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Level Tool Rest

E

Ed_McDonnell

Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
643
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Location
Central Florida
I happened to notice tonight that my tool rest (PM3520b) is not level. It's 1/8" lower at the left end than it is at the right end. I haven't noticed any problems while turning, but I suppose it might be a good idea to try and straighten it out.

Beating on it with a hammer to straighten it doesn't seem like all that good an idea. Any suggestions?

I started using a center saver about a year ago and I had a pretty good catch the first time I used it. I wonder if that could have bent the tool rest? It wasn't bad enough to bend the cutting blade and I would have expected that to give before the tool rest. Maybe it was out of level when I got it and I never noticed. Probably not though.

Ed
 
Before attempting to straighten, make sure it is not the banjo. Put the banjo straight across the bed, and move it towards the center of the bed until the tool rest ends are above the bed. Measure from the ends to the bed, and then without moving the banjo, swap ends of the toolrest and measure again. If the end that was low on the first set of measurements is still low, the toolrest is at fault. If the end that was low on the first set of measurements is now higher, then the banjo is at fault.

Regardless of the results of your measurements, I think the toolrest is cast iron, and any attempts at straightening will probably result in cracking.


If the measurements point to the banjo, check for an uneven build up of crud on the bottom side.
Later,

Dale M
 
I've broken a couple of tool rests with VERY nasty catches (too much speed and too much tool over hang) but never bent one. If the post moves up and down in the hole provided for it in the banjo it's unlikely (IMHO) that you bent the post and I can't imagine that you could have bent the tool rest itself.
You've got my curiosity peeked - let us know what you learn in your investigation. If you remove the tool rest from the banjo and lay a 90 degree angle between the post and the bottom of the tool rest on opposite sides you'll immediately see if there's there's any distortion.
 
I make from the way you said it that it's straight, just not level. That's a weld problem at the post, most likely. You might make a whoop-de-doop in the rest trying the pipewrench(es) trick on it that would be worse than the straight but slanted you have now. That is, IF you get away with trying to bend a casting. Usually a bad thing, even with good malleable iron. You could touch up the post angle if you like, but is it really hurting you any? How long have you been using it this way?

I'm a shaving and tactile feedback type, so I imagine my tools would simply rise a bit to hold the same cut on the drop end. I may be doing it already. Betting your post will have a lot of people checking the level on theirs, as I will later.

But I'd say it's another one of those differences that is no difference. People can buy micrometers and measure something, then obsess over differences and tolerances that are meaningless or unobtainable with hand work just because they discovered something. This might well be one of those things.

Had to add the "es" to pipewrench. One is useless, of course, as my recent work on my water supply demonstrates. But, in fairness, I may have said "grab the pipewrench off the rack in the garage" rather than "pipewrenches." That's her story and she's stickin' it to me.
 
Thanks for all the input. I rechecked everything and here's some additional information and clarification:

  1. It is definitely the tool rest and not the banjo.
  2. The rest part of the tool rest is straight and flat.
  3. With the rest on the lathe bed (post up) a square held next to the post shows it is angled to the rest.
  4. The tool rest does not appear to be welded. I don't think the post was machined from the casting, but I'm not sure. It looks like the rest casting had a pocket that the post was inserted into and somehow secured.
  5. I checked the width of the tool rest at both ends thinking that over time I might have filed one end more than the other when removing nicks. The shape of the tool rest makes measuring difficult, but as best as I could measure the tool rest was the same size at both ends.
  6. The post is straight and does not have a bend in it.
  7. Given the design, I don't see how the tool rest / post joint could bend without breaking??


It is not a problem as far as turning is concerned. I have been able to turn perfect cylinders without any problem whatsoever so I seem to be able to compensate for the angle without any problem. I'm not going to do anything about it, but I am curious if anyone else's rest is angled???

I only noticed it because I was trying to set my rest at a very specific height. As I was looking at the scale behind the rest I noticed that the top of the rest was not parallel to the spindle I had just turned in the lathe. I also learned something else interesting about my 3520b as a result of this. The specs say that the lathe swing is 20". I wanted my rest at dead center so I set it at 10", but what I was trying to do wasn't quite working as expected. Turns out that the swing on my 3520b is 20.50" which makes center height 10.25". Looks like I have a bonus half inch of swing. Whooo Hooo!!!

