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Lathe game

First off......the fulcrum, or "overhang" of tool off the tool rest is way too long. Tool rest needs to be much closer.

There are others problems, but I'll let the others have their input.
 
Flute up hacking off chips from the middle not whittling off shavings from the end. Not one of theirs, but the guy who wrote the piece on SRG has the same problem.
 
extra tools on headstock.....he would be lucky if it just stuck in his foot instead of his body mass 🙁😱
 
It was a simple test and didn't take a minute to spot all the errors, but I saw more than the five that FWW identified. The stance is all wrong. He would not be able to move without getting out of balance or shifting his feet. Both of those problems would make it more difficult to get a nice smooth cut.
 
I'd have to agree with the others that we have identified five errors so far, but there are more.......

That unbuttoned, and loose cuff on his right shirt sleeve would be one more error, and just as much a safety factor as those loose tools on the headstock.......

We now have six......tool rest position, correct positioning of the roughing gouge flute, loose tools on headstock, incorrect hand position, stance, loose clothing.........

Any more? At this point, I don't see any, but I wouldn't be surprised if I've missed one, or more.......I never could find Waldo, anyway! 😀

ooc
 
Odie, the cuff is one of the system recognized errors.

It took me about 30 seconds, and 5 clicks to identify the five errors.

Nothing too surprising in the game, and hopefully will be a reminder to some.

I was a little confused when I first clicked on the page because I was using an iPad at the time, and Flash isn't supported, so I didn't see the large clickable image at the top of the page. When I visited when using a computer, the game was displayed properly.
 
Flute up hacking off chips from the middle not whittling off shavings from the end. Not one of theirs, but the guy who wrote the piece on SRG has the same problem.
A spindle roughing gouge, when used for roughing down is presented to the work at right angles, the flute facing upwards, handle low.

You can use the whole cutting edge by rotating the cutting edge, still at right angles to the work.

It can also be used to get a very clean cut by presenting the tool at 45 degrees to the work and using the cutting edge like a skew chisel provided that the edge that you are cutting with is supported by the tool rest.
 
A spindle roughing gouge, when used for roughing down is presented to the work at right angles, the flute facing upwards, handle low.

Really? Do you stuff the tip of your knife into a piece of wood and stab, or do you slice at a skew angle to direction of travel as you whittle? Same applies here. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=PeelandPare.mp4 You want to put your off hand over the gouge rather than under, as here for clarity.

Not to mention you get a smooth surface for less effort and danger as well.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Whittling-with-Rough.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/06-Enter-and-Peel.jpg

Doesn't matter what it is, knife, plane, chisel or gouge. When it's wood versus edge, slice and skew will do the best.
 
Took me a while to find the fifth one, which for me was the one that identified not wearing safety glasses under the face shield.

Safety glass + a face shield? Why not full body armor? A wood spike that makes it through a face shield could just as easily make it to your heart. Or hit a critical artery in the neck.

I'm all for safety, but safety glasses + a face shield as a general recommendation for all turning struck me as overkill. It seems to me that focusing on developing good turning skills and taking precautions suited to the situation is a more appropriate message. I guess that is harder to make a click point in a picture though.

I can't remember the last time I did something where safety glasses + face shield would have made the difference between safe and unsafe. Probably because adding safety glasses behind my face shield would not have made that thing safe, so I decided not to do it.

Ed
 
Safety glasses

I wear both a faceshield and safety glasses when sanding. I have found that occasionally dust would make it up under the faceshield and bother my eyes, and the safety glasses prevent that. I also always wear my dust mask of course (which the guy in the picture is not), but I have not yet been able to spring the bucks for a Trend Airshield or the like.
 
I wear both a faceshield and safety glasses when sanding. I have found that occasionally dust would make it up under the faceshield and bother my eyes, and the safety glasses prevent that. I also always wear my dust mask of course (which the guy in the picture is not), but I have not yet been able to spring the bucks for a Trend Airshield or the like.

I never did catch the faceshield error until after my last post.......

My prescription glasses are safety rated, and I always wear those.

John, you might want to get an industrial respirator in the mean time. I wear mine often, even though I have a powered Airstream unit. Usually slip on the respirator when I know I won't be needing it for long.......it's a good back-up system, and about $30 retail. Most hardware stores have them in stock.

ooc
 

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A spindle roughing gouge, when used for roughing down is presented to the work at right angles, the flute facing upwards, handle low...

Really?....

That is the way that Nick Cook teaches his students to use the SRG for the basic roughing cut when I took a class from him a number of years ago.

