up, the radius at the bottom is where most of the cutting is done is easy but the sides are almost impossible without distorting the flute shape. A11 is the worst steel I've ever milled, it won't cut clean because it's so gummy that means every surface must be ground after milling. M2 and other HSS cut clean so there is no need to grind.
 
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From the compression damage, you gave it quite a blow. Did the crack in the handle happen with the same smack? Have you bent it and straightened in the past to fatigue the metal?

Since I use my rougher at mostly at 50-90 degrees to the way you snapped that one, I oppose a lot more metal to the turning. I also use an overhand grip, in spite of the "hand removed for clarity" clip posted in the other thread. That, and cutting above center keeps me from lifting the gouge off the rest and under the wood.

The author of the article that originated the tang anxiety business has a clip on you tube which explains why he would have trouble with the tool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuGMZ3SBlYs Nary a shaving even when his piece is cylindrical, and an entry angle that begs for an overfeed and catch.
 
rsser said:
That said IMO Sorby steel is not as good as it used to be.
Click to expand...

Hey rsser.....

Just wondering what it is that made you to come to this conclusion......not holding an edge as well as they used to?

otis of cologne
 
Ed_McDonnell said:
So there I am stripping the sapwood off a round piece of Mahogany because I just wanted heart wood. No pounding, not hogging off big thick curls, just skimming off nice long ribbons and enjoying watching them peel off and shoot away.

The tool was extended less than a half inch over the tool rest. All of a sudden I hear a little "tink" and I'm holding two pieces of tool instead of one. No excitement, no metal spears flying across the shop in search of warm flesh to embed in, no big bang. Just a little "tink" and it was broken at the tang. I didn't even realize what happened at first because it kept cutting just fine, but it sure felt funny having my hands move independently all of a sudden.

This was a cheap chinese tool that I bought as part of a set at woodcraft when I first started turning. I really had no complaints and was pretty happy with how it performed (it's the only tool of the set that I kept past the first year of turning).


Ed
Click to expand...

Howdy Ed.....

As you've described it, it really is difficult for me to imagine that anything you did was the cause of the failure. It'd have to be a very severe catch to do something like that.

Since it was an inexpensive tool to begin with, I suspect the quality of the steel.....maybe a bad batch of raw steel, or some sort of imperfection in your particular tool.

otis of cologne
 
Hi Michael -

From the compression damage, you gave it quite a blow.
Not recently. I was just doing smooth easy cuts when it broke. I've thunked through my share of out of round wood in the past, but I had spent the whole day removing sapwood from mahogany logs with no thunks at all.

Did the crack in the handle happen with the same smack?
I didn't even know the crack was there. You need a magnifying glass (or macro lens) to see it. Might been there the whole time I owned it for all I know.

Have you bent it and straightened in the past to fatigue the metal?
Nope. I've never even come close to abusing it to the point where it might have bent and I sure wouldn't try to salvage it if I had.


I had beautiful continuous streams of shavings shooting out and no catches or scraping.

Ed
 
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Howdy Back Odie - I'm puzzled too. The tool had seen a lot of use over the years (almost daily use) and maybe the stress accumulated over time. I suspect that the cheap steel or a manufacturing flaw might have contributed as well. But that's just a guess. Maybe there was too much melamine in the alloy at the point of breakage.😀

Ed
 
Five or six years ago I had the same thing happen to an almost new Crown "heavy" bowl scraper. It broke in the same place without my having a catch or doing anything aggressive. The steel was spun around in the bowl I was working on and hit the back of my hand without doing any real damage (other than to my calm attitude!). I've not really used scrapers for anything since.

I've had a large Crown SRG for eight or so years that has served me very well and is one of my favorite tools. If I got around to getting another, it'd be the same size but maybe a 2030 steel. My favorite bowl gouges are that and I like how it sharpens and hones. 2060 or any of the really hard steel doesn't hone that easily, but will stay sharp a bit longer.
 
That looks like a specific type of fracture. Am inclined to think that the tool had an invisible (to the unaided eye) crack that happened during the manufacturer's heat treat process. The crack propagated through the tool due to metal fatigue until the remaining sound metal became too little to withstand even relatively minor stress. But it's been almost a half century since Metallurgy 101, so maybe not.
 