Ed
 
level

but I am curious if anyone else's rest is angled???
Click to expand...

put one delta down in your survey as level 😀
 
Ed, I haven't experienced anything unusual with my PM 3520B tool rest but now, of course, I'll have to measure it and see if I have anything like you describe with yours.

However, while setting up my captured hollowing system last week, I set the cutter height to center (10" I thought) and discovered that my lathe was also given and addtional 1/2" of swing. 🙂
 
I don't have any tool rests that are welded to the post, looks to me like they're swaged or somehow sweated into place. Analyzing your description of the tests it appears to me that the hole in the rest, into which the post was pressed, was not bored at right angles to the top of the rest during manufacture. That's just speculation of course. No matter, however, if it's not causing you any problems during the turning process. I use the tool rest primarily as a guide for parallelism while maintaining a uniform vertical position of the cutting edge of the tool on the work piece by controlling the position of the tool's handle. So if one end of my tool rest is a bit lower than the other it wouldn't affect my work any more than it does yours, given your current circumstances. If it ain't broke, don't' fix it. 😉
 
My N3K is both square and welded. Told ya you'd make a lot of people look!

Of course, those who have tried to cut 16" on the N3K can tell you that it's the other figure Teknatool gives, the 400mm, which is the truth. You've got my quarter and someone else's!
 
MichaelMouse said:
... You've got my quarter and someone else's!
Click to expand...

Is that "quarter" a wager or the actual difference in inches between 400mm and sixteen inches? Forgive me, MM, but I couldn't resist 😀
 
If you've gotten used to turning with the rest not level and can turn perfect cylinders, you might run the risk of not being able to do so with a level rest. Just a thought.😀
 
I made a homemade tool rest for my Nova Comet many years ago and welded it on so it wasn't level. I've used it that way for at least 8 years with no problems. I look at the cut and raise or lower the handle to get the shape I'm after. Apparently the crooked tool rest hasn't caused a problem for me.
 
I would say that it has always been crooked and that you have not noticed it before now. Typically, tool rests and posts are cast as a single piece. They are then mounted in a metal lathe and the post is turned to size. How well it was mounted in the lathe determines how straight it will be with respect to the top of the rest. I have noticed recently that the machining quality on tool rest posts has deteriorated considerably. And, I have even noticed on some small tool rests for mini lathes that the post is no longer being turned -- they just cast them undersized and let them rattle around in the hole in the base.

In any event, if it is gray iron, you can't bend or weld it because it will crack in either case. If it is ductile iron, you may be able to work it without breaking it, but the way that things are being built so cheaply these days, I wouldn't count on it being ductile iron unless from the UK or OZ. The really old lathes were built of ductile iron.
 
Ed, many years ago I had an incident where I carelessly made contact with the revolving workpiece before the tool was on the rest. The tool came down and hit the rest with a very frightening 'bang'. Obviously I stopped to see what damage I'd done, and found that I'd bent the toolrest down at one end. It was really bent, one end about half an inch lower than the other. The rest itself was a casting but the toolpost ended in a threaded section which screwed into the bottom of the rest, and it was the narrower threaded section of the post which had bent. I put the post in a vice and, with the rest screwed on I belted it firmly with a big hammer until it was level again. It worked, but you couldn't do that with a welded joint (I don't think so, anyway).

I was lucky none of my fingers were under the tool when it hit the rest!

Bob
 
I've 6 or 7 that all are level. Some are solid, some a post screwed to the rest, but all are level. That said, I can't see any reason that not being level would be a major problem - as long as you're aware of it, you should be able to work around it.
 
It's parallel, if not level

I have a 3520A and the rest is parallel to the ways and straight across. I'm assuming that my lathe is as level as the floor of my "studio."

It used to be a shop, but I installed a through the wall air conditioner, so now it is a studio 🙂

The post is not centered in the casting at the base of the horizontal part of the rest. It appears to be centered between the ends. It is at a right angle to the straight part of the top surface of the rest, so all is good.

Clem
 
This pin rest was welded up by myself, and is at least 1/8th inch difference between one end and the other. It's never been a problem.

otis of cologne
 

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  • OWBS with spring (2).JPG
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'Level' toolrest

I have a Oneway 2436, and two straight toolrests. One is bent, that is slightly lower on the left side, if you are facing the toolrest/lathe. A fellow woodturning friend was at my shop about a year ago and was watching me turn, and noticed the bend.

