Making your own WOP from Minwax Poly...in a "Nanny State"

[Jon Rista]

Ok. I recently had a thread about cleaning my Nova chuck. My original attempt to clean didn't go well, as I used "odorless" mineral spirits, which don't seem to contain aeromatic compounds, which are the compounds that actually do any real work as a solvent. The remaining compounds in "odorless" mineral spirits stink, and basically do nothing.

I have bought Minwax WOP a number of times...the stuff in the small but tall/narrow can. Its great...with the exception that one the can is half gone, it really LOVES to harden in the can. Just takes a couple of months, and the rest of the can is useless and eventually hardens to a jello-like substance. I use poly a bit, but not a ton, so I tend to lose about a third of a can, maybe a little less, each time.

I read some years back that you could make your own WOP from normal Minwax poly, plus mineral spirits. Well, living in a nanny state, they tell us what we can or cannot do, can or cannot buy, etc. Our masters here have demanded we give up all useful, viable solvents for useless junk. Odorless mineral spirits, as far as I can tell, don't work for jack as a solvent. They seem to keep things liquid, they seem to prevent drying, or at least GREATLY extend drying time instead of the opposite.

SO...given our masters here have taken away all useful solvents, except Turpentine, DNA, and ........well, I think that may actually be it! Will either of those work to thin normal Minwax Poly, in order to make your own WOP? Something that hand spreads more easily, and dries out reasonably fast? Or, am I just out of luck here? The cans of WOP off the shelf are really expensive, like 26.99 for a pint, whereas the normal "warm" cans of poly in quart are $13.99. Thin a quart of poly to 50%, and you would have 4x as much WOP, making the cost of home made like 8x cheaper!

Assuming, that is, you have a solvent that will actually work for the purpose... Any alternatives to true mineral spirits that might work, available in a nanny state?

 

[Jon Rista]

Also curious, I guess...what the best ratio is. I've read about two: 50/50, and 3/1.

Doing a little reading, mineral spirits are often labeled an alternative to turpentine, one "less toxic" and petroleum based. So, I may try thinning with turpentine to see how it goes.

 

[Dwayne Watt]

Odorless mineral spirits have worked well for me thinning out poly to be wipe on poly. I usually go approximately 30-50% MS in small dosage cups. 50/50 probably levels best. I use stop loss bags to store the original quart. Alternately, use stop loss bags to mix larger quantities. I use stop loss bags to store the original quart. One quart poly makes at least 2 quarts of wipe on equivalent. Ranting does nothing to solve your problem.

 

[Brian Gustin]

Just a note: Your leftovers harden and cure because the contents are exposed to oxygen - You could make it last a lot longer with stop loss bags (Some folks use cheaper wine bags, which may be an option) Get a size that holds a full quart you can get a quart can of MW WOP and pour it off right away into your stop loss bags, then just make sure to squeeze all the air out of the bag each time you use some, before putting cap back on. store out of direct sunlight and in a cooler place (a cabinet works fine) , your quart of WOP will probably last until you use it all up, I'd think. Mine does (So far still shelf stable after 8 months on the shelf this summer, been too busy with other stuff to use it up.) Might not need to do a "DIY" formula then?

 

[Ron Solfest]

Stoploss bags work VERY well, I think the one I just replaced for my homemade WOP had held several batches over at least 5-6yrs.

 

[Jon Rista]

Just a note: Your leftovers harden and cure because the contents are exposed to oxygen - You could make it last a lot longer with stop loss bags (Some folks use cheaper wine bags, which may be an option) Get a size that holds a full quart you can get a quart can of MW WOP and pour it off right away into your stop loss bags, then just make sure to squeeze all the air out of the bag each time you use some, before putting cap back on. store out of direct sunlight and in a cooler place (a cabinet works fine) , your quart of WOP will probably last until you use it all up, I'd think. Mine does (So far still shelf stable after 8 months on the shelf this summer, been too busy with other stuff to use it up.) Might not need to do a "DIY" formula then?

