lacquer help

[Gretch Flo]

Thought I'd start a new thread so it didn't get buried in my original "dye" help thread. Steve, John, and Bill have lent good suggestions, but I am still frustrated. I have colored several bowls. I have replaced a ready mixed spray can of lacquer with Brushing lacquer from Minwax. I bought a "disposable" sprayer (replacements were $2.50 on sale-person there said would last 4 jar fulls) from home depot that comes with a bottle (8 oz?) on the bottom. I did not6 want to spend alot of $ in case this doesn't pan out. I mixed one part lacquer thinner to 4 parts lacquer-suggestions on the disposable sprayer box if the lacquer didn't say (which it didn't) then added a little more thinner. The nozzle isn't getting clogged and spray seems finer than the can I used before) I have spent literally 6-7 hours on a dark green maple trying to make amends from previous orange peel, then dripping, and then sanding thru other layers, and having to "spot" repair-many times. I thought I was done til wet and dry sanding it again-more needed as there are "white" spots"
My problem with inexperience now is ASH. I have 2 new nice pieces. and I only have a couple of coats in them so far and want to avoid all the labor I have used on others.
This has deep grooves between the annular rings so would require a lot of filling than say maple. They also have crotch figure and and lots of swirls.
Lite spraying still leaves "orange peel" but I don;t think it is-I think it is just lack of filling due to my light spraying. PLEASE say that this is so so I can avoid all the intensive sanding between. Bill mentioned using several coats til all the imperfections are filled. I hope that the grooving in the open grained ash is just that. I did not use sanding sealer -which I have done on a small ash bowl after dying. It came out well. I may need many coats of lacquer without it. I think I still hate lacquer, but I can change once I am educated. 😕 Gretch

 

[Steve Worcester]

The white spots , are they appearing after sanding? are they real small?
If so they are little craters that are air bubbles that are getting filled with sanding dust.

First, how are you shooting? Are you shooting a coat, waiting some prescribed period of time then scuffing, or not, and spraying another coat?

The issue is called solvent pop, when the solvent is not having sufficient open time of the product (lacquer) and it skins over too fast before the solvents can evaporate. The solvents still has to come to the surface so it bubbles up.

It can be caused by a few things, usually too thick of coats, the product drying too fast (use a little retarder or see if you can get different temperature versions of the thinner) or not waiting long enough between coats.

If it is a cross linking lacquer, one that melts into each other as it is sprayed, then after the sanding, and if there aren't a lot of them, get a tooth brush , or better a Crest Spin Brush, and go over them with water. Let it dry sufficiently and you can touch up the spots with a small paint brush and more thinned down lacquer. If it isn't a cross link product, then you risk the coats adhering to each other because you can't sand down into those little pits.

With the preval sprayers you are using, they won't atomize the product near as well as if you had a real spray gun. Do you have a compressor? I can load you one of my mini guns so you can try that. Even a Harbor Freight HVLP mini gun will work better than a sprayer you are using.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I sometimes encounter solvent pop with the fast drying spray an lacquer if the conditions are not quite right or I spray too heavy a coat. I actually had one small platter with a dyed rim where pinholing (most likely) or solvent pop bubbles produced a nice metallic sparkle effect that complemented the almost metallic sheen created by the figure and dye, but most of the time it is undesirable.

Be careful not to spray coats that are too light or else it will have a dry dusty appearance caused by the solvent flashing off before the finish can level out. If you hold the can/gun too far away and the pressure is too high, I think that this can also lead to the dry spray problem. One of the advantages of using a spray gun is that you can mist the surface with slower evaporating reducer to help with some leveling problems like overspray.

I read somewhere that the difference between an amateur and professional painter doesn't have as much to do with making mistakes as it does with knowing how to fix them. I am an amateur, but persistent. Most of the times persistence pays off, but it is a good thing that it is not my paying job.

 

[bbergst]

I see you are in Michigan. If you are spraying in a cool environment you will have a lot of problems with flow out and orange peal. Warming a rattle can in warm water will make it spray a whole lot better and help flow out. If the bowl is cool it will cause a similar problem. Cheap lacquer thinner will dry too fast and cause the same. Brushing lacquer can be sprayed, but drys a little slower and will flow better. It will also run more if the lacquer is sprayed too heavy. Eventually with experience, you will spray a wet coat without orange peal, no runsl, and good flow out. Getting a Harbor Freight gun and a source of consistent air will also help.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Answers within

The white spots , are they appearing after sanding? are they real small?

They are not small-more like a half inch or more-think it is from rubbing too hard. Todays coats had more white areas than in the last week. Maybe from the wet and dry liquid??? I keep wiping with paper towels. One that had a drip I rubbed out with 800, then superfine synthetic steel wool (think they say it's 1200 grit equivalent), This is a first the area wouldn't accept the spray!!!!

