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in defense of scrapers

M

Max Taylor

In Memoriam
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Dec 26, 2005
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The AAW journal,April 20 12 Richard Raffan on page 20 discusses scrapers. He has 15 of several sizes he uses. he says he gets a smoother finish with them than a gouge.Both at the bottom and the transition fro=m the bottom to sides whether rounded or straight. so I guess I will start accumulating scrapers for my turnings.Max.
 
Well, when turning end grain, for sure. On standard bowl orientation, no. I think Richard uses them mostly for boxes. I prefer them mostly for heavy bowl roughing, and for shear scrapes. They work better for a shear scrape than a gouge does, and with the proper nose profile (round nose or inside/swept back) you don't have to drop the handle as much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKdqiAc0jx4

robo hippy
 
Scrapers are useful tools.
For End grain and boxes they are real useful for cleaning up after the gouge and for fitting lids.


Bowls and platters shear scraping with a gouge or a radiused square end scraper can save some sanding.
Scraping on the inside of bowls can clean up the bottom if you don't get it quite right with the gouge.
I use a domed scraper ( round nose) on the bottom on maybe 20% of my bowls usually those with lots of figure in the bottom that isn't lined up to cut well with the gouge.

A few really dense woods can be a challenge to the gouge as well.
 
For doing end grain turning, goblet bowls, vases, and bowls there are lots of options for hollowing,

hook tools and ring tools can leave a sanding ready surface inside a vessel.
On goblets I hollow with a gouge and then use a hunter carbide to clean up the surface.
I use the Hunter at 45 degree angle or higher and it cleans the inside really nicely.
This may be a cutting action or it may be a scraping action, It is a shear scrap most likely which is almost a cutting action.
 
I had some pretty dramatic blowups scraping up the side near the rim of fairly thin wall, side grain bowls, with scrapers in the early days. I wouldn't sell your gouges just yet!
 
Always when teaching people to use scrapers on bowls, I give the warning: NEVER use a scraper, flat on the tool rest, any where near the rim of a bowl that has been hollowed out! The proverbial "I heard this strange screeching and howling noise, and then my bowl blew up". A flat scraping cut will exert pressure that makes the bowl start to flex and wobble just like a soap bubble, no matter how light your touch is. It wobbles to the point where you get a big catch...... A shear scrape, with the cutter at a 45 or higher degree angle is much safer, use very light cuts, and let your left hand act as a gentle steady rest.

robo hippy
 
When I do a bowls demo I always talk about scrapers and why I don't use them:

I don't use them for bowls, not because I am a tool snob, but because when I was learning I had some hideous catches with them, and could never produce a good surface finish with them, always leaving tear out. Around the same time I saw a demo by Jimmy Clewes who uses a bowl gouge of EVERYTHING! It made sense to follow his example, so I perfected my technique with a bowl gouge and never went back to scrapers.

I have since realised that my issues with the scraper were related to tool presentation and sharpening - all catches and bad finish are!

I will not dismiss the use of scrapers entirely because if you ever see people like Richard Raffan or Ray Key, their tool boxes are full of scrapers of all shapes and sizes, and they will turn a bowl to a point with the gouge, then it's scrapers all the way! And have you ever heard a bad word spoken about the form and finish of a Raffan or Key bowl?

Richard
 
Well apparently I can't use scrapers well enough because I can get a better finish with cutting tools. Especially using the Hunter carbide tools for the inside of boxes and goblets.
I do use shear scrapers some because even though my cuts are cleaner off the bowl gouge I may not always get the perfrect flowing curve
I have several s tapers and have converted a few to negative rake to try them out.
 
Scraper 101 never let the bevel contact the wood.
On the outside of a bowl the flat tool must be below center on the inside the flat tool must be above center.
On the inside of a bowl do not scrap the endgrain ( side wall ) the endgrain will climb onto the edge making a catch.

Scraping on the outside of bowls and HF I usually do with the bowl gouge Shear scraping.
Shear scraping can also be done with a square end scraper or a square end with a slight radius.

