Looking for Sugar Maple Solid Drum Shells

[David Loewen]

Hi there, Dave Loewen here. Listen, I have been doing some digging, and I stumbled across your site, and I am wondering if you might be able to help me out.

THE PROBLEM
I'm writing to you from Vancouver, BC CANADA, which is exactly the reason that I am posting here - Sugar Maple doesn't grow out here, and I need some of it. It's pretty standard issue for what I want to do because it is tough and looks as amazing as it sounds. What I really want is to find someone that was willing to turn it for me - making solid one ply true solid drum shells (yes the percussion instrument - drum set)

I am looking to make drum shells out of solid pieces of Sugar Maple (not much different from the process of bowl-making I assume). Anyway, being that Sugar Maple isn't native to these here parts, I am trying to find someone who might be able to supply me with some wood to turn, or turn it for me and send me a completely finished (or roughly finished "shell" and I would bring it to completion on this end).

GENERAL INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR
The depth of shells (finished product) would be anywhere from 10" dia x 8" depth all the way up to 22" dia x 20 depth (with various sizes inbetewen). I understand that the later size would be quite difficult to get because of it's size, but I don't imagine that the smaller sizes would too much of a task.

Just to give you an example so that you might be able to visualize my needs; my drum set has a 10"x10" tom drum, a 16"x14" floor tom drum, a 20"x20" bass (also called a kick) drum, and a 13"x7 snare drum (all sizes I just gave you are dia x depth). I think the bass drum has a thickness of 3/8" while all the other drums are 1/4 of an inch (although the snare may be up to 1/2" or even 5/8" thick).

THE SOLUTION
If you are interested in pursuing this further, get in touch with me and I'll pass my number along so we can talk. I am sure you have questions, as do I. I am willing to pay, so throw some figures my way and lets talk.

Can somebody please help me out here by using your craftsmanship and talent to make me some shells (might be a reasonably profitable side business - the turning of the blanks and shipping of the shells to me that is...), or direct me to someone who could (either sell me blanks large enough or turn the appropriate sized blanks into roughly the correct sized shells that I would need)?

Just to assure that I have explained myself correctly, I am going to recap. I am looking for open-ended cylinders that have been turned from one solid piece of stock and I will not consider a cylinder turned from glued-up stock (aka stave construction).

Since sound and tone is the primary issue for me (aesthetics being second), the finished product should be free of defects (nature's or yours).

Now I think I'm starting to sound a little over-particular, but there is some flexibility here. As of right now, I do not have any dates to impose upon you, however the success of my drum kits (and our working relationship) will depend I suppose on the quality of the shells that you are producing. Regarding shipping, I could set up an account with Fedex and they could pick the shells up at your door to relieve some stress, and I am open to how and when you get paid.

If you are interested, lets talk. Please don't be shy, there is some very decent money in this for the right craftsman.


Thanks for considering. Please ask any questions you have, and don't hesitate to drop me a line.


Thank you for considering,

Dave

 

[George Guadiane]

Dave,
I am assuming you are going to mount conventional hardware on these shells...
The reason that commercial drums are laminated is because they need to be round, and stay that way. The laminations form a more rigid, less distorting form.
I'm not sure that you would be happy with the distortion that would almost surely occur from the construction you desire. If you want this for look, they would look cool! I'm not sure what the sound would be like though (I used to play drums).
You MIGHT be able to turn inside diameter so that you could ply form the inside to the drum. then turn the outside down to the final dimension, but YIKES, that seems like a lot of work.
As I said, it would sure look nice...

 

[David Loewen]

Well, there are two companies that I know exist (one in Australia and one in Quebec, Canada) that make solid shell kits. So 1) I know it can be done, and 2) the market is wanting. I have heard a solid shell snare and in comparison to ply, segmented, or even stave, the sound is unbelievable. I am looking for warmth and tone, and obviously aesthetics. i would want to offer other flavors of wood eventually, but the Maple, being the most desirous is a great starting point (the most sought after followed by Birch and Mahogany). I know it is a bit of a hastel, but for the quality of sound... I think it would be worth it. The company in Quebec is called Luka Percussion, and have offered to sell shells to me for my endeavor, but I can't help but think that their prices are unnecessarily steep. $450.00 for a snare up to $1200.00- 1500.00 for a kick drum. I know they are making quite a profit in selling their shells (of course making it next to impossible for a guy like me to purchase their shells and then turn around and mount my custom designed hardware on it and call it a Loewen Custom True Solid Drum). I was hoping I could find a way to do it for $1000.00 -$1500.00 for a whole shell pack (all the shells necessary for a drum kit - usually 5). I have considered doing it on my own, but 1) I am not a turner, 2) Don't have access to Sugar Maple, and 3) I don't have the appropriate equipment to do it properly (or even at all). Suggestions???