If so they are little craters that are air bubbles that are getting filled with sanding dust.

I don't think this is it

First, how are you shooting? Are you shooting a coat, waiting some prescribed period of time then scuffing, or not, and spraying another coat?

I am spraying a coat and waiting 2+ hours.

The issue is called solvent pop, when the solvent is not having sufficient open time of the product (lacquer) and it skins over too fast before the solvents can evaporate. The solvents still has to come to the surface so it bubbles up.

It can be caused by a few things, usually too thick of coats, the product drying too fast (use a little retarder or see if you can get different temperature versions of the thinner) or not waiting long enough between coats.


My basement is currently about 60 deg as outside temps going up and I haven't had the wood stove going for a week. Maybe that is an issue. But I am doing too many different things (diff lacquer, application.diluting, etc)

If it is a cross linking lacquer, one that melts into each other as it is sprayed, then after the sanding, and if there aren't a lot of them, get a tooth brush , or better a Crest Spin Brush, and go over them with water. Let it dry sufficiently and you can touch up the spots with a small paint brush and more thinned down lacquer. If it isn't a cross link product, then you risk the coats adhering to each other because you can't sand down into those little pits.

With the preval sprayers you are using, they won't atomize the product near as well as if you had a real spray gun. Do you have a compressor? I can load you one of my mini guns so you can try that. Even a Harbor Freight HVLP mini gun will work better than a sprayer you are using.

I have a compressor that I bought for my son to use putting a roof on the pole barn he was making for me-the manual is now "lost". Harbor Freight is about 18 miles from me-Can that be a way to go???? Does this use the compressor- (which I'd like to avoid.).
Where do you get reducer?? Paint store and H. Despot didn't know what it was-Thanks for your patience with me,
Gretch

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have a compressor that I bought for my son to use putting a roof on the pole barn he was making for me-the manual is now "lost". Harbor Freight is about 18 miles from me-Can that be a way to go???? Does this use the compressor- (which I'd like to avoid.).
Where do you get reducer?? Paint store and H. Despot didn't know what it was-Thanks for your patience with me,
Gretch

You will need to get a water filter for your compressor (and it is a good idea to drain the compressor daily to get rid of water). If the compressor is the pancake or hot dog type, it may not work as well as the bigger tank type compressors.

If your paint store sells house paint, they wouldn't know anything about various types of thinners. Find an automotive paint dealer. They can help you get the right reducer with an evaporation rate most suitable for your current seasonal weather conditions and to help control orange peel.

 

[Gretch Flo]

reducer

If your paint store sells house paint, they wouldn't know anything about various types of thinners. Find an automotive paint dealer. They can help you get the right reducer with an evaporation rate most suitable for your current seasonal weather conditions and to help control orange peel.[/QUOTE]

Great idea-thanks, Gretch

 

[Gretch Flo]

reducer

I wrote this earlier today , but I guess I didn't send.
I was at auto supply this am and the only reducer that has was for enamel. He suggested Ace hardware or Hobby Lobby. I went to ace and the following was suggested by a sales person after reading the label.I tentatively purchased.Flood's "Penetrol" -quality paint conditioner.-use when paint sets too rapidly .
" Penetrol mixes with oil/alkyd base paints and enamels, varnish, and asphalt. It is not compatible with 2 pt chemical resistant coatings, latex, or other water thinnable paints", Lacquer was not mentioned.
Should I try this????? Gretch

 

[Bill Boehme]

I meant that you should go to an automotive paint dealer, not an auto parts store. The auto paint dealers sell to body shops, aircraft paint shops, and other places that use enamel and lacquer spray finishes. This may not be true everywhere, but the people at the local dealer here are experts on mixing finishes and providing information about anything finishing related.

BTW, many people use some of the same reducers for lacquer that are intended for enamel. However, I know almost nothing about that since there are several kinds of enamel and many more types of reducers and retarders to go along with those products.

 

[Gretch Flo]

reducer

Bill - I know you said car paint dealer, not auto parts. But the parts place was on my way doing errands. I mentioned this to the auto parts guy and he made no suggestions other than hobby Lobby and Ace, So I am guessing there isn't one locally.
My 2 new pieces of ash have had several thin coats, and I don't see the orange peel yet. The annular "grooves" have to get filled first before I can judge whether my mixture is working yet. Gretch

 

[Mark Warden]

Try this if they can't help i'm sure they will tell you who can.
http://www.rmpaint.com/en_UK/contact/distributors/u_s_a.xml

 

[DOCworks]