Occasionally a HF will have a tight cove and grain that refuse a clean surface to my 3/8 gouge with a Michelson grind. They are tough to sand.
I use my straight Hollowing tool as scraper for these.

Get good with the gouge and keep the scrapers put away!

The trick with bowls is to have a continuos curve from rim to bottom center. This lets the gouge cut fibers the whole way with supporting fibers behind them. This avoids having the gouge go straight into the endgrain and lift fibers. ( wild grain will have some fibers going in the wrong direction)
The bevel must ride all the way to to the bottom center. A common problem for beginners is comin off the bevel and dragging the tip of the gouge accross the bottom producing a washboard surface.

The lifted fiber and wash board can e fixed with scrapers but if you don't create them you can finish with the gouge.
 
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john lucas said:
For coves and undercuts on bowls that are hard to clean up I use my Hunter tools in scraping mode.
Click to expand...

John, I am really impressed with the Hunter tools.
I don't have much proficiency with them yet (I would not use them in demo or try to teach someone to use them) and I'm getting great results.

Thanks for all,your posts on them

Al
 
Al. I have several youtube videos that show the hunter tool usage I have learned a new technique with them but it may be hard to describe I use the tool
With the round cutter facing the work so the lower edge is scraping and the upper edge is very close to the work. In effect this is a negative rake. If you think of it as a clock face you are scaling at 6 o clock. This a true scrape with the wood crossing the cutter at 90 degrees m now if you move the handle out a little you can move the cut to about 7:30 or 8 o'clock. Now the wood is passing the cutter at a shear angle and gives a cleaner cut. Don't know why I didnt figure that out years ago.
 
yall got me confused again

With the round cutter facing the work so the lower edge is scraping and the upper edge is very close to the work. In effect this is a negative rake. If you think of it as a clock face you are scaling at 6 o clock. This a true scrape with the wood crossing the cutter at 90 degrees m now if you move the handle out a little you can move the cut to about 7:30 or 8 o'clock
Click to expand...

I thought you needed an angle of 25 or 35 degrees for it to be a negative rake. I see how you could use the lower edge but that seems to be too large an angle to be negative rake. I have been messing around with a negative rake since the Virginia woodturning symposium demo by sb and like it.
 
The Hunter carbide cutters have a cutting edge that is about 27 degrees and works really well as a scraper. It's very much like using a skew on its side. That edge is also why they cut so well in the bevel rubbing mode. The top of the cutter is recessed instead of flat like other carbide cutters.
 
Woodturning 102

Use whatever works, and what works this time on this piece of wood, may not be what works the next time on another piece of wood.

Be prepared to shift gears.

ooc
 
Both scrapers and gouges are capable of some incredibly fine surface quality......but, it is my opinion that many turners just don't realize that in both cases, the fineness of the tool edge is very short lived......much shorter than they thought. Most turners just don't have the patience to re-hone or re-grind as often as is required in order to maintain the most proficient cutting ability of the tool. The result of that is they are frustrated with the results they are getting, and spend much more time sanding than what could have been.

ooc
 
I think I saw it demonstrated by Kel in San Jose. I couldn't see that it would do anything I couldn't do with a standard scraper. Maybe for hollowform type work, but for more standard cuts, I just couldn't see it.

robo hippy
 
robo hippy said:
I think I saw it demonstrated by Kel in San Jose. I couldn't see that it would do anything I couldn't do with a standard scraper. Maybe for hollowform type work, but for more standard cuts, I just couldn't see it.

robo hippy
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. They are all pieces of flat steel, and when you get right down to the nitty gritty, they all do the same thing.

This reminds me of the Easywood tool aficionados.....there is nothing the Easywood tools can do that you can't do with traditional scrapers.....and gouges will do many cuts better. I suspect those who use the Easywood tools, buy them because they haven't learned how to sharpen yet. 😛

ooc
 
odie said:
....there is nothing the Easywood tools can do that you can't do with traditional scrapers.....and gouges will do many cuts better....
Click to expand...