 

[Ron Sardo]

Here we go again

http://tinyurl.com/2fnsmg

Response #135 said it best

 

[David Loewen]

Thanks Ron, you are such a wonderful encourager (drip... drip...drip...). Anyway, yes, I did post on Sawmill creek a few days ago and was told by several members that although the idea was neat, that there were too many hobbyist turners (consequently lacking the knowledge or equipment to tackle such a project), and that this would be a more appropriate place to post. So that is what I have done, since I am not a turner.

Any interest in such a project here?

 

[Vaughn McMillan]

...I was hoping I could find a way to do it for $1000.00 -$1500.00 for a whole shell pack (all the shells necessary for a drum kit - usually 5)...Suggestions???

Five high-quality bowls made from sugar maple in the size ranges comparable to a drum kit could easily cost $200+ per bowl on average. And bowls are quite a bit easier to make than drum shells would be (and without the exacting tolerances necessary). With all due respect, I don't think the Canadian outfit is all that high-priced.

I sincerely wish you luck in your endeavor. (Used to work in a drum & guitar shop, so I have some idea of what you're after.)

 

[George Guadiane]

but I can't help but think that their prices are unnecessarily steep. $450.00 for a snare up to $1200.00- 1500.00 for a kick drum. I know they are making quite a profit in selling their shells (of course making it next to impossible for a guy like me to purchase their shells and then turn around and mount my custom designed hardware on it and call it a Loewen Custom True Solid Drum).
Suggestions???

Actually, when you consider the time involved finding, turning, drying, turning, drying, turning... the wood, and the amount of cost for even adequate machinery, you COULDN'T "know" that they are making "quite a profit."
Besides, he who takes the risk (of setting up the manufacture) gets/deserves the rewards.
I stand by my concern about the shells warping, but obviously (if two companies are doing it) it can be done.
I can only suggest two things, since you seem determined:

• Make the shells yourself
• Try China, they do good work cheap and would certainly have the equipment there, and getting the wood is "just" a matter of shipping... Just be prepared to buy many MANY kits, otherwise tooling up for one kit or just a few would be prohibitive.

I think I understand what it is you want to do and why, I just don't think you will be able to get what you want at the price you would like, even if you do it yourself.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Actually, when you consider the time involved finding, turning, drying, turning, drying, turning... the wood, and the amount of cost for even adequate machinery, you COULDN'T "know" that they are making "quite a profit."

I stand by my concern about the shells warping, but obviously (if two companies are doing it) it can be done.

It would have to be some pretty circular hard maple, that's for sure. Irregular growth rings would cause adsorbtion/desorbtion to distort out of round, though probably within tolerance for the rims. Veneer grade logs aren't cheap, and that's because you can make more money out of them by peeling than turning. Lower grade logs would produce enough length between defects for the project, but I would certainly make a backup of each green turning as insurance, so that'd double the cost. For one-time production, exorbitant overhead.

Accoustic properties of beech, based on the marimbas, kalimbas and dulcimers the kids built in school, are pretty good. Have you considered that relatively unpopular eastern hardwood? It'd be cheaper.

 

[Hstudio]

Here we go again is right! David.....I followed the thread on S-Creek and thought that yor idea is great, but business plan is flawed. I have the means necessary to make your drums, but wouldn't tackle the project on a dare. I'm a musician, luthier and an artist.....I know what drums are supposed to sound like and the slight tonal differences and tonal qualities between different materials. But, I'm not sure that the tone of such a drum kit would be appreciably different from other boutique drum makers. As for building the shells.......I would suspect a high failure rate of the shells themselves, as many have stated before. To produce one kit at a time, within tolerance, would result in very expensive drums. If the kits were well recieved at the high cost, how would you mass produce them? CNC lathes are extremely expensive. A lathe of the size required cost well north of six figures!!!! If the capital is not available to you, I suggest a partnership with someone with the required tooling who is willing to manufacture your drums. I seem to remember you saying that you have developed your own hardware.....Get a patent and run with that. At this point, anyone who is willing with a large lathe can turn the drums and use (steal)your idea.