Safety glass + a face shield? Why not full body armor? A wood spike that makes it through a face shield could just as easily make it to your heart. Or hit a critical artery in the neck.

I'm all for safety, but safety glasses + a face shield as a general recommendation for all turning struck me as overkill. It seems to me that focusing on developing good turning skills and taking precautions suited to the situation is a more appropriate message. I guess that is harder to make a click point in a picture though.

I can't remember the last time I did something where safety glasses + face shield would have made the difference between safe and unsafe. Probably because adding safety glasses behind my face shield would not have made that thing safe, so I decided not to do it.

Ed

Ed, I think that your feelings about this probably reflect the way that the great majority of woodturners feel about this. However, for those who work in a manufacturing environment where face and eye protection are necessary then face shields plus safety goggles would be the bare minimum requirement and other PPE may be required. The machinery would also have safety guards to the extent possible to minimize the possibility of launching projectiles towards the operator.

If you have purchased an ANSI Z87.1 face shield that is certified for impact protection in the last few years, you may have noticed an attached warning (on the bag in the case of a 3M faceshield that I bought last week). stating that face shields are only considered secondary eye protection. They provide only limited eye and face impact protection for certain flying particles, liquids, and splash. For eye protection, safety goggles must be worn in addition to the face shield. The warning also states that faceshields do not provide protection against severe impacts from things such as fragmenting grinding wheels.

One could draw a parallel to a fragmenting turning where the wood has internal flaws such as ring shake and splits.
 
Really? Do you stuff the tip of your knife into a piece of wood and stab, or do you slice at a skew angle to direction of travel as you whittle? Same applies here. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=PeelandPare.mp4 You want to put your off hand over the gouge rather than under, as here for clarity.

Not to mention you get a smooth surface for less effort and danger as well.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Whittling-with-Rough.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/06-Enter-and-Peel.jpg

Doesn't matter what it is, knife, plane, chisel or gouge. When it's wood versus edge, slice and skew will do the best.
Thousands of production turners have got it wrong for hundreds of years?😀

What you are basically doing is a finish cut.
 
Thousands of production turners have got it wrong for hundreds of years?😀

What you are basically doing is a finish cut.

Nope, they shaved downhill with all their tools. Basic principles again. Finish quality at roughing speed? Guess that's what old Frank Pain meant when he said the wood would let you know how it wishes to be cut.

The problem with "Joe says" as justification is, as always, that Joe may not have figured it out.

Here's another way to rough down a cylinder, shown slowly. No credit claimed, because, as above, the boys at High Wycombe and elsewhere had been making "finish cuts" on riven wood this way for a long time. http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/?action=view&current=CylinderRough.mp4 When you're making chair parts on piecework, finishing cuts are bread on the table.
 
That is the way that Nick Cook teaches his students to use the SRG for the basic roughing cut when I took a class from him a number of years ago.

Yeah, I used to wonder where people got the weird idea that a tool in use for so long had suddenly become dangerous. I read the article he wrote, and still found no valid reason. Proper use of the tool exposed neither the operator nor the tool to the dangers he assigned them. Then I saw him on YouTube with the gouge, and I understood. He might as well be punching a parting tool into the whirling piece as stuffing the gouge in. If he tried that on the edge of a cross-grain piece, it'd feed him the handle or slit his fingers with a splinter.

Best instruction comes from someone who knows and uses, not from a naysayer. Supposing, of course, that you're interested in learning all you can. Or, as Frank says, from the wood itself.
 
MM,
The same cut on face grain the tool is turned 90 degrees when the wood turns 90 degrees.
The tool would be parallel to the bed with the tip pointed toward the headstock.

When the tool is presented straight on flute up geometry changes immensely. instead of air coming over the top of cut as you had with the spindle you have inches of wood coming at the tool. The cutting edge simply cannot escape and the wood drives onto the tool for a massive catch.
In the spindle the tool edge is escaping into air and no catch. If you notice each pass makes a smaller cylinder.

To move from the catch position the tool must be rolled 90 degrees so the flute is 6 or 9 o'clock. This prevents the wood from driving onto the tool.
Most spindle techniques don't translate directly to face grain work.

Most beginners and intermediate don't understand this concept.
There is just no reason to use an SRG on bowls.
When bowl gouges are safer and do a better job on bowls.

If you get good results with an SRG more power to you.
It is irresponsible too encourage someone of indeterminate skill to use an SRG on bowls.
Too likely to have bad results.