The only thing that we can conclude is that, when I was 'learning to turn', I had a lot of catches. And the reason for the difference on one side, is I had the "I had to turn large pieces of wood because I could" disease, but at the time had neither the bandsaw, nor the chainsaw to properly bring the blank into balance before mounting on the lathe back then. So when roughing out bowls, I spent a LOT of DONK time on that end of the lathe in the beginning.

I have a much better chainsaw, bandsaw, and better turning skills now, and spend very little time DONKING. As for how to get the toolrest straight again, it was suggested to use a belt sander with 36 grit. I bought a new toolrest, and maybe will try the belt sander method to straighten the other rest, when I get a 'roundtuit'.

I still get teased by some the guys in the club about how I bent a Oneway toolrest!😱
 
teased

I still get teased by some the guys in the club about how I bent a Oneway toolrest
Click to expand...

i wonder what do they say about breaking a delta tool rest??? 😀
 
Donna Banfield said:
I have a Oneway 2436, and ... I spent a LOT of DONK time on that end of the lathe in the beginning.... now ... spend very little time DONKING.
Click to expand...


Donna - I like that term "donking". First time I've heard it. The way I look at it is that all that donking was great practice for turning winged and natural edge bowls. 😀

Even with the chainsaw, bandsaw and everything else I still do my share of donking. Sometimes it's just easier to put an odd shaped blank on the lathe and not bother trying to round it out with the other tools.

Maybe that accounts for the angle in my tool rest as well.

Ed
 
steamingd said:
Otis,

Thanks for the pics.

Do you also use the rest for metal spinning?

Later,

Dale M
Click to expand...



Nope, steamingd........

Never tried metal spinning.



Donna.........

Never heard of "donking" either.......at first I didn't get it, but realized when you bring your wood blank to round: donk,donk,donk,donk,donk.......as long as you don't get any "bonks", everything works out!!!! Heh,heh,heh!😀😱

otis of cologne
 
Otis,

Curious here, what is the purpose of the pin and pin holes in the tool rest?

Is the pin used as a fulcrum for controlled arcing of the tool into the wood on initial rounding?

I've welded up a tool rest with pin holes for metal spinning, but it does not have nearly as much slope on the backside as yours and uses a beefier pin.

Later,

Dale M
 
The pin is an excellent fulcrum for users of hook tools, surely. They can be used very aggressively when the objective is to "git 'er done" on a lathe with continuous rotation. I found that altering the cutting angle to force the tool down into the rest versus back into the pin was more effective for my purposes. Swinging a long-winged gouge heavily into a blank wouldn't require any back groove to resist running outward off the edge initially either, though a gentle start and a modest groove will hold even an aggressive cut if you take the time to make one.

It will limit kickback on a heavily applied scraper inside a narrow neck, avoiding damage to the entry point. Once again, you may trade a bit of time for tooling, and, in my experience, get a better interior by shearing the scraper rather than levering it into the wood.

As to the slope of the rest, you can see the advantage of being able to drop the handle of a gouge, even when hollowing, encouraging the waste to follow gravity down the flute rather than packing and potentially catching inside the form. Lower the rest below center by at least the depth of flute to take advantage.
 
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steamingd said:
Otis,

Curious here, what is the purpose of the pin and pin holes in the tool rest?

Is the pin used as a fulcrum for controlled arcing of the tool into the wood on initial rounding?

I've welded up a tool rest with pin holes for metal spinning, but it does not have nearly as much slope on the backside as yours and uses a beefier pin.

Later,

Dale M
Click to expand...

Dale......

Interesting post by MichaelMouse, but I don't think he's used a pin rest to it's full advantage. This is not to detract from the obvious great knowledge of turning I've seen from him at other times.

The slope is one of my additions to this pin rest. It was originally a commercially made pin rest, but there is little resemblance between the current configuration and as it was when I first purchased it. In it's original form the rest itself was just square stock with some holes drilled in it. The post was welded to the center. I cut the post off and re-welded it to the end of the rest......this allowed me to get deeper into the interior of bowls. The slope and rounded top allows me to adjust the cutting angle of the tool, while still keeping the horizontal fulcrum as close as possible to the work surface. This pin rest would be better if it had some amount of curvature to it.