I probably would have agreed with that statement if it weren't for a piece of post oak burl with a partly hollow center that also had a lot of pith wood. The wood also had a high silica content-- you could see it with a pocket microscope. I had finished the exterior about ten tears ago, but my HSS tools couldn't cut the interior for more than a few seconds before going completely dull. One of the guys at the local Woodcraft talked me into an EWT hollowing tool. It actually was amazing how easily it cut that hard wood. Even so, I wore out two of the carbide cutters on that one piece. I was also very pleasantly surprised at how clean the cut turned out after all of the comments that I had read on several forums about carbide cutters not cutting cleanly and leaving a lot of tearout. My main complaint about the tools is that the carbide tips don't last nearly as long as advertised and they are very expensive.

That was the only piece that I have encountered where the carbide tool was the only one that could do the job. Since then, I have used the EWT tool on a few pieces of dry hard mesquite.

When I bought a boring bar system from Steve Sinner at SWAT a couple years ago, I also bought a Rolly Munro carbide cutter. It is similar to the Hunter carbide cutters that have an actual cutting edge, but the Munro tool has a guard to prevent over feeding which can easily happen with its very aggressive cutter.

You might be right that some beginners haven't learned to sharpened tools, but I suspect that the main reason that beginners use the tools has nothing to do with sharpening. From what I have observed, it is the fact that they are simply easy to use -- you just put the tip on center and hold the tool level and that's it -- and very clean results if done with a sharp cutter and just a little bit of finesse.

A lot of beginners have found their comfort zone using these tools and are getting great results ... and that is the only thing that matters. Or is there something else that matters?
 
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carbide cutters definitely have their place and use.

The Hunter outperforms any scraper I have used.
A Steel scraper bur last a few seconds at best.

The EASY WOOD tools have their place too.
I have yet to see any beginner getting "great" results with the easy wood.
Acceptable results - maybe- but not great


Al
 
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hockenbery said:
....The EASY WOOD tools have their place too.
I have yet to see any beginner getting "great" results with the easy wood.
Acceptable results - maybe- but not great
Click to expand...

OK, to you and me maybe the results are not great, but to a beginner the gee-wiz factor makes it great. 😀

I think that I might have been doing some shear scraping in the post oak burl hollow form because I started sanding at about 800, ... uh ... well would you believe maybe 150?
 
I got to watch two demos at last year's Woodworking show in Tampa.

One was Don Geiger turning a natural edge bowl using an Ellsworth gouge.
The other was of a cut rim bowl scrapped with Easywood tools by a guy who seems to be a pretty good turner (IMHO not as skilled as Don but quite capable)
The purpose of the Eastwood demo was to sell Eastwood tools. The purpose of Don's demo was to educate the audience.

Don's bowl had an elegant curve, all the bark on the rim, was a fat 1/8" even wall , and a surface you could sand beginning with 220.

The Eastwood bowl the curve was not quite right ( a few flats) and the surface was bit rough maybe sand able with 120. The is side surface was bit smoother sandable at,180, maybe 220. The wall was a pretty even 1/2" and the bowl would be a nice salad bowl. The big challenge with easy wood tools is getting a smooth curve on the outside and inside.

What Don did so easily with the gouge was a significant challenge for the easy wood demonstrator.

Once the curve is made with a gouge. Carbide tools can be used to smooth the surface.
It is hard to make an outside curve with any scraper and hard to make an inside curve with a small radius scraper.
A flat scraper or slightly radiused scraper can fair the curve on the outside removing small bumps etc but isn't suited to shaping the whole curve.

That said I have seen some really good curves made inside and out with 1/4" wide HSS Scrapers, it takes a lot of skill and a long time to master.

My conclusion is that easy wood tools will do a decent job on a cut rim bowl with no learning curve.
For an excellent job the gouge is the tool or lots of years of experience.

At least half the beginning students I have worked with make bowl that can be sanded with 220 on the outside and 180 on the inside with 8-12 hours of class time.
About 15% of the beginners master the shear cut and can sand the inside of their bowls with 220 after 12-14 hours of class.

Don't think that can be matched with Easywood tools.

Al
 
Bill Boehme said:
OK, to you and me maybe the results are not great, but to a beginner the gee-wiz factor makes it great. 😀
I think that I might have been doing some shear scraping in the post oak burl hollow form because I started sanding at about 800, ... uh ... well would you believe maybe 150?
Click to expand...

