Leaning over the lathe to do undercut rims.....back brace.

[Odie]

I've probably had ten back braces over the years to keep from straining my back with my fixed headstock Woodfast lathe. When I do my undercut rims, it gets especially hard on my back. I've been using this Copperfit X-back brace with its X configuration and stiff staves for about a month now, and it's the best brace I've had to date.

Just passing along what has been a great back support from someone who has had a difficult time with back issues while lathe turning.

=o=



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[hughie]

I ran into these sorts of issues earlier on in this spinny adventure and looked at trying to minimise the issue, not that I had a bad back. So I actually raised my lathe up till the centre height was equal to my arm pit, this achieved several things for me. It allows very easy access during hollowing , I can actually deep hollow without bending. Having a short bed lathe helps here as it allows me to get around to both sides of the lathe. OK my tailstock spends a lot time on the floor as I do mainly hollow vessels. Prior to all this I actually bought a back brace, I still have it somewhere in the house. But the point is well taken Odie a bad back can ruin the whole venture of turning, thanks for posting.

 

[Odie]

I actually raised my lathe up till the centre height was equal to my arm pit,

Thanks hughie.....yeah, we have to do whatever we can to deal with the issues that come up while lathe turning. I've always felt a pivoting headstock lathe would be ideal for my particular set of needs.......and this X-Back brace seems to be the best solution until then....

=o=

 

[Lyle Jamieson]

Are you talking about undercut rims for bowls or doing bulbous hollow form??

 

[William Rogers]

I understand the back pain. My previous lathe was too low. It took a while, but iu developed back problems. I sold that lathe and got the Robust AB. One of the main selling points for me was the adjustable height. I also have my lathe set higher than the run of thumb elbow/spindle height. But not to my arm pits like Hughie.

@Odie Sounds like you are one back brace away from a new lathe. I’m guessing the Vicmarc 240 would be high on your list since it has the rotating headstock. I’m fine with my AB sliding headstock.

 

[Phil Hamel]

Glad that works for you! Will see if they have anything for me.
I have two bad disk in my neck and leaning over the lathe bed and wearing the safety helmet do a job on me.
The Nova I'm getting pivots and slides. Hopefully this will help. Luckily the arthritis in my thumbs gives out before my neck! Lol!

 

[John K Jordan]

When I do my undercut rims, it gets especially hard on my back. I've been using this Copperfit X-back brace with its X configuration and stiff staves for about a month now, and it's the best brace I've had to date.

Just passing along what has been a great back support from someone who has had a difficult time with back issues while lathe turning.

Nice, thanks. I have several I use at times, not at the lathe but around the farm (and for insane motorcycle dirt biking in years past) - it’s nice to get a recommendation based on experience!

BTW, I’ve found with working on some pieces, both the insides of some bowls and especially in undercut rims, I can see and better and sometimes make better cuts if I turn with the lathe in reverse - feels much more “natural” to me. I’ve got a couple of special tools, especially one reverse-curved Hunter tool, made just for undercutting with the lathe spinning in reverse.

JKJ

 

[Hugh]

Glad that works for you! Will see if they have anything for me.
I have two bad disk in my neck and leaning over the lathe bed and wearing the safety helmet do a job on me.
The Nova I'm getting pivots and slides. Hopefully this will help. Luckily the arthritis in my thumbs gives out before my neck! Lol!

Phil,
One - go see an occupational therapist about the arthritis in your hand. They have exercises to strengthen your hands. They will also tell you how to hold your tools better so it does not effect the hands so much.
Two - there is a thumb brace out there made by "Push" I think. Costly little devils at $125 on Amazon, but they really help with the thumb arthritis. OT recommended these to me and they help.
The exercises help also.

 

[Odie]

Are you talking about undercut rims for bowls or doing bulbous hollow form??

Lyle......Too many turners are now doing hollow forms. It's my intention to do something where the competition is light. I've found this to be the case with my undercut rims where the inside curve and quality of the finish has to be the same as anywhere else on the bowl.....this is not the case for most hollow forms. For me, learning how to do my undercut rims well was a long-time learning curve with the creation of many specially designed tools and jigs. As with anywhere else on the bowls, the tool finish quality is important. The tool finish needs to be superb, which allows for sanding to be minimal.

Note: Some turners label what I'd call "inward slanting" bowl walls to be undercut......I make a distinction between the two.

=o=

 

[Mike Brazeau]

The Hunter tool does a great job on undercut rims and you do not have to be a contortionist to use it.

 

[Odie]

The Hunter tool does a great job on undercut rims and you do not have to be a contortionist to use it.

I have several Hunter tools, and since then I've designed my own tools....I haven't used my Hunter tools in years.

 

[Neil S]

I stopped turning inboard, well for about 99% of the time, about 25yrs ago. I doubt I would still be turning if I hadn't done that.