Good Luck

 

[drjcbarton]

Hi David,

Don't shoot the messenger when they bring you an answer that you don't like. I too have followed your thread on SMC and can tell you that your plan is fraught with problems that would make this a no go from a business point of view. Judging from what I've seen there is a reason why only two companies make the shell you want to make, it's a money loosing proposition. You have had multitudes of answers to your question and almost unanimously they point out that doing one-off shells from solid endgrain blanks is a 10-20% solution (make 10 shells to have 2 that might be right for a day). Here is a suggestion; go to a museum and look at turnings from 10, 20, or more years ago and notice that none (NONE) are symetric or round. Wood moves and turnings are no different. A shell might be perfect for about a week after you finish it but, then it's gonna move... and as Shakespeare said, "therein lies the rub."

Thanks Ron, you are such a wonderful encourager (drip... drip...drip...). Anyway, yes, I did post on Sawmill creek a few days ago and was told by several members that although the idea was neat, that there were too many hobbyist turners (consequently lacking the knowledge or equipment to tackle such a project), and that this would be a more appropriate place to post. So that is what I have done, since I am not a turner.

Any interest in such a project here?

 

[Ken Grunke]

Ten years ago I would have been enthused about a project like this, and I had at my disposal a 24" x 8 ft Oliver patternmaker's lathe. I was actually making drums, but African hand drums, not kit drums. From solid logs, up to about 20" diameter to start with roughed out between centers, then lagged to a heavy faceplate for hollowing a drum that rarely ended up more than 16" dia.
So I'm a little familiar with the logistics of working on that scale. All the drums smaller than the bass drum are doable in my book, but the biggest one would be pretty scary. I also turned a few staved cylinder drums, up to 22" diameter and 3 ft long which were really scary. Boy, was I dumb for being even 20 ft near that kind of work, in retrospect.Well, the speed was low enough and I rigged up a guard to keep the smithereens away from my face. Before that, I had one explosion of a 15" staved djembe which hit my faceguard with enough force to knock me back on my butt, and bruise the bridge of my nose. That was one out of a couple hundred of that size, I was quite lucky.
Anyway, if I still had access to that big lathe and were 10 years younger and dumber again, I'd make a straight coring tool from 3/4" steel shaft, with a HSS cutter bit at the end slightly larger. The shaft would need additional support from a piece of say, 5/8" plate steel maybe 2" wide, it's edge milled with a flute to hold the round shaft and allow it to rotate. The plate could be milled or forged to a curve that would fit in the smallest circular groove of the coring process. Fabricate a fixture to hold this on the carriage and away you go.

It has been shown here and on the SC forum that anyone with a keen business sense and unwillingness to take odd risks is not going to be your man. The fellow willing to do this is out there somewhere, I'm sure--probably some crazy old hippie or redneck mechanical genius on the fringe of society with outdated industrial equipment, or a similarly equipped person in a third-world country who is willing to take a much lower wage than we are here in America.

 

[David Loewen]

Hey you guys, I do appreciate all the feedback. Yes, some of it is hard to take though. I see all these beautiful bowls and vases, and can't help but wonder why an open ended cylinder could be so much more difficult. I mean, wouldn't a drum shell essentially be a straight vase with the bottom cut off? I know that probably sounds ignorant (I am no woodturner) and I apologize for that, but still...

Many of you have said that it would be tough, too tough. And I can appreciate that. Why I seem so determined is because as a drum maker, I recognize that the tonal differences aren't slight between many species, if they were, everyone would just use poplar, spruce, or pine because of it's availability and just laquer the heck out of it for durability. And even so, slight tonal differences are a big deal.

My business plan isn't too flawed, I didn't think. I have sold percussion instruments to the 5 major music chains in Canada in the past, and know firsthand all the drum and percussion purchasers, and have a decent relationship with them as far as things go. So getting product on the floor isn't a problem. But no, I don't have 50k for a massive ad campaign. What I know is that word travels fast, probably faster that the shells could be produced, but that's OK. I think the waiting time would be worth it for the customer in the end. The goal isn't to put out 300 or 400 kits or more a year, but more like 12-24. I mean, if I was doing one or two a month, I'd probably be happy with that, but I don't know how possible that even is.

I know the drying is the problem. I get that. Wouldn't a lot of the risk be eliminated if the shells were rough cut (getting however many you could out of one log - leaving say 2 or more inches of thickness for each at this stage) and then kiln dried? Wouldn't that do something to reduce cracking due to shrinkage?

Also, another thing I am curious about is this: wouldn't the tension put on the hoops (which fit nice and snug around either opening of the cylinder) hold the drum's round?