Texian said:
That looks like a specific type of fracture. Am inclined to think that the tool had an invisible (to the unaided eye) crack that happened during the manufacturer's heat treat process. The crack propagated through the tool due to metal fatigue until the remaining sound metal became too little to withstand even relatively minor stress. But it's been almost a half century since Metallurgy 101, so maybe not.
Click to expand...

I agree. Although I am an electrical engineer, I have worked with engineers in the failure analysis lab who did analysis of failures in metals and have some familiarity with the subject. Also from the middle image, even though it is a bit out of focus, it appears that the quality of the steel is poor and not homogeneous based on the texture. once a fracture develops, stresses become concentrated along the crack which then accelerates propagation of the fatigue failure.
 
This whole thread points out a weakness in most spindle roughing gouges that should be addressed by manufacturers. As a matter of fact, most of the gouges out there should be banned for safety reasons. The tang is way too small for use even as a spindle gouge. I have seen multiple spindle roughing gouges bent or broken when used as recommended -- on spindles. The AAW ran a campaign to get manufacturers to warn buyers not to use these tools on bowls. This is good as far as it goes -- but is like telling smokers they should only smoke "lite" cigarettes. Let's fix the real problem -- the weak tangs. Both Doug Thompson and P&N have addressed this problem and have proven that it can be fixed in a cost-effective manner. But, I suspect the manufacturers will continue to ignore the problem as long as people keep buying their badly-designed tools.
 
Basically I would say its a hardness problem...mainly too much in the wrong place.

You dont really need all that much hardness at the tang end as you would require at the cutting edge.

This is the art of the toolmaker knowing how much and where it should be.With lower priced mass produced tools this sort of problem will be common. There is no time for any serious quality.

As Thomas Jefferson said "Quality comes about by intelligent effort"....
 
BNeddow said:
This whole thread points out a weakness in most spindle roughing gouges that should be addressed by manufacturers. As a matter of fact, most of the gouges out there should be banned for safety reasons. The tang is way too small for use even as a spindle gouge. I have seen multiple spindle roughing gouges bent or broken when used as recommended -- on spindles. The AAW ran a campaign to get manufacturers to warn buyers not to use these tools on bowls. This is good as far as it goes -- but is like telling smokers they should only smoke "lite" cigarettes. Let's fix the real problem -- the weak tangs. Both Doug Thompson and P&N have addressed this problem and have proven that it can be fixed in a cost-effective manner. But, I suspect the manufacturers will continue to ignore the problem as long as people keep buying their badly-designed tools.
Click to expand...

No, the problem is we have too many people who take up turning without any knowledge, actual or vicarious. The days when turners already knew something about how to make and use an edge before they took a tool to spinning work are gone. We may proclaim our holy wars and revise our nomenclature and blame the "big guys" all we want, but the simple answer is the turners are screwing up. Used to be we'd say life lesson and go on, but that's not the way in a world of whiners. We seem to look for the nanny, or the nanny state, to make things idiot-proof, without naming the real idiots.

When you look at the fine photos provided for this incident, it's obvious the tool has been abused. Third picture, upper section shows compression damage to the metal and the handle which indicates by its direction that the tool was hit very hard - hard enough to compress quarter-grain wood take a permanent crush, while being used flute up, an angle only used in most turning for bottoming a cove, and especially ill-advised when the tool has a broad section to engage with the wood. This may be the way some famous name uses the tool, as in the youtube clip, but it's not the way to use an edge to make a clean, thus low strain cut in wood.

Nor was it, as Ed said, much of a gouge to begin with. The crude casting says as much, even if he had not. It also appears to be a milled flute rather than forged, another sign of cheap. No comments on the corrosion, other than to mention that there does not appear to be any on the broken pieces to indicate there was a crack to wick in the cause of the corrosion. He doesn't mention the alleged alloy and hardening method, but smart money might bet that it's not a standard one.

No ban on tools of a type - which are the choice of the individuals - should use a poorly used bad tool as an example. The lesson here is how even poor tools in inexperienced hands can do an awful lot, but not everything, before they reach their limit.
 
It looks to me that in the third photo, (the gouge is upside down) the texture of the metal indicates the gouge experienced an overload at some point that fractured the tang about 40 percent of its section. This is the more coarse texture. From then on, the fracture continued to grow with use, fracturing a bit more with each loading and unloading cycle. This portion of the fracture has a smoother texture. The unfractured section eventually became small enough that the tang failed from normal use.

