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Is anyone using Polyethylene Glycol (PEG)

Ward Holdridge

Ward Holdridge

Joined
Feb 10, 2010
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Location
Leland, NC
I am currently trying to refinish a Moulthrop bowl from 1958. The bowl had been soaked in PEG to stabilize the wood and finished in some type of epoxy that had deteriorated over time. Is anyone currently using PEG in their turning? Any experience in a refinishing job like this?

5:15 pm
So that y'all don't think I'm the village idiot, I fully realize the history of Moulthrop bowls. This bowl was so covered with bubbles and had so much peeling that there was no way to salvage this finish. The bowl is clearly a work of art. The shape and very thin walls are spectacular. My friend is not interested in having the bowl professionally refinished.

I did speak with Phillip Moulthrop, who turned this bowl. His only advice was to remove the old finish down to bare wood. He offered no help in choosing a product to use in applying a new finish. I have done this and have an extremely smooth surface. Apparently due to the PEG residing in the wood, nothing I have tested (danish oil and rub on poly) seems to adhere well or dry in a reasonable time. At this point, I am thinking of just applying Renaissance Wax. I am reluctant to try a two-part epoxy for fear of creating another mess. Any help would be appreciated.
 
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When I used it long ago, I used an acetone wipe to get the finish to adhere, however badly. Tooth the epoxy with some 320 and give a good wipe, then try.
 
Gretch Flo said:
Not sure Mark and Tib read this in the original post. He DID contact the Moltrups!!!!! Gretch
Click to expand...

Didn't read it, Gretch, because it wasn't there until 5:15.

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Don't think you're the village anything, Ward, just making sure you don't make a common mistake. People get surprized when they undertake to "clean and restore" an antique or art work only to find that they've destroyed 80 percent of its value by doing so.

It's unfortunate that the artist offered no help. He's not, of course, responsible for lifetime maintenance of what he sells over his life, but you have more than a piece of wood to protect in this instance.

Given the PEG issue, your choice to use the "minimally invasive" option, the wax, is probably the best way to go other than taking the piece to a pro restorer/conservator who will have special techniques and products, and will give you a provenance for the work done.
 
I don't use PEG1000, but I do have two "wheels" of the stuff (5 pounds weight apiece). The shape is something like cheese wheels except for being solid white and having somewhat of a waxy feel. I bought them years ago when I first started to turn wood because the PEG treatment fad seemed to have hit a peak about then (along with dish detergent which may have also contained some PEG at the time). Anyway, I read enough about the subject to discourage me along with some nasty results from using Pentacryl, a green wood stabilizing ingredient. I don't know what the Pentacryl contained, but I did not like the results and figured that it would likely be more of the same with PEG based on comments from those who did try it. I have been trying to figure out how to unload the two wheels of PEG that I have, but can't in good conscience sell or even give it to some poor unsuspecting soul.
 
I still have some of my PEG, and every two or three years I make up a mess of mallets for sale - the carving type, turned from Hop-Hornbeam or Hard Maple. Green wood, turned and soaked for four-five months (ALCOHOL SOAKING!), or less if you want to heat it will bulk the surface. The 50/50 by weight is fairly easy to maintain with a hydrometer. You get a mallet that is heavier than the dry wood, because the PEG is hygroscopic, and, since the surface is a bit damp, it gives a modified "dead blow" effect that doesn't rattle the elbow. I sell to carvers, or hand them out at carving demos as a bit of a return for fee. It's a good use for the PEG, but it will take quite a while to use it up. Leave the bricks you use to weight the mallets right in the bucket between soaks, as anything you drop the slick suckers on will become contaminated.

The normal humectant in dish detergent is a triol - glycerine.
 
Article that might be useful

I'm sorry to hear that Phillip Moulthrop was not more helpful.
You might find some guidance in this article on blistering issues in Moulthrop pieces by an arts conservator. It outlines the original process, including the use of two-part epoxy.
http://www.cool.conservation-us.org/...06/pine_06.pdf
If you are in an area with a good museum, you might try contacting their conservation department for a referral to a restorer.
Cheers,
Tib
 
Pictures of Mouthrop Bowl 7/10/11

Tib, Robert et al:

Thanks for the suggestions and reference to the conservation site. There are several articles regarding the problems with PEG.

Here is one view of the bowl in question. It is 10" wide, 7 5/8" high and the top hole is 4 1/8 wide. The bowl was turned in 1988 by Phillip Moulthrop from Figured Tulipwood. At this point, the only finish on the piece are two thin coats of Renaissance Wax.
 

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That is the correct article. Sorry you had to search. Looks like copy/paste from the address bar didn't work!
By going to the site http://www.cool.conservation-us.org/ you'll also be able to find Pine's article, and many additional interesting articles on conservation in general.
 
Ward Holdridge said:
Tib, Robert et al:

Thanks for the suggestions and reference to the conservation site. There are several articles regarding the problems with PEG.

Here is one view of the bowl in question. It is 10" wide, 7 5/8" high and the top hole is 4 1/8 wide. The bowl was turned in 1988 by Phillip Moulthrop from Figured Tulipwood. At this point, the only finish on the piece are two thin coats of Renaissance Wax.
Click to expand...

After reading the article, I think that the Renaissance Wax might be the most acceptable finish. The PEG underneath any kind of hard film finish is going to be a problem. I would be interested in knowing more about he wax polymer blend that the conservators were considering.
 
Documenting

Ward,

As I mentioned, consulting with a conservator because they will document exactly what is done to the piece including the exact materials used, I strongly suggest that you do the same. Someday, you or your heirs may wish to sell the piece. Any collector with his/her head straight will ask for that documentation and won't touch the piece without it. Being able to supply the details of care will make a huge difference in the sale price down-the-road.

PS: Forget that Ward doesn't own the bowl, so appears to be a "woodturner doing a friend a favor" here. It might be a good idea to explain to the owner that non-pro refinishing may diminish the ultimate value of the piece.
 
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Hello Ward,

Are you sure this was turned by Phillip? If so, he would have been 10 or 11 years old, being that he was born in November of 1947 and you stated it was turned in 1958. But he is a fantastic turner, so maybe he did.

I think if it were me I would leave it as is. The wax finish looks very good to me.

I am a little surprised that he would not like to restore it himself.

Dave
 
Dave Peebles said:
Hello Ward,

Are you sure this was turned by Phillip? If so, he would have been 10 or 11 years old, being that he was born in November of 1947 and you stated it was turned in 1958. But he is a fantastic turner, so maybe he did.

I think if it were me I would leave it as is. The wax finish looks very good to me.

I am a little surprised that he would not like to restore it himself.

Dave
Click to expand...

Ward corrected himself in post #11 and said that it was turned in 1988, not 1958.

Since the owner of the turning has no interest in having a conservator restore the finish, perhaps it would be a good idea to remove some of the PEG. According to the article on restoring Moulthrop's turnings, a major problem with the PEG is that it apparently is not nearly as stable as some have claimed. Ethanol is a good solvent for PEG that could be used to try to remove enough of it to make it feasible to apply a finish. Some folks are not interested in what this might do to the future value. Not everybody watches Antiques Road Show.
 
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