Live Remote & Interactive Demo Maui-Argentina

[Emiliano Achaval]

Gave a fun demo today. About 3 hours long. How to make a simple bowl on the lathe with just one tool, my staple, a 5/8 Doug Thompson gouge with the Ellsworth grind. The symposium was in Carcaraña, Santa Fe, Argentina.The one thing in common with all the remote demos is that the audience is captivated by the demonstrator, and they are very quiet... Since they did not have a mic other than the one on the lap top, I could not hear the instant feedback, so I did not know if my attempts at humor were understood or not. Later I heard that the demos was very good, included the humor... This was Argentina's second regional symposium, 47 woodturners attended. The technology is here to stay, the possibilities are endless. Live Remote & Interactive Demos is the way of the future, happening now.

 

[Dwight R Rutherford]

I have been following this since Alan Zenriech and yourself started the discussion. Have suggested our club (Nor Cal Woodturners Inc.) join the bandwagon. We had been under the impression that large screen tv's offered the best viewing experience. I notice it appears as tho you are using a projector for the above session. Which of the two gives the best views?

 

[hockenbery]

I have been following this since Alan Zenriech and yourself started the discussion. Have suggested our club (Nor Cal Woodturners Inc.) join the bandwagon. We had been under the impression that large screen tv's offered the best viewing experience. I notice it appears as tho you are using a projector for the above session. Which of the two gives the best views?

Dwight it really comes down to the room size and what you want folks in the back row to be able to see. Hi def tv will be the sharpest picture. Hi def projectors are almost as sharp too but few clubs own them so for clubs it is a trade off between a highdef tv and a lower definition projector.

A projector image is from 8ft wide on up. An 8 ft projector image is going to be almost twice as large as the image you get on a 60" tv which is about 4.5 feet wide. To get the same view of a tool tip or bead detail the camera must zoom in for the tv. The picture is just smaller.

Below is a useful chart. Many demonstrators show powerpoints for introductions.
Default pointsize in the body of a PowerPoint slide is 28 points
A 1/2" is 35 points in print.

This chart shows the viewing distance in feet for screen sizes and font size.
I suggest sticking with the 24 points for sizing your tv screen.

Realize that anyone sitting more than 30 feet from a 60" tv the will have difficulty seeing and 18 or 24 point fonts. They will also have difficulty seeing the tool tip unless the shot is zoomed in on the tool.
If you have a 60 inch tv an the seat in the corner of the last row is 20 feet away everyone is going to be able to see fine. If the last row is 40 feet from that 60" tv people sitting in the last 2 rows and on the sides of other rows near the back won't be able to see detail or read words.

Chart of longest viewing distance for a tv size and font size.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Our club suffered through a projector system for a year or so and we were far happier when we finally got two large 60" LCD screens. Now we don't have to sit in the dark and strain to see shadowy pictures and demonstrators are much happier with better lighting. Our club is fortunate to have a large facility that allows us to spread the seating out left and right and not need more than six or seven rows. We have several cameras that allow us to do PIP and zoom in close when necessary.

LCD screens will always have far better contrast ratio and brightness than a projections system. With projectors there is also light scattering due to internal reflections within in the lens which translates to fuzzier details. One of these days maybe 4K video may be affordable. 🙂

 

[hockenbery]

Now we don't have to sit in the dark and strain to see shadowy pictures and demonstrators are much happier with better lighting. Our club is fortunate to have a large facility that allows us to spread the seating out left and right and not need more than six or seven rows. We have several cameras that allow us to do PIP and zoom in close when necessary. 🙂

Bill,
4K projectors are on the market. Some have picture in picture...

You must have had either a poor projector or a defective bulb.
In the last two years I've done about 10 demos in different venues where projectors were used and all kept the room lights blazing with the exception of one symposium set up where the front lights were turned off because they were putting a glare on the screen. In my second demo the screen had been repositioned and all the lights were on.

The room you describe - wide with a few rows of seats and 2 60 inch TVs will give everyone a great view. Because they are all within 30 feet of the screen. Another plus for your room is not having to provide a space for a projector.

TV is usually a better solution for small rooms because the projector takes some seating space away unless it mounted in the ceiling.

 

[Bill Boehme]

We had more problems than I can remember, but you touched on some of them.

Probably the biggest was that the projector puts out a fixed maximum amount of light and if you decide to spread that amount of light over a huge screen that's larger than the recommended maximum size things are going to be dim. The human eye has a logarithmic response to light ... the result being if you increase the height and width by about 40%, it doubles the area of the projected image and the eye sees an image that is 25% as bright. The photography equivalent would be decreasing the aperture by two stops.

The lighting system wasn't very adaptable to our needs so lighting for the demonstrator also flooded the screen and washed out contrast even further. We probably also had a cheap screen.

The projected image was keystoned by a considerable amount because of how the projector and screen had to be placed. We have a large club and with a projector you only get one screen.

The cost of an LCD display is far less than a projection system. It's also much quicker and easier to set up..

When we took our projection system to SWAT it was a disaster. With our LED screens it was great and we were set up in one of the largest rooms and the visibility was excellent even from the back row.

The most important part of a video system is the camera and lens. A fast zoom lens and full HD camera is wonderful if a club can afford it. A 4K UHD video camera is still very expensive.