I understand oxidation, and actually do have stop loss bags (full of other finishes). The local woodcraft carried 'em for a couple of months earlier this year, which is when I discovered them...but they seemed to stop carrying them. They are also twice as large as the volume of the normal 1 Pint WOP cans around here. I also noticed that, my last can of WOP, bought I guess around mid February, was fine about two months ago. Went to use it today, and it was a rock. So it went from fine, to totally hardened, in rapid time. I sometimes wonder if you expose it enough to oxygen (i.e. shaking and pouring) that after a certain point, you kick off the curing process and it just happens rapidly? I dunno, maybe the way stop loss bags work would still prevent that, bit it seems to happen very fast. There seems to be some kind of threshold...before you hit it, your fine, once you do, better use whatever's left up fast or its done for?

As for DIY or not. Its more than just that it hardens so fast. Its also the ridiculous cost. Last time I was at Home Depot or Lowes, a 1 Pint can of Minwax WOP was $26.99. One shelf below was a quart of normal warm gloss poly for $13.99. So double the cost of the WOP, and you've got $54/qt, vs. $14/qt. That is nearly a 4x difference right there. Then if you consider you'd likely dilute 1:1, or 50/50 mix, with a thinner for home made WOP, and you've got almost an 8x difference in cost? Or 7.7x to be exact. In other words, one can of normal Minxwax Warm Gloss poly, $14, diluted 50/50 with say turpentine, $16. You end up with half a gallon of home made WOP. That's four times as much as you get off the shelf, or $108 worth of Minwax WOP. You saved yourself $78 when you account for the $30 you spent on normal poly and turpentine.

I've been out of work for a bit. I guess my penny pincher mentality has kicked in. Still, that's a pretty hefty savings!

Odorless mineral spirits have worked well for me thinning out poly to be wipe on poly. I usually go approximately 30-50% MS in small dosage cups. 50/50 probably levels best. I use stop loss bags to store the original quart. Alternately, use stop loss bags to mix larger quantities. I use stop loss bags to store the original quart. One quart poly makes at least 2 quarts of wipe on equivalent. Ranting does nothing to solve your problem.

Ranting keeps me from raging, so, its solving "A" problem. ;P I'm sick and tired of government overstepping their bounds, more than you can possibly imagine, so ranting definitely serves a purpose.

FWIW, I tried with turpentine, and it actually seems to have worked quite well. It dries a little faster than the normal off the shelf Minwax WOP, but not so fast that I can't work with it. I do have to make sure I'm working in better ventilation, as the piney smell of the turpentine, even at a 1/3rd mixture, is still pretty strong (it is one of the more pleasant aromatic scents though!)

In my experience, and I don't know what you use for odorless mineral spirits, the stuff I am able to get ahold of around here (and I generally can only find one brand) seems to do the opposite of what I want. Its not just to thin, but to speed up drying a bit. A normal can of poly is a bit slowish on the drying. In the past, when I had normal mineral spirits, thinning would speed up drying. With the odorless junk, it seems to slow drying considerably. It also leaves the finish tacky or gooy for a long, long time. The spirits I have also seem to be slightly oily? The can says SPIRITS, not mineral oil, but it does seem to be a bit oily. That may be just because the aeromatics have basically been eliminated and its just aliphatics or alkanes?

In any case...I've written off the junk sold around here as useless, because I have yet to find anything it actually seems to do. It doesn't thin well. It slows drying time (which, I guess, could be a use, although I usually want to speed up poly drying time instead, and its the only real use I have for it.) It gums up oil finishes. It doesn't clean anything up. It doesn't seem to dissolve anything... It actually kind of stinks (aromatics are pungent, but tend to smell a bit sweet...whatever the heck is in the OMS sold around here is...almost putrid.)

 

[Roger Wiegand]

We could do without political rants on this forum.

 

[Brian Gustin]

It also leaves the finish tacky or gooy for a long, long time.

In my experience with Poly (MW WOP, as well as regular poly, home made WOP, and water based poly) a gooey, tacky finish generally indicates the coat was applied too thick. It does take much longer to dry then. All the Mineral Spirits we get here in the boondocks at local builder supply store is the low odor version, and I have never had the experiences so many others describe, so I wonder if it may be climate (humidity?) related, or just applying a finish too thick.? (If you were to apply to a vertical surface , if it sags or runs, it is too thick.)

 

[John Ames]

2 quick suggestions from another guy in a nanny state…

1: Get a bottle of argon and fill the can of WOP after every use.