In the other photos, the radius as the transition between flute and tang appears to have a tight section, or perhaps even a notch at the origination point of the fracture. This is probably a contributing factor to the initial fracture.

Later,
Dale M
 
Quote from MichaelMouse
No, the problem is we have too many people who take up turning without any knowledge, actual or vicarious. The days when turners already knew something about how to make and use an edge before they took a tool to spinning work are gone. We may proclaim our holy wars and revise our nomenclature and blame the "big guys" all we want, but the simple answer is the turners are screwing up. Used to be we'd say life lesson and go on, but that's not the way in a world of whiners. We seem to look for the nanny, or the nanny state, to make things idiot-proof, without naming the real idiots.

Michael, if you follow that argument to its natural conclusion, then there should be no safety restrictions or regulations on anything. And turners should be experts on the use of their tools before they turn on the lathe. That is not going to happen, so we have to deal with real life situations. Would you really want to buy electrical appliances that do not have to comply with a safety code? If so, I hope you have good fire insurance.
 
MichaelMouse (who may be getting a little testy) wrote:

it's obvious the tool has been abused

I can't deny that. It was my first roughing gouge and it's real possible it was subjected to excessive trauma at some point the first couple of months. I would have expected it to fail then though. Not years later in a low stress situation. That's what I found strange enough to warrant posting my story rather than just asking for recommendations for a new SRG. I have a better understanding now how damage that may have happened years ago only became eveident now.

No comments on the corrosion

Thanks, but my pride requires a response to this one. There was no corrosion on the tool. I was turning wet mahogany and I didn't clean the residue off the tool after it broke. I fished it out of the garbage for the picture.

...appears to be a milled flute rather than forged, another sign of cheap.....doesn't mention the alleged alloy and hardening method

From prior comments, I was under the impression that milling was a more expensive and superior to forging. I suppose the answer to that is "it depends".

The tool came in a boxed starter set by Pinnacle that I bought at Woodcraft when I bought my first lathe (long before I heard of the AAW or turning clubs). I have no idea what the alloy and hardening method were.

The days when turners already knew something about how to make and use an edge before they took a tool to spinning work are gone....but the simple answer is the turners are screwing up. Used to be we'd say life lesson and go on...

Sounds like an overly romanticized recollection of a past that probably never existed for the general population. People likely weren't much different then than now. They just have bigger soapboxes available to them now.

The lesson here is how even poor tools in inexperienced hands can do an awful lot, but not everything, before they reach their limit

I have to agree. It may have been a cheap tool, but it survived my early learning period and gave me many years of good service before giving up the ghost. I'm glad it's final moments were as peaceful and uneventful as they were.

Ed
 
Dale Miner said:
It looks to me that in the third photo, (the gouge is upside down) the texture of the metal indicates the gouge experienced an overload at some point that fractured the tang about 40 percent of its section. This is the more coarse texture. From then on, the fracture continued to grow with use, fracturing a bit more with each loading and unloading cycle. This portion of the fracture has a smoother texture. The unfractured section eventually became small enough that the tang failed from normal use.

In the other photos, the radius as the transition between flute and tang appears to have a tight section, or perhaps even a notch at the origination point of the fracture. This is probably a contributing factor to the initial fracture.

Later,
Dale M
Click to expand...


That makes a lot of sense to me. In retrospect I should have more closely examined the tool on a regular basis during my early learning period. I had never noticed the crack in the wood handle that MichaelMouse pointed out until I examined the picture I took with my macro lens. My eyesight isn't all that great and a look with a magnifying glass may have revealed something at the tang indicating the tool needed replacement years ago. I guess I just have to be thankful I didn't have a more catastrophic failure at some earlier point.

Thanks

Ed
 
odie said:
Hey rsser.....

Just wondering what it is that made you to come to this conclusion......not holding an edge as well as they used to?

otis of cologne
Click to expand...

That's right.

Recently I gave away my Sorby 3/8 spindle gouge - the Henry Taylor equivalent holds an edge noticeably longer - and the edge holding of the tear-drop scraper bits of the multi-tool is atrocious. An older 3/8 beading tool however is fine. I've spoken to other turners whose experience has been similar.
 