I didn't think you owned 150 🙂.

I agree with the gee wiz factor, unless the beginner has a quality class.....

If you want to make a bowl totally on your own with no hands on education the Easy Wood give you the best chance of success.
 
i like 1500 or most likely 1200 since that is the highest I own to sand after applying Danish oil, several coats sanded are what you need, after sheer scrapping of course
 
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Well I've only been using my Easywood tool occasionally, mostly to show a new turner how they work. Used that seldom I'm still surprised out the loss of sharpeness. It quit shear scraping well very quickly. At first it cut quickly and easily. Now it is noticeably less sharp. It still cuts well but you do have to push harder. It still doesn't leave a very clean finish. I hate to make it sound like we are badmouthing the tool because obviously raw beginners find them easy to use. I've seen a lot of terrible shaped bowls turned by new turners with bowl gouges so what's the difference if they turn a terrible shape with a scraper and no catches. Ideally you still need to learn what is a good form.
I've watched machinists sneak up on a wooden form for a mold using scrapers and get it within a few thousandths of dead on. So obviously scrapers have a place. Not to mention how well Richard Raffen uses one. I have also used scrapers, and yea even a skew on it's side, to sneak up on forms that I've had to turn when the customer only gave me one piece of wood and I couldn't possible screw it up. That being said I get a far cleaner finish that requires much less sanding with gouges and cutting tools. I can also get much cleaner continuous curves on forms using a gouge and controlling the cut with the handle and my body.
 
You know, I do believe the EW tools do allow a newbie to produce a decent bowl, or other turning, when it wouldn't be probable otherwise. I can imagine that sensation of awesomeness is probably sheer ecstasy......but, when that wears off, and the results can't compare to turnings by others who are using traditional lathe tools, the awesomeness is going to lose that sense of satisfaction that it once had. The eventual realization that a tool finish that requires little sanding is the ONLY thing that will have the very best results possible....and no amount of sanding will overcome that basic truth. Almost as good just doesn't compare, no matter how nice that sense of awesomeness felt in the beginning.

Then, after all that effort, one will realize that he's wasted time and expense only to come to a "dead end street"......and, the only thing he can then do, is turn around and go back to where he took the easy path, and turn to the more difficult to master, higher capable, skill intense, time honored traditional tools.

There is a reason why masters of this craft don't all throw away their traditional tools and replace them with Easywood tools.......they know why they don't, but a newbie doesn't have that "vision" yet.......🙄

ooc
 
john lucas said:
Well I've only been using my Easywood tool occasionally, mostly to show a new turner how they work. Used that seldom I'm still surprised out the loss of sharpeness. It quit shear scraping well very quickly. At first it cut quickly and easily. Now it is noticeably less sharp. .....
Click to expand...

Thank you for that bit of information, John. I've experienced the same thing and figured it was just me and that I wasn't doing something quite right.
 
Bill Boehme said:
OK, to you and me maybe the results are not great, but to a beginner the gee-wiz factor makes it great. 😀

I think that I might have been doing some shear scraping in the post oak burl hollow form because I started sanding at about 800, ... uh ... well would you believe maybe 150?
Click to expand...

Did you ever notice that turners subtlety tell you how good they are when in the instructional mode they say they start sanding at 200, 300, etc. Taking a hands on from Lyle Jamieson he came to my lathe and said I could start sanding at 200. That was my oral grade. He also said in another descriptive lecture he would give that we'd learn to start sanding at 320-I never attained that except in some real easy woods to work with!!!! 😀Gretch
 
Well, I did get some of the Eliminator tools years back. I find them handy for the bottoms of boxes, and some shear scrapes on the inside box walls. I still prefer tools that can be sharpened easily. Now, with scrapers, when scraping on bowls grain orientation, you will get a rough surface. When you rotate the tool to 45 or higher angles, you get a much better surface. If the carbide tipped tool is on a square shaft, and the tip is flat, then it is not very good for shear scraping. Some of them are set at 45 degrees which works better.