2: switch to lacquer and forget about it.

I’m alone in this, I’m sure, but rants about anything and everything make me laugh. You be you…

 

[Jon Rista]

In my experience with Poly (MW WOP, as well as regular poly, home made WOP, and water based poly) a gooey, tacky finish generally indicates the coat was applied too thick. It does take much longer to dry then. All the Mineral Spirits we get here in the boondocks at local builder supply store is the low odor version, and I have never had the experiences so many others describe, so I wonder if it may be climate (humidity?) related, or just applying a finish too thick.? (If you were to apply to a vertical surface , if it sags or runs, it is too thick.)

I apply very thin, so I don't think its that. It might be the humidity at times, but, it seems to be related to the OMS. If I thin with that, then the drying time is extended and it doesn't dry well (or maybe it just takes way longer to dry.) With thin coats, with poly thinned with OMS, if I pick it up after a day (should only take an hour or so), even though the coat is thin, I'll leave fingerprints in the thin coat. It just doesn't cure, it seems.

I thinned some of the standard minwax warm poly last night with a bit of turpentine (never used it before to thin poly), and it seems to have worked like a charm. Within an hour I could pick it up, and it felt almost entirely dry. No fingerprints left behind, felt very slightly tacky in some places, but overall it was a much better experience. I don't know if turpentine is an appropriate thinner, but it seems to have worked so far. I did two coats last night. I think it needs one more today, and I'll see how it goes here. The pieces feel bone dry today.

-\_o.o_/-

 

[John K Jordan]

I have bought Minwax WOP a number of times...the stuff in the small but tall/narrow can. Its great...with the exception that one the can is half gone, it really LOVES to harden in the can. Just takes a couple of months, and the rest of the can is useless and eventually hardens to a jello-like substance. I use poly a bit, but not a ton, so I tend to lose about a third of a can, maybe a little less, each time.

THERE IS A SOLUTION to keep finishes from going bad.

I'd like to address the problem of finishes setting up in the can. The method I use has stopped this completely. As an example, TruOil (gunstock) finish is so notorious for setting up quickly I suspect that's one reason they sell it in such small bottles. With the method I use I've had plastic bottles of TruOil on my shelf for almost 8 years now and they are still as good as new even though I open and use a bit occasionally. Also, in the past I've had cans of poly and "danish" oil (poly+BLO+solvant) first form a skin then eventually set up completely. No more. Not a single instance.

The problem: You HAVE to keep oxygen (and some say the water in air) away from polymerizing finishes. There is no other way! (I am no chemist - this is just experience.)

There are some popular and relatively inexpensive tricks. The "tricks" I'm aware of include things like buying and transfering the finishes to stop-loss bags, filling a jar of the finish with marbles, and (??) turning the can upside down. I haven't tried all of these but I have no interest in messing with the special bags and marbles. I want to unscrew the cap, use a little, treat and close the cap, and put it back on the shelf till the next time (which might be a year or two). Makes life in the shop simpler and potentially less messy.

There are two excellent ways to keep the air (and the oxygen) away from the finish. One is a the commercial product Bloxygen. I used that before I switched to my current method. Bloxygen is nothing but inert argon gas in a can. (The first can I got was mixture of argon, nitrogen, and CO2 but they changed some years ago due to some research showing that in rare cases certain finishes could react with CO2.) Argon + Nitrogen would work fine but my guess is it was probably more trouble and cost to mix them than simply use pure argon, even though argon is more expensive. (At least around here.) Just a guess with no facts to back it up...



Bloxygen:

Bloxygen

Bloxygen is preservation system for leftovers that uses powerful but natural inert gas. Benefits of Bloxygen: Protect anything sensitive to oxygen or moisture damage Bloxygen inert gas preserves leftover paint, stain, varnish, etc. Reduce your hazardous waste / product loss...

www.amazon.com

A Bloxygen Plus: it REALLY works! I used it successfully for years.
A Bloxygen Minus: it's not cheap. They claim one $17 can has 75 uses, in quarts - what ever that means.
Note that gas is so light weight a new can will feel like it's empty, but it's not. (It's not highly compressed.)
Just follow the directions and trust them. Argon gas is heavier than air so I don't think the air in the entire empty volume of the partially full can needs to be displaced.