I began doing that on the rear of the headstock on one of my old Woodfasts, which had no reverse switch, so that came with some challenges like needing lefthand threaded faceplates and hard to come by chuck adaptors, plus needing a second set of some turning tools. The purpose of the outboard rig on the Woodfast was for turning larger pieces than would not fit inboard, but I preferred turning there so much that it became default turning position.

So, when Woodfast later came out with its first rotating headstock model I jumped at the opportunity to go over to that. I wouldn't use a lathe now that didn't allow me to comfortably turn outboard and my back thanks me every day for that.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

I feel your pain, Odie. I use an outboard bed on my Oneway for this type of work, far easier than inboard. You have been talking about moving to a pivoting head lathe for quite some time, what's the holdup? Life's too short...

 

[Mark Jundanian]

I actually raised my lathe up till the centre height was equal to my arm pit,

That's very interesting. I wish I could see how you work at that height. I've tried sitting on a stool, which puts the lathe at a similar height. I find it awkward, but sitting doesn't offer as much mobility as standing.

 

[John K Jordan]

I have several Hunter tools, and since then I've designed my own tools....I haven't used my Hunter tools in years.

Do you have some you never plan to use again? Which ones? Trade for wood or something? I have some I use almost every time for some turning.

one of my old Woodfasts, which had no reverse switch, so that came with some challenges like needing lefthand threaded faceplates

A friend who turned both inboard and outboard with no reverse on an old reeves drive Rockwell-Delta turned all his big bowls on a faceplate with dual threading he said it worked well.

I just gave him one of my spare Jet1642s and found a good home for the old Delta with a beginning turner - everyone is happy. (Especially me, with more room in my shop)

 

[Lyle Jamieson]

Lyle......Too many turners are now doing hollow forms. It's my intention to do something where the competition is light. I've found this to be the case with my undercut rims where the inside curve and quality of the finish has to be the same as anywhere else on the bowl.....this is not the case for most hollow forms. For me, learning how to do my undercut rims well was a long-time learning curve with the creation of many specially designed tools and jigs. As with anywhere else on the bowls, the tool finish quality is important. The tool finish needs to be superb, which allows for sanding to be minimal.

Note: Some turners label what I'd call "inward slanting" bowl walls to be undercut......I make a distinction between the two.

=o=

Odie, I sometimes stand behind the lathe for undercut rims. Allows me to see and get a bevel supported cut. Depending on the tip angle of your gouge you can only do part of the bowl from there. Remember the grain orientation changes from the largest diameter to the rim for undercuts. I sheer scrape that area for downhill-supported cuts. I also stick the tool rest pointing inside the bowl along the wall surface parallel to the lathe bed, not out on the rim of the bowl perpendicular to the lathe bed.

 

[hughie]

Thanks hughie.....yeah, we have to do whatever we can to deal with the issues that come up while lathe turning. I've always felt a pivoting headstock lathe would be ideal for my particular set of needs.......and this X-Back brace seems to be the best solution until then....

=o=

I had a lathe that the headstock pivoted, it was unfortunately a cheap Chinese knock off. But I quickly realized if I could stand upright without bending it would be far better off, along with a short bed it would give me around 300' access on the lathe. So elevating lathe became obvious and too my great delight its a roaring success. I probably spend more time at the end of the bed when hollowing that anywhere else. But its horses for courses, its probably not for everyone.

 

[hughie]

That's very interesting. I wish I could see how you work at that height. I've tried sitting on a stool, which puts the lathe at a similar height. I find it awkward, but sitting doesn't offer as much mobility as standing.

Mark I do have an image somewhere, if not will have to enlist a family member to do the honours.

 

[Odie]

Do you have some you never plan to use again? Which ones? Trade for wood or something? I have some I use almost every time for some turning.

Howdy John.......Ya, I've got quite a few tools that I'll probably never use again stashed away. I keep telling myself I could sell some of them......but, you know what? I've gotten rid of a few things in the past, and ended up regretting it later on. Since I'm not desperate for the money, I'll keep them for now!

=o=

 

[John K Jordan]

Howdy John.......Ya, I've got quite a few tools that I'll probably never use again stashed away. I keep telling myself I could sell some of them......but, you know what? I've gotten rid of a few things in the past, and ended up regretting it later on. Since I'm not desperate for the money, I'll keep them for now!

=o=

I resemble that remark!
That's probably why I have WAY too many tools - I have given some to students but ack, what If I need them some day???
Years ago someone mentioned their collection of Thompson tools. Long time ago, can't remember - maybe it was a dozen tools or so. Just for fun I counted the Thompsons I could find without a deep search. There were over 50. I feel so ashamed.

Contrary to some logic, I also collect old, sometimes horrible tools - some I buy cheap, some people give to me. I keep a box full in the back - an amazing resource when a student needs a tool or so but is, perhaps, a little short on money. I also use them to grind a variety of special tools. (Note that many old tools are not HSS and some are only hardened for the first few inches.)