Gretch,
I'm not an expert on finishes, but we have a group who meet every Wednesday night and this protocol seems to work well for them. They sand to whatever and they use a 1" brush (artist brush) and put on a really good coat of Poly sanding sealer (water based) let it dry about an hour and then wet sand with 600 grit. Then use Krylon 1309 or 1305 Acrylic Lacquer in light coats about every 15 min. after about 6-8 coats buff it out. It works in sunny Florida, but I don't know how it would do in the cold. The Krylon is UV resistant and David Ellsworth uses and recommends it to his students, 1309 is Satin and 1305 is Gloss. You can get it at ACE and most art stores or online. At our ACE it's about $4.29 a can. I did about 6 or 7 Weed pots out of Norfolk Island Pine and this finished worked very well. I'm not sure how many I made because they kept disappearing, I think my wife and mom may have had something to do with that.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Bill - I know you said car paint dealer, not auto parts. But the parts place was on my way doing errands. I mentioned this to the auto parts guy and he made no suggestions other than hobby Lobby and Ace, So I am guessing there isn't one locally.
My 2 new pieces of ash have had several thin coats, and I don't see the orange peel yet. The annular "grooves" have to get filled first before I can judge whether my mixture is working yet. Gretch

Gretch,

If you don't have a supply house near you, you must have a body shop in town, most likely more than one. Stop in around lunch time when the guys are on break and you'll probably get a bunch of free advice and maybe some sources. Be sure to take your bowl with you and expect them to be asking questions on "how'd-ya-dodat" kind of stuff. Don't know that I'd go to a "I'll paint that bowl for $19.95!" kind of place, but any true collision repair should be able to give you some real advice.

BTW, if you're aiming for a glass finish, consider using a pore filler instead of trying to fill the pores and annular rings with lacquer. Even a lacquer film will shrink very slightly on a wood substrate, and this month's optically perfect surface may easily show some of that grain by the Fall if you fill the little pits with just finish.

 

[Bill Boehme]

... Don't know that I'd go to a "I'll paint that bowl for $19.95!" kind of place, but any true collision repair should be able to give you some real advice.

And if they think that your bowl with "negative space" has had hail damage, I would also go somewhere else. 😀 If you hear them suggest that you use Bondo, that is also a reason to go somewhere else. If they want to sell you a 100,000 mile extended warranty for the paint job on your bowl, keep on moving.

 

[Gretch Flo]

And if they think that your bowl with "negative space" has had hail damage, I would also go somewhere else. 😀 If you hear them suggest that you use Bondo, that is also a reason to go somewhere else. If they want to sell you a 100,000 mile extended warranty for the paint job on your bowl, keep on moving.

Bill -that's probably the best advice I've had.
John just PM'd me and is going to send me some reducer.

Mark- I am regretting not using sanding sealer on ash. I have 7-8 lite coats (One large nat edged bowl, another 10 inch regular bowl-both look promising-green) and the bottoms of the grooves aren't filled in some places-especially at the sap wood areas. I didn't use the sanding sealer as I started using all the tips I got with thinner and a different sprayer, and didn't want to "muddy the waters" . So far so good on 2 very nice ash bowls.("knock on wood"). I did a very nice small nat edged ash bowl and used sanding sealer and Danish oil and it came out well (a dark blue color.), another was a plum color and came out well after fussing alot with it. This is before changing the sprayer, and using thinner. Gretch

 

[Steve Worcester]

I have to say I never use a sealer. What happens is after a few coats and it is all soaked in, those areas are sealed, but the material builds up on all the edges and the valleys don't fill in because of static pressure (I think thats what it is). If you get to a few coats and then sand between coats, you take of the edges and it flattens out.
Not to say that you can't put on too many coats, you absolutely can, but if you sand between coats you are cutting down the overall thickness anyway.

 

[Mark Mandell]

. . the valleys don't fill in because of static pressure (I think thats what it is). . .

"surface tension" of the liquid, Steve.

"Fat Edge" is most notable when spraying solvent finishes [lacquer and shellac] although shellac will get fat when brushed or padded as well. Retarders can reduce it as can spraying at low pressure so that the air-flow doesn't push the droplets over and out of the depressions.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Lacquer update

Ok guys, I quit!!!!! I have spent 34+ hours now on one bowl , with continued problems with whitish areas 1-2" in a few spots as I wet and dry sand with 2000 and above -I think the water is the problem. This was after I had sanded all back to the colored wood, added more color, and lacquered again. John Lucus was kind enough to send me some reducer. so I threw out what I had used and started over with fresh laquer, thinner, and reducer. Redid the 34+ hour bowl and after 2000 the whitish spots showed up again=same areas. Not sure why it does that. I think it's going to be a shrine in the shop.
Got 2 new ash bowls started. After dying , I put one 2 coats of sanding sealer, litely sanding between coats. On one I put lacquer, and the other I used Deft Danish oil finish(my typical finish) . Both only needed 1-2 coats. The lacquer had drips.Sanding out made a mess.( I have now sanded it all back redyed, and am going to used danish oil) The danish oil one is beautiful. "you got to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em . Another "successful" (i.e. not much problems) ash bowl doesn't have the warmth I feel with the oiled version. Gretch

 

[abrown]

Gretch,

I have had good luck with Danish Oil (Tried and True... with plenty of dry time) followed by the Beall buffing system with Michigan Ash. Although, none of my stuff has been dyed. Another advantage of Danish oil is that, depending on the formulation you use, there is little to no toxicity, and definitely no threat of explosion from spraying lacquer indoors (like you have much of a choice in Michigan winters....). I do have to say though, I'm impressed that you still have usable ash near Lansing. The stuff here in Northville has been largely unusable for several years. All the ash was wiped out, dried and checked in place, followed by rot. Much of the stuff here doesn't even burn well anymore.