The method I use is perfect for me for a couple of reasons. But first, the method:
I use a cylinder of highly compressed gas from a local distributor. For years I used pure nitrogen which worked well. Since nitrogen is lighter than oxygen I displace all the air in the container before closing the lid. This is easy to do with the right setup. One tank of nitrogen would probably last for decades in my shop but I also use the same cylinder for other farm purposes that use quite a bit more gas than shop finishes.
A few years ago I switched to a cylinder of argon/CO2 mix and it also works well. I switched to the argon/CO2 mix because I already had extra tanks of that on hand for MIG welding. If that cylinder ever runs out, I'll probably replace it with pure argon.

Cylinder of pressurized gas, Plus: it REALLY works!
Cylinder of pressurized gas, Minus: the inital set up is not cheap. After that, the gas is not expensive.

To set up a cylinder you need three things: the cylinder, a regulator, a place to put it, and a piece of hose. The hose is cheap. The cylinder and regulator are not.

Some things to know:

• Some sizes of cylinders cannot be bought now but must be rented. I use two sizes, the largest available for sale (at least around here), size "Q", 80 cu ft., and some much smaller (and cheaper) cylinders that hold 40cu ft. These are the same cylinders people buy for helium gas if they don't want to pay rental fees. (I keep helium on hand too.)
• Cylinders are compressed to over 2000 PSI so if you knock one over and it breaks the regulator, it can shoot like a rocket. The fix is simple: attach it to something like a wall, cabinet, or stand with a small piece of light chain. My welding cards all use the dinky chain.
• Pressurized cylinders must be inspected and tested after a number of years for safety reasons. (Similar to scuba tanks, for the divers among us.) This can cost a bit, but the distributor I buy gas from simply swaps my empty tank with a full already inspected/tested one and only charges for the gas. (Another big advantage of swapping for a full tank is the instant turn-around time!)
• I move the gas from the regulator to the of finish with a short piece of inexpensive flexible plastic tubing from the hardware store.

The cost of the cylinder and regulator is not cheap but I haven't compared and calculated the difference between that and buying cans of Bloxygen. You can use and reuse the cylinder for your lifetime and for generations of descendents. The compressed cylinder method is a no-brainer for me since I already had extra cylinders and regulators on hand. If starting from scratch, I might price a smaller tank and regulator. Nearly any industrial compressed gas supplier will sell what's needed and they are everywhere - there are three convenient to me. A welding supply or welding shop can steer you to a distributor if needed. (Note that regulators are sometimes different, for example those used for pure oxygen.)

The application method I use is simple. Before closing the lid, I put the tube into the opening while holding the lid at ready, turn on the gas until I sure the air is displaced, then quickly pull out the tubing and screw on the lid. Then turn off the gas. It's the same method that Bloxygen instructs, except with an abundance of relatively inexpensive gas I can afford use more each time.

The bottom line: try the Bloxygen and see what you think. Depending on the need, this may be sufficient. Otherwise, perhaps look into acquiring a cylinder and regulator.

JKJ

 

[Steve Tiedman]

@John K Jordan I was this >< close to setting up exactly what you just described just within the last year. But, I'm so casual in my shop time that the couple-few hundred dollar investment just didn't make sense to me. At that moment. But, to anyone who spends time in the shop more regularly than me cracking open cans of curing/polymerizing-type finishes, I'd whole-heartedly recommend what John described- a small tank of argon, a regulator, and a hose to insert the gas into your finish cans. Keep the hose as short as practical- don't run 20' of it across the shop only to lose argon to the atmosphere, have the finish and argon tank right next to each and use a short, small diameter hose to keep those losses minimal.

I'll admit, there have been times when I've made my own CO2. Stage the lid of the finish can ready to seal, take a deep breath and hold it as long as you can (I can get 30 seconds if I'm staying calm and still), then blow into the can with the cap cracked open just a little bit, then quickly seal after a full exhale. Effective? Geez, I don't know, but it's better than straight air. I'm probably introducing a bit of water moisture, too, which probably doesn't help.

To the OP- what is the temperature in your shop environment when finishing? 70F or somewhat higher is ideal. The colder below 70, curing problems occur.