When I think of how bad some tools are I'm always reminded of the incredible craftsman who had a little storefront shop in Venice, Italy where he sold things he had made. When I pulled out a few finger tops to give him he wanted to show me his lathe - went in the back room and brought back a Dewalt electric drill, clamped it to the table. Used a stick with a nail for a tailstock. Ground tools from old screwdrivers. I so wanted to send him a Jet mini.



JKJ

 

[Odie]

Odie, I sometimes stand behind the lathe for undercut rims. Allows me to see and get a bevel supported cut. Depending on the tip angle of your gouge you can only do part of the bowl from there. Remember the grain orientation changes from the largest diameter to the rim for undercuts. I sheer scrape that area for downhill-supported cuts. I also stick the tool rest pointing inside the bowl along the wall surface parallel to the lathe bed, not out on the rim of the bowl perpendicular to the lathe bed.

Hi Lyle.......This is very good advice, and I have a few comments...

I did go to the back side of the lathe a few years ago. This might be good advice for other turners, but my space limitations on the backside of my lathe was a problem for me. I even went as far as fabricating a cushioned hip brace in which I could lean on back there, but eventually I gave it up because of the space limitations.

Absolutely, the positioning of the tool rest close to the cutting action of the lathe tools does help a lot. Many turners don't have curved, or otherwise modified tool rests, so that limits them on how well they can position the tooI rest closer to the cut. I have several modified, and curved tool rests that allow me to get closer.

For my undercut rims, there is a point where the direction of the cut needs to be reversed for the final sand-able surface. Shear scraping with and without negative rake is a large component of the final surface.

I am so happy to get yours, as well as a few other very experienced turner's thoughts on subjects that I bring up. We have such a great symphony of established opinions on this AAW forum!

=o=

 

[DON FRANK]

This is why I love a sliding headstock lathe. I'd much rather work off the end of the lathe than trying to bend over. It's a moot point if you don't have one but I'm amazed the number of turners that have one and still don't use it to reduce the back stress from hollowing a bowl etc.

 

[John K Jordan]

This is why I love a sliding headstock lathe. I'd much rather work off the end of the lathe than trying to bend over. It's a moot point if you don't have one but I'm amazed the number of turners that have one and still don't use it to reduce the back stress from hollowing a bowl etc.

I'm one who has lathes with sliding headstocks but for several good reasons never slide them to the end. Fortunately there is lots of room for variety in this field! I think the primary reason to slide or not slide is what you like to turn, and to a lesser extent, how you've learned to work effectively.

 

[robo hippy]

To me, the whole point of the sliding headstock is so that you get a bowl lathe and a spindle lathe. I never learned to turn on a long bed lathe. My first lathe was a long bed, and when the Woodcraft opened locally and I saw the 3520A, I bought it. It just made sense. I no longer had lower back issues from leaning over the lathe. Still, my favorite bowl lathe is my Vicmark 240 with the pivoting head. Best headstock design out there.

robo hippy

 

[hughie]

Hi Lyle.......This is very good advice, and I have a few comments...

I did go to the back side of the lathe a few years ago. This might be good advice for other turners, but my space limitations on the backside of my lathe was a problem for me. I even went as far as fabricating a cushioned hip brace in which I could lean on back there, but eventually I gave it up because of the space limitations.

Absolutely, the positioning of the tool rest close to the cutting action of the lathe tools does help a lot. Many turners don't have curved, or otherwise modified tool rests, so that limits them on how well they can position the tooI rest closer to the cut. I have several modified, and curved tool rests that allow me to get closer.

For my undercut rims, there is a point where the direction of the cut needs to be reversed for the final sand-able surface. Shear scraping with and without negative rake is a large component of the final surface.

I am so happy to get yours, as well as a few other very experienced turner's thoughts on subjects that I bring up. We have such a great symphony of established opinions on this AAW forum!

=o=

I have a curved tool rest that is my go to tool rest, maybe 90% of the time. DIY 25x25mm square around 300 long with the post off set of centre by a third. Would not be with out for the turning I do. The holes on the rest are for an Iron's gate set up used mainly in deep hollowing.

 

[Neil S]

I have a curved tool rest that is my go to tool rest, maybe 90% of the time.

Ditto

I do have one long and one short tool rest, somewhere, if only I can find them on the infrequent occasion when I need those...

Some pro turners frown on those of us that use curved tool rests. More often than not they began their craft with spindle turning and made the necessary adjustments to continue using their straight tool rests when they began doing bowl work. They give reasons why curved rests are not needed or lead to bad practices, which I have never understood. I have never found that my modest collection of curved rests aren't better for me for bowl turning and the occasional hollow form. It is also my observation that those pro turners who are wedded to their straight rests when bowl turning do a lot more tool rest repositioning than I need to do with my curved rests.

But, each to their own, and if just a couple of straight tool rests does everything you need your tool rests to do for you then curved ones will be one less thing to clutter up your workshop!