 

[George Guadiane]

Hey you guys, I do appreciate all the feedback. Yes, some of it is hard to take though. I see all these beautiful bowls and vases, and can't help but wonder why an open ended cylinder could be so much more difficult. I mean, wouldn't a drum shell essentially be a straight vase with the bottom cut off? I know that probably sounds ignorant (I am no woodturner) and I apologize for that, but still...

I'm a bench jeweler. I can fix most things with relative ease, but someone often comes in with ah "why is this so expensive, all you have to do is..."
Here's the thing, a bowl has a bottom and sides... The bottom helps keep the bowl round. Without a bottom, you either have to have a REALLY round log (with no stress) or deal with warping. If we are going to bother to do something (for someone else), we want it to come out right, based on reality not on desire. What you want at the price you seem to want to pay isn't reasonable.

Many of you have said that it would be tough, too tough. And I can appreciate that. Why I seem so determined is because as a drum maker, I recognize that the tonal differences aren't slight between many species, if they were, everyone would just use poplar, spruce, or pine because of it's availability and just laquer the heck out of it for durability. And even so, slight tonal differences are a big deal.

With due respect to your desire and the difference that the one wood shell would make, if there was ANYONE here who could get you where you want to go, we would be all over it. I have to say that wood turners are a friendly helpful lot (for the most part).

My business plan isn't too flawed, I didn't think. I have sold percussion instruments to the 5 major music chains in Canada in the past, and know firsthand all the drum and percussion purchasers, and have a decent relationship with them as far as things go. So getting product on the floor isn't a problem. But no, I don't have 50k for a massive ad campaign.

The money wouldn't be for advertising, the money would be for manufacturing startup.

What I know is that word travels fast, probably faster that the shells could be produced, but that's OK. I think the waiting time would be worth it for the customer in the end. The goal isn't to put out 300 or 400 kits or more a year, but more like 12-24. I mean, if I was doing one or two a month, I'd probably be happy with that, but I don't know how possible that even is.

After checking on two boards and getting the same kind of response, it SHOULD be becoming clear that yours is pretty much in the "do-it-yourself" category. I mean really, a) we really would LOVE to help (it would be COOL to say I make drums), but b) from people who know, it isn't remotely practical for us.

I know the drying is the problem. I get that. Wouldn't a lot of the risk be eliminated if the shells were rough cut (getting however many you could out of one log - leaving say 2 or more inches of thickness for each at this stage) and then kiln dried? Wouldn't that do something to reduce cracking due to shrinkage?

Drying is the BIGGEST problem. Time invested, loss of materials, etc all play in to the "reasonableness" of the idea. Dealing with people who don't understand the short and long term problems of the process is another. Let's say that you have 3 customers who are WAITING for your drums and your shell maker is having problems and your customers are getting mad, threatening to just buy somewhere else, and want their deposit back... What are you going to say to the turner? My GUESS, based on how insistent/persistent you are on these boards is that it's not something you will take well.
How much are you willing to invest with the possibility that you will get nothing back? MAYBE if you throw a big bag of money at it, with the understanding that the money may go to failure, you could get someone to try it, but I bet if we can't deliver the quality that you will demand in the time frame you desire we will have worked really hard to do a really good job for nothing.

Also, another thing I am curious about is this: wouldn't the tension put on the hoops (which fit nice and snug around either opening of the cylinder) hold the drum's round?

probably not. Ask Leo about the forces of nature.

 

[Ron Sardo]

David

As was mentioned many times before, you need to learn to do this yourself.

Since you are on a tight budget, I would suggest building a fire in the center of the log to hollow it out. The cost would be minimal and at the same time you would be drying out the shell just as if you where using a kiln.

Good luck in your endeavor and let us know how it "turns" out.

 

[jason slutsky]

I also followed this lengthy yet interesting thread on sawmill creek. A lot of Creekers follow this forum also. Before it gets going to far I wanted to point out the Spirit Drums website. They do exactly what David wishes to do...albeit with drum shells of Ironwood. So it CAN be done...successfully.

David, I wish you the best and really hope that you take on this project from start to finish yourself using the advice you have gotten from the people here and elsewhere. If you love this as much as I think you do, the money will come from somewhere and not be an issue. Since I've started turning, I've found that my brethren are some of the kindest, and most generous people I've ever met. And they know what they're talking about. And there's always more than one way to do it. You've gotten some critique, sometimes harsh but nonetheless truthful and from the heart. As a turner and musician, I hope to see this project come to fruition and hope to see pictures of your work in the future here.

Jason