Finally, I don't want to encourage breaking the law, but can you (legally) import solvents more to your liking from out of state? And by that, I mean you'd have to physically bring them in with your own vehicle, nobody is going to ship it to you.

The laws change not because of the quart can I have or that you have, they change because of the accumulative effect their production and use have in the grand scale, all of us together, big and small users. Agree or disagree, if the science says there's a problem we need to solve...

 

[Tom McDonnell]

Solvents across state lines=40 yrs in federal prison! Ok, maybe not. I visit Oregon occasionally and stock up on denatured alcohol and/or Everclear there. Also usually get some for a couple friends and they do the same for me.
Poly mixed with turpentine is an old school finish that I,ve used a few times on flat work or furniture. Takes a while to cure and the odor while curing is too much for some folks. I don't use minwax poly on bowls anymore for that reason. My wife won't let them in the house.

 

[Curt Fuller]

Jon, I make my own WOP by mixing spar urethane, boiled linseed oil, and the unscented mineral spirits in equal amounts. I bought a 6 pack of 1 gallon cans on ebay a few years ago, the square ones with a screw on lid. One of those will last me quite a while and I haven't ever had to throw any of it out. I just pour the three ingredients into the can and shake it all up. In the summer when my shop (garage) temps are in the 90s I add a cup or two of additional mineral spirits when I sense the mix is thickening. I think the secret to using WOP, homemade or off the shelf, involves two things. You have to shake the **** out of it before each use. And then shake it a some more. Don't worry about bubbles, wiping it on, letting it sit for 20-30 minutes and then wiping it off takes care of the bubbles. The second thing is temperature. In my hot summer garage I can put two coats a day on. In the winter I have to move the finishing to a small workshop in my basement and run a small space heater when finishing. 70+ degrees, 80 is even better, and usually only get 1 coat a day. But I've also found that it's nearly impossible for me to get a gloss finish using WOP without a lot of effort. Many coats are required with light sanding in between every other coat. You can't just put it on thick. I jokingly tell my woodturning friends that the WOP actually means Wipe Off Poly because if you don't wipe it off it just doesn't ever look good. When it finally starts to build a gloss finish, give it one last very light coat, let that sit a week or so and then buff and wax with ren wax. I'm not a gloss fan myself so I don't do that very often. Two coats usually satisfies my taste.

 

[Graham Dolby]

I'm a great fan of Stop Loss bags. I use Osmo on my larger turnings. It's expensive and once opened, a can will harden in a few weeks. In 2018. I transferred a can of it to a stop Loss bag and used the last of it earlier this year. I now have 3 SL bags of different types of Osmo and don't have to worry about them hardening.
I also have another bag of General Finishes salad bowl finish.

 

[Jon Rista]

Solvents across state lines=40 yrs in federal prison! Ok, maybe not. I visit Oregon occasionally and stock up on denatured alcohol and/or Everclear there. Also usually get some for a couple friends and they do the same for me.
Poly mixed with turpentine is an old school finish that I,ve used a few times on flat work or furniture. Takes a while to cure and the odor while curing is too much for some folks. I don't use minwax poly on bowls anymore for that reason. My wife won't let them in the house.

Cool. I'm an old school fellow.

I will admit, the smell does linger. I am finishing smaller objects, so it shouldn't take long to cure and for the smell to go away, but I could imagine on a bowl, it might take a while. I wish I had access to better solvents...

 

[Jon Rista]

@John K Jordan Thanks for the writeup. I had actually heard of bloxygen before, but I've never used it. I'll give it a try next time I buy a can of WOP.

So, I guess, there IS a reason why I've tended to keep the WOP in a can. It does have solids, and I've found they can settle. Minwax's instructions on the can state to shake the can well before applying, so that's what I do. With stop-loss bags, which I do use for several finishes, including shellac finishes and sealers, I find its fairly tough to really mix the finish up in the bag. Shellac seems to get tougher the longer its around...you can see more and more stuff collecting in the bottom of the bags over time (I always pour some out into another container when I need to use it, so, I don't know where this stuff is coming from outside of precipitating out of the solution?) You can mix to a degree, but its not easy and not all that effective. Keeping WOP in a can, though, makes shaking it to mix easy.