Yes, the pin acts as a vertical fulcrum. It is both advantageous for hogging out the interior of a bowl for drying......and finish cuts. I'm mainly speaking about gouge work, but on occasion, I have used it for scraper work, but seldom for that. MM is correct that the start cut can be made without an initial "back cut". I'd practice on a scrap piece of wood first on this technique.......because it gets a little tricky, and dangerous for the inexperienced. (I've had a few pretty wild catches learning how to do this correctly! 😱 )

No, I never use the pin rest for initial rounding. The pin rest is best suited to interior hogging and shaping of bowls. I suppose one could use the pin rest for exterior work, but after trying it that way, I decided against it. You can make that call for yourself. There are other turners who are using pin rests for exterior work. If you check around on some of the galleries attached to this forum, there is another turner who has displayed a couple of home-made pin rests for his purposes. I can't recall off hand who it was, but it seems like it was someone who is a regular contributor to this forum. One thing I like about one of his pin rests, is he has a CURVED one.......I'm envious! 😀

Another misconception of MM's, is the thought that the pin is used for levering in a scraper, instead of letting the scraper do a shear cut. Like I said, I seldom use the pin in conjunction with a scraper, but those times that I do, it is used strictly for steadying the scraper......not really a fulcrum, or leverage point.

I find the pin rest to be useful for my purposes, but I understand fully that not every turner sees it as a benefit over the techniques they've learned without one.

otis of cologne
 
Nice to hear how you, specifically use the pin. In general, of course, the uses outlined in my post above are most common.
 
MM; Odie,

Thanks for the explantions. Perhaps I've not enough experience to fully understand the usages that have been described.

The description of the use with hook tools does fetch a recollection of the anchoring the tool to the rest with the left hand. The use of the pin would reduce the effort, and perhaps help with control. Seems to me that the usage of hook tools yields stock removal rates that fit the description of 'hogging out' (without the use a pin).

The visualization of using the pin to steady a scraper for making final clean-up shear cuts makes me inclined to give it a try. I suppose that requires rounding the corner that makes contact with the pin then in addition to the corner on the rest.

The advantage of the slope on the rest for wood turning is apparent. My in-house fabricated rest was for metal spinning, but was given a bit of slope for some advantage in tool angles for clean-up on spinning forms. The post was welded off center, but to the opposite side from the one in the pic. Odie, it sounds like the rest you purchased was meant for metal spinning with a square cross section. I have a factory rest for a Powermatic 90 with a roughly square cross section (it and the PM 90 are gathering dust).

When using a gouge with the pin as a fulcrum, is the gouge used in a center out fashion? It seems that if the gouge were swung into the wood in an OD towards center motion, the pin would be in the way shortly after starting the cut. Perhaps my mental image of the use is missing something.

Later,

Dale M
 
steamingd said:
MM; Odie,

Thanks for the explantions. Perhaps I've not enough experience to fully understand the usages that have been described.


The visualization of using the pin to steady a scraper for making final clean-up shear cuts makes me inclined to give it a try. I suppose that requires rounding the corner that makes contact with the pin then in addition to the corner on the rest.


When using a gouge with the pin as a fulcrum, is the gouge used in a center out fashion? It seems that if the gouge were swung into the wood in an OD towards center motion, the pin would be in the way shortly after starting the cut. Perhaps my mental image of the use is missing something.

Later,

Dale M
Click to expand...


It depends on the kind of scraper handle you have. When hollowing with the types with round shafts and scraping inserts, the dual fulcrum is a great asset, because you don't have a bevel to steady the cutter end. You stuff the shaft into the pin and down on the rest with your left, swinging and/or pushing with the right.

The pin as a gouge fulcrum is used pretty much as it used to steady the hook tools. Outside in, as in from 35 to 25 sec remaining in this video. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=HollowTwo001.flv You can get even further under if you care to stress your elbow for the sake of a few seconds time. Once you get the piece round enough to support a bevel, I think it works better to steady on that, which is why I don't use a pin except in real deep hollowing. For normal bowl configurations the poke and roll or poke and pull from inside out are aggressive enough as long as you can get the shavings rolling downhill before they jam anything.

The other use, as a limiter to travel of the tool shaft, is a good way to protect against a slide right that damages a narrow opening.
 
MM,

Thanks for the link. Trying to put the video together with the mental imagery. It looks as though the pin then helps with starting the cut by preventing an outward run of the tool, and can speed stock removal rates by reducing or eliminating the need to keep some bevel in contact as the gouge is swept across the interior.

Thanks again,
Dale M
 
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