Happy turning
Al
 
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Well stated, Al. If someone has the skill that comes from experience to use the SRG safely on bowl turning that is fine. However, it is not some Pinko Fascist Commie plot against woodturning to discourage using the SRG for bowl turning when it is not the safest tool to use for those who do not have the necessary skill and experience.
 
MM,
The same cut on face grain the tool is turned 90 degrees when the wood turns 90 degrees.

Actually, if you stop and think, it's presented precisely as it is presented to the wood in spindle orientation, and cuts/planes the wood the same way as a result. The difference between a modest arc of contact or a straight contact moving along the curved edge is insignificant.

You start near the (open) end when the wood's completely rough, just as you do with the grain running long, swing in and through, then back up and whittle again. Same as long grain. Double bennie with starting out at the end is that irregularities removed there balance the blank faster. The initial arc establishes an instant downhill which is extended and possibly deepened with each backstep until the surface becomes relatively regular. At that point, just as with spindle work, the initial swing transitions to push along the rest and along the new surface, refining it as you go.

As to safety

When teaching, it's well to mention that cutting above center on convex surfaces is the first best way to avoid getting below the wood. A catch can't happen with air over the tool. Minor irregularities in the surface, or trying to deepen too fast are rewarded by having the wood push the tool out and away. The fact of the bevel being ground at a single angle all the way across means it can't catch sideways, as happens when people try to cut flute up with such grinds and let the gouge roll. Safety also wants the overhand grip, because the active part of the flute is better controlled than if the fingers are under it, especially in regard to pitch. Since the gouge is being controlled over the fulcrum, full mechanical advantage is maintained at the far end of the handle. Carvers will recognize the principle of pushing back with the off hand while using a gouge. Here, the rest provides an even more stable resistance, and since the piece moves we don't have to.

The geometry of a bowl exterior also adds to the safety in a way beyond simply cutting above center. When the tool skews to pare rather than just shear, the sharp corner is not only above center, it's also trailing in the smaller diameter.

Bowl gouge "better?" Subjective. A safe alternative which removes waste rapidly, leaving a regular surface as the natural product of proper use is pretty powerful competition. Unlike some detractors, I know how to use either properly, and I even learned to rough with scrapers long ago. But I like what the kids at school called (after the History teacher showed them a Gidget movie) "the Big Kahuna."
 
MM,

Maybe this will help to explain the geometry difference.

Most turners can turn a shallow cove on a spindle with a skew.
I have never heard of any one hollowing a bowl with a skew as a cutting tool.

Why : the geometry of spindle work is totally different than faceplate work.
The long edge of the skew is in the air while cutting the cove on the spindle. It has no airspace to allow it to hollow a bowl.

If the geometry were the same you could use a skew to hollow a shallow bowl as easily as you cut a shallow cove on a spindle.

Al
 
MM,

Maybe this will help to explain the geometry difference.

Most turners can turn a shallow cove on a spindle with a skew.
I have never heard of any one hollowing a bowl with a skew as a cutting tool.

Skew? How did we get to a skew?

How about mentally or physically gluing two 4x6s together with paper between them, turning a ball in spindle mode, then splitting apart. What's there? Two bowls, ready to be hollowed. There are people with BIG lathes who take round logs, center, turn, then split as a matter of course.

Give 'er a shot, you'll see. If the shavings produced are the same - and they are - it's the result of the cut geometry being the same.

You really have to get some above and skew in to use a straight chisel on the outside of a bowl, but once the bevel's on the wood, it won't turn.
 
MM
You stated early the straight on approach to spindle turning was inappropriate in part because straight on Into face plate work would end in disaster. You also compared a gouge to a knife blade. A Scorp might be a better comparison.

The reason straight on works with spindle work is that tool tip is in the air. most all spindle details coves, beads are cut straight on with the tools at 90 to 75 degrees to the work.

These techniques while the preferred method by most turners for spindle work simply don't work on face grain work.
I thought the example of hollowing a bowl with a skew being an impossibility while cutting shallow coves a spindle would be universally understood.

Your not understanding shows I was wrong.

Happy turning
Al
 
MM,

You stated early the straight on approach to spindle turning was inappropriate in part because straight on Into face plate work would end in disaster. You also compared a gouge to a knife blade (like a skew a scorp is more like a gouge).

The reason straight on works with spindle work is that the tool tip is in the air. most all spindle details coves, beads are cut straight on with the tools at 90 to 75 degrees to the work.

These techniques while the preferred method by most turners for spindle work simply don't work on face grain work.
I thought the example of hollowing a bowl with a skew being an impossibility while cutting shallow coves a spindle would be universally understood.

Your not understanding shows I was wrong.

Happy turning
Al
 
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