I'm using this home-made WOP right now. I made a few small batches, and put them in little 1oz squeeze bottles. A bottle finishes a bunch of the small items I'm working on in a sitting. This way, I'm not making a ton and won't necessarily need to use any oxygen blocker. I will probably need to put the rest of the cans of normal poly in stop loss bags though, as now there is some oxygen in the cans. They are 8oz cans though, and I have other things to finish, so they might not last long.

 

[Jon Rista]

Jon, I make my own WOP by mixing spar urethane, boiled linseed oil, and the unscented mineral spirits in equal amounts. I bought a 6 pack of 1 gallon cans on ebay a few years ago, the square ones with a screw on lid. One of those will last me quite a while and I haven't ever had to throw any of it out. I just pour the three ingredients into the can and shake it all up. In the summer when my shop (garage) temps are in the 90s I add a cup or two of additional mineral spirits when I sense the mix is thickening. I think the secret to using WOP, homemade or off the shelf, involves two things. You have to shake the **** out of it before each use. And then shake it a some more. Don't worry about bubbles, wiping it on, letting it sit for 20-30 minutes and then wiping it off takes care of the bubbles. The second thing is temperature. In my hot summer garage I can put two coats a day on. In the winter I have to move the finishing to a small workshop in my basement and run a small space heater when finishing. 70+ degrees, 80 is even better, and usually only get 1 coat a day. But I've also found that it's nearly impossible for me to get a gloss finish using WOP without a lot of effort. Many coats are required with light sanding in between every other coat. You can't just put it on thick. I jokingly tell my woodturning friends that the WOP actually means Wipe Off Poly because if you don't wipe it off it just doesn't ever look good. When it finally starts to build a gloss finish, give it one last very light coat, let that sit a week or so and then buff and wax with ren wax. I'm not a gloss fan myself so I don't do that very often. Two coats usually satisfies my taste.

Aye! Shaking is key! I discovered that a couple years ago. I've never worried about the bubbles, since I'm manually wiping it on, and bubbles always seem to pop as its leveling out on the wood.

I also actually like WOP with just a couple coats, maybe three or four if the wood is really thirsty. I like that soft, satin sheen that you get when using it that way. Plus, the feel of it is just WONDERFUL. Feels rich, quality. I do sometimes put on enough coats to get a good gloss. I just finished two bell christmas ornaments with a glossy finish (used the normal poly, without thinning, which took a long time for each coat to cure and to get a good gloss...lot of coats.) I then finished a couple more with the homemade mix I made the other day, and both have 3 coats, with that nice soft satin finish.

I've never tried to make my own WOP entirely from scratch. I've never quite liked the yellowing from linseed oil....you think it would work with tung oil? The color of tung and how it affects the wood (more mild than linseed, warmer as well) is just more pleasing to me, not to mention the water resistance feature. I have tried to use spar urethane on its own as a finish. I've never quite had any luck...getting it to level without streaks or bubbles seems very tough. Do you find that your WOP mix levels out well? If you DID want a glossy coat...how long would it take to get one? A month or so? Or can you get a good cured glossy finish in less time?

 

[Jon Rista]

FWIW, I seem to be one of many who have had problems with the kind of odorless mineral spirits sold here in Colorado:

Poly / mineral spirits are slow to dry

www.lumberjocks.com

I've come across other threads as well, trying to find out if there are other useful solvents still sold here in Colorado. Seems there are not many. I am guessing turpentine is still available because you can make your own by cooking pine sap...? In any case, the OMS sold here, seems to have basically been ridded of any useful solvents, and it seems I'm not the only one facing "drying time increase" problems using it. Bummer is, I have most of a darn gallon of the stuff left... Don't know what I'm going to do with it. It seems to be useless stuff.

Another problem we have here is, we can't get real paint thinner either. We can only get this green paint thinner, which also seems to be 90% useless. This guy in the other thread said to use paint thinner, which was "100% Stoddard solvents"...I don't think that is true in Colorado anymore, just in case anyone here tries this (I have...whatever paint thinners are sold here, they are NOT compatible with oil based finishes as far as I can tell! Not as a thinner, at least.)

Poly / mineral spirits are slow to dry

www.lumberjocks.com