 

[allen jay]

lacquer

gretch here is my two cents
I have sprayed many furniture pieces with lacquer. You need a good quality lacquer to start with.
rattle cans dont qualify. nor does miniwax or other do it yourselfer products.

I have used what used to be called pre catalyzed lacquers. now called conversion lacquers if memory serves.
this is the same type lacquer that is or was sprayed on kitchen and bathroom cabinets. very hard stuff when dry.
but doenst do well with moisture.
there are different grades of lacquer thinners as well. what you buy at borg doesnt qualify either. go to a paint store that caters to professionals painters and stainers usually a wholesaler not a sherwin williams or other chain paint store they dont know squat about lacquers. or else seek the opinon from a furniture finisher not a car painter two different types of lacquers.
also lacquer doenst not like being applied over another type finish i.e polyurethanes or the like. again just my two cents worth and the expereince i have had.

 

[Steve Worcester]

A whitish spot can be either sanding thought the finish and water entering the wood, or blushing underneath. Since it showed up after sanding, I will go with the former. IN this case it is another coat or two. If sanding, two coats aren't enough. If it is a small spot, like pin heads, it is sanding dust in pinholes.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Ash

I think a couple of my neighbor's trees finally bit the dust this spring. May have been dying a couple of years tho. The one stump with multiple branches has yielded some awesome figure and grain -runs all over the place, various colors . Some degrade. Did a nat edged 12" bowl yesterday and today(saved most of the bark) -I will color, sanding sealer 2 coats and danish oil -Am guessing the ash will go the way of the dinosaur. Gretch

 

[Gretch Flo]

"real" lacquer

gretch here is my two cents
I have sprayed many furniture pieces with lacquer. You need a good quality lacquer to start with.
rattle cans dont qualify. nor does miniwax or other do it yourselfer products.

I have used what used to be called pre catalyzed lacquers. now called conversion lacquers if memory serves.
this is the same type lacquer that is or was sprayed on kitchen and bathroom cabinets. very hard stuff when dry.
but doenst do well with moisture.
there are different grades of lacquer thinners as well. what you buy at borg doesnt qualify either. go to a paint store that caters to professionals painters and stainers usually a wholesaler not a sherwin williams or other chain paint store they dont know squat about lacquers. or else seek the opinon from a furniture finisher not a car painter two different types of lacquers.
also lacquer doenst not like being applied over another type finish i.e polyurethanes or the like. again just my two cents worth and the expereince i have had.

Thanks Allen-others have stated the same thing as well as using a compressor. I am not a full time professional turner, and I don't want to commit to going all the way with the expense and learning curve when I have another method that works for me (Deft danish oil). Gretch

 

[john lucas]

I think that is the secret, which is to find a finish that works for you. I don't remember if I said it before but I have a very hard time using lacquer in the winter. First of all I don't have a spray booth so I spray out the door. Obviously this has lots of problems with humidity and temperature. I play around with other finished to help with this problem.
I still haven't found a better finish for my hand mirrors. I need something very fast to apply. Can hold up to use. Especially in an environment where glass cleaning may take place. I used to use shellac until I found out Windex glass cleaner will leave little dot all over the finish that can only be removed by sanding and applying another coat of finish. I switched to lacquer because it doesn't show the Windex marks and can be easily repaired if damaged. Oil based finishes just take too long and polyurethane finished can't be repaired easily without stripping the finish back off.
I had constant problems with spraying lacquer until I switched to brand named Benco made by a local distributor. I assume other professional quality grades will work equally well. The stuff sold at Lowes just never worked very well for me. I keep thinking I'll try the Violin finish by some manufacturers but haven't done it yet.

 

[Gretch Flo]

I still haven't found a better finish for my hand mirrors. I need something very fast to apply. Can hold up to use. Especially in an environment where glass cleaning may take place. I used to use shellac until I found out Windex glass cleaner will leave little dot all over the finish that can only be removed by sanding and applying another coat of finish. I switched to lacquer because it doesn't show the Windex marks and can be easily repaired if damaged. Oil based finishes just take too long and polyurethane finished can't be repaired easily without stripping the finish back off.


Now I see why you use it!!!!! Thanks, Gretch