My favorite scraper, well one of them because I have a bunch is a civilized version (it has a wood handle rather than the traditional cutter on both ends) of the 'Big Ugly' tool. The cutting material is 1/8 inch Tantung, which is a cast metal which is almost as hard as carbide, but is easily sharpened on standard grinding wheels. It is silver soldered (they use a solder tape, rather than standard flux and solder) onto cold rolled bar stock. It was developed so long ago that no one seems to know who came up with it, but the Oregon coastal myrtle wood turners are the ones who use it the most. Stellite is another material that works great for a cutting metal.

For sanding, most of the time I start at 120. It seems like green wood turned to final thickness, as it dries and shrinks and warps will have more flaws that won't sand out with 220, well not unless you want to spend way too much time with it. I haven't turned from dry wood in years, but seem to feel that I can start at higher grits when I did.

robo hippy
 
Gretch I usually tell people I start sanding at 600 grit. Then I go back to what ever grit I need such as 120 or 150. That way I can always say I start at 600 grit. I didn't say my turning was that good. 🙂 It is an interesting discussion point and in some cases an indicator of the finish your getting off a tool.
 
Gretch Flo said:
Did you ever notice that turners subtlety tell you how good they are when in the instructional mode they say they start sanding at 200, 300, etc. Taking a hands on from Lyle Jamieson he came to my lathe and said I could start sanding at 200. That was my oral grade. He also said in another descriptive lecture he would give that we'd learn to start sanding at 320-I never attained that except in some real easy woods to work with!!!! 😀Gretch
Click to expand...

Gretch, in a demo quite a few years ago, I pulled out a piece of 400 and intending a joke I said "I always start with 400", wink, wink,
Toss the 400 on the floor an pull out something reasonable.
The joke was on me because a furious note taker missed the switch and reported in the club news letter the Al always starts with 400.
Wish it were true.
 
Mike Mahoney as said that he starts with 80 grit. I have found that some times the 80 grit scratches are more difficult to sand out than tool marks....

robo hippy
 
robo hippy said:
.... Stellite is another material that works great for a cutting metal. .....
Click to expand...

It is interesting that I was at the dentist yesterday and they were showing a video in the waiting room on the manufacturing process for implants. At one point in the process for the posts, they are coated with a Stellite alloy which makes them corrosion proof and very hard.

It's interesting how sometimes you hear about something for the first time and then suddenly it pops up all over the place. This made me very curious so I had to do some searching to learn more. Stellite is used for hard facing other metals and in specialized welding applications. There are probably several hundred different Stellite alloys that have been used, but the Kennemetal Stellite Group website lists sixteen alloys as then most commonly used. The main components are cobalt, tungsten, and carbon which means that there would be nano tungsten carbide particles in the metal and also, I suspect that it would very likely be too expensive to have solid Stellite tools.
 
The cutter tips on the Woodcut bowl saver are Stellite, as are the teeth on the Hitachi bandsaw that has the 3 inch wide blades. There is a supplier in Canada. Both stellite and tantung are very wear resistant. I hope to have a Big Ugly or 3 for show and tell at the Symposium this summer.

robo hippy
 
Bill Boehme said:
It is interesting that I was at the dentist yesterday and they were showing a video in the waiting room on the manufacturing process for implants. At one point in the process for the posts, they are coated with a Stellite alloy which makes them corrosion proof and very hard.

It's interesting how sometimes you hear about something for the first time and then suddenly it pops up all over the place. This made me very curious so I had to do some searching to learn more. Stellite is used for hard facing other metals and in specialized welding applications. There are probably several hundred different Stellite alloys that have been used, but the Kennemetal Stellite Group website lists sixteen alloys as then most commonly used. The main components are cobalt, tungsten, and carbon which means that there would be nano tungsten carbide particles in the metal and also, I suspect that it would very likely be too expensive to have solid Stellite tools.
Click to expand...

Bill. I believe the original was Deloro Stellite & in Canada, & Kennametal bought them out. Welding rod for hard surfacing was/is a common use. It may have been sprayed as well. Ron.
 
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