Dale Miner said:
It looks to me that in the third photo, (the gouge is upside down) the texture of the metal indicates the gouge experienced an overload at some point that fractured the tang about 40 percent of its section. This is the more coarse texture. From then on, the fracture continued to grow with use, fracturing a bit more with each loading and unloading cycle. This portion of the fracture has a smoother texture. The unfractured section eventually became small enough that the tang failed from normal use.
Click to expand...

Think you're just looking at the difference between a surface created by flexion versus extension. The metal at the bottom of the gouge - top of the photo - was under compression, the rest under extension pressure. Thus the first remark that the gouge had taken a good smack. Tempting as it may be to assume a series of incidents, and I asked whether the gouge had been re-bent (the nearly parallel stress lines toward the middle of the metal x-section) to see if this might have been the case, there is no corrosion in the gouge area. Had there been a crack which expanded to failure, it's almost certain there would have been corrosion or some oxidative discoloration. Can't see it, and Ed confirms that he was working some wet acid stuff just prior, and did not clean out the break.

As to failure from normal use, it is abnormal in the extreme for that section of the tool to be under much stress, unless it's being used as a crowbar. Further, it is not a very good presentation of the tool to use it flute up, which the break and the compressed wood in the upper right - which appears oxidized, showing age - confirms it was at least a couple times. Even scrapers, which are commonly used broadside to the rotation and the work have narrowed "tangs," many of which are smaller in section than the one under consideration. I can't buy "normal use."
 
Ed_McDonnell said:
...appears to be a milled flute rather than forged, another sign of cheap.....doesn't mention the alleged alloy and hardening method

From prior comments, I was under the impression that milling was a more expensive and superior to forging. I suppose the answer to that is "it depends".

No, it isn't superior, might even be inferior, since the forging action is used to toughen the steel by reorienting the crystalline structure similar to heat tempering. Look at your wrenches, your chisels and such and note they proudly proclaim themselves to be forged steel. The milling technology made the inexpensive "long and strong" gouge accessible to we hobbyists.



The days when turners already knew something about how to make and use an edge before they took a tool to spinning work are gone....but the simple answer is the turners are screwing up. Used to be we'd say life lesson and go on...

Sounds like an overly romanticized recollection of a past that probably never existed for the general population. People likely weren't much different then than now. They just have bigger soapboxes available to them now.

Think not. The use of a knife or carving gouges and chisels - edged tools - used to be common. If you learned to whittle you learned a lot about how to present an edge for turning. Angle of entry for cutting versus lower angle for peeling, skew and draw of the edge to reduce drag, whittling back rather than splintering off long shavings from the middle, and so forth. Soapboxes do give stature to the ignorant as well as the learned, so takes a bit of knowledge on the part of the listener to distinguish between them.
Click to expand...

Pinnacle, eh? Woodcraft's current Chinese brand? I can't help but recall the to-do over BB, which might have been from the same factory, not properly hardening their steel early on. Yours might have suffered some of the initial QC problems as well.
 
spg

well this is an eye opener discussion, thanks for all the points made, i have checked my initial spg and am seriously considering replaceing it because it was my learning tool and is chinese also and better spg have been mentioned
 
Nah... Mr Mouse.

The fracture surface is a perfect example of overload initiation, and crack propagation from cyclical loading. The very tip of the crack has a notch effect that causes fatigue failure of the remaing section. The loading required to propagate the crack at the end of the notch is much less that the loading required to snap a similar section without the notch. For example, span a 10 foot gap with a 2x4 on edge, and stand on it. The 2x4 will sag, and return to straight when the load is removed. Take a 2X8, cut a notch in it at mid span to give a section at the notch that is the same as the 2X4, put the notch on the bottom, and stand on it. The 2X8 will likely split or crack at the notch. The notch caused the stress to accumulate at the end of the notch (aka stress riser).

Returning to the gouge in question, the smoother surface is caused by the slow spread of the crack from many lighter loading cycles, cracking the material in very small increments. Once the initial crack was formed, it would have spread from loading much less than the force required to start the crack.

As to a lack of corrosion, in actuallity, there is some discoloration of the surface. Not corrosion, but what appears to be oxidation, a slight graying of the material. Corrosion will not always be evident in a slowly grown crack. The surface fibers will stretch to some extent during the fracture, and when the loading is not present, the remaining section strength will force the stretched surface closed. Also, it is very likely that the material in question contains substantial quantities of alloying elements that impart some measure of corrosion resistance.

Later,
Dale M
 
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