If it sounds like I didn't like our projection system, that's putting it very mildly. 😀

 

[hockenbery]

Seeing well from the back row is simply based on distance and the eyesight of the individuals.
People sitting further than 30 feet from a 60 inch monitor will see a clear picture but be unable to see detail or read normal sized fonts.

If 60 inch monitors work for long viewing distances we do not need jumbotrons and digital billboards. It is just simple science.

Easy to test. Put some 24 point text on the screen and have the back row read it.

Below is a screen shot from a demo. You can see the tool tip is roughly the size of 24 point text
If people can't read the text they can't see the tool tip contact detail.

 

[AlanZ]

it is not necessary to put monitors only in the front of the room. Positioning monitors mid audience, at the outside edges is doable.

The thing I like most about flat panels versus projectors is that you can keep the lights on in the room.

This is a great thing for the demonstrators, whether on site, or remote... much better interaction with the audience.

 

[hockenbery]

The thing I like most about flat panels versus projectors is that you can keep the lights on in the room.

The half dozen clubs near me that use projectors, all do so with the lights on.

There is no need to turn of the lights off to see a decent projector.
It may be the bulb is going bad. I have been in a few situations where the facilities folks set up the screen under a ceiling light so that it has glare from the light. This is fixed by moving the screen or Redirecting the light. Most clubs figure this out real quick. Shining a bright light in a tv makes it hard to see too.

I think I would rather use a projector than 4 or 6 TVs.
Maybe the answer is everyone viewing the presentation in their tablets.

TVS have the advantage in picture quality and they don't take seating space for the projector.
Projectors have the advantage of the large image that make it easy to see details.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Maybe if our club had this one. Our club's finances aren't quite ready for that yet. 😀 For a mere forty grand we could get this 98 inch LCD display. 😛

The big 60" LCD displays that we have cost about $200 apiece. I think it was a Black Friday special. They are no-name displays, but have amazing image quality, brightness, and resolution that I was surprised to see in a budget priced display.

 

[AlanZ]

Al,

Projectors are giving way to large screen TVs throughout the enterprise, for good reasons.

Both approaches have benefits and advocates.

If given a choice, I would select HDTV or large monitors, pretty much every time.

Oh, and yes, I was going to suggest tablets as an option, not so much for the general audience, but perhaps for folks who are visually impaired with distance vision.... much the same approach of assisted hearing devices that audience members can use in theatrical performances.

 

[hockenbery]

I'm an advocate of everyone in the audience being able to see detail and read power point text.

large screen tvs are the best choice in many but not all situations. Projectors are usually the best choice for large rooms.

The maximum distance from a chair to a 60" tv is 30 feet for being able to see.

Trade offs include foot print, ease of set up, picture quality, viewing distances, cost, storage space, cable runs.

In rooms where one or two tvs put every chair within 30 feet of a tv, tvs are gonna win.

If you have a fifty-eighty foot room the projector is going to win on cost, ease of set up, cable runs, & storage space because you will need 4-6 60" tvs.

What I am against is putting a couple of tvs in the front of a large room and having the back third of the room unable to see detail or read PowerPoint text.

When I was at SWAT a few years ago. A lady was sitting in the front row when I came in to set up.
She said she came to the first demo but had to sit in the back and couldn't see. I'm sure those tvs worked great in the club spaces. They just were not large enough for the back rows to see.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

We have a brand new digital projector, a club member bought it for us to use. Picture is surprisingly clear. Not as good as my 60 inch new tv in the house, but decent enough. Since I do most of everything for the club, along with just a few guys, if we buy a big tv, I would have to make room for it. The projector screen rolls up neatly away. And no matter how hard I have tried for decades, I have never been able to win the dust war. Maybe I turn too much, but its impossible to keep dust off things, a new big tv, would have to be cover, and uncover for the Sunday games and demo days... Great interesting facts by @hockenberry ! He would definitely be in charge of the video and audio equipment if decides to move to Maui!!

 

[john lucas]

At both clubs I go to we have TV. We have covers over the ones in the guys shop where we meet. In the school where we meet with the other club we have a huge box to store everything in.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

We had a TV till the first of the year and it got lines on it . The club decided for now instead of buying another to use the projector at the college we meet at . We use Vmix and the whole thing with 2 webcams has worked out well. I was using my laptop but the club has just purchased a used one for 18- so when I am gone someone else can do the video. Now we have to recruit and train some folks.

 

[AlanZ]

Gerald,

More and more clubs are integrating computers and webcams to improve the video of presentations.

It's nice to hear yet another success story.

Will you be at the AAW symposium in KC? I am leading a special interst night discussion where people will share their experiences on how live video has changed the way they present and/or receive woodturning sessions (demonstrations, tutoring, Facebook live, YouTube live, etc).

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Gerald,

More and more clubs are integrating computers and webcams to improve the video of presentations.

It's nice to hear yet another success story.

Will you be at the AAW symposium in KC? I am leading a special interst night discussion where people will share their experiences on how live video has changed the way they present and/or receive woodturning sessions (demonstrations, tutoring, Facebook live, YouTube live, etc).

Not going to make this one we have had a couple big vacations in the last two months and the club has Jimmy Clewes the first of June. Would love to make it as we lived in KC for 8 years.