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I love this turning tool!

J

John Neugebauer

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Hello, I am new to posting on this forum even though I have been reading many great posts and really appreciate all the information shared here. Thankyou! I just thought I would share one of my favorite turning tools. It's on YouTube as "Custom Woodturning Tool" sold by Dennis Montville, I ordered one and have been testing it out for sometime and I just love it. It is very versatile because you can grind any tip profile you like and sharpening is a breeze. Well worth the money. I made my handle out of a piece of Purple Heart sandwiched between two pieces of hard maple. Anyone else have this tool? Thanks John
 

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John Neugebauer said:
Hello, I am new to posting on this forum even though I have been reading many great posts and really appreciate all the information shared here. Thankyou! I just thought I would share one of my favorite turning tools. It's on YouTube as "Custom Woodturning Tool" sold by Dennis Montville, I ordered one and have been testing it out for sometime and I just love it. It is very versatile because you can grind any tip profile you like and sharpening is a breeze. Well worth the money. I made my handle out of a piece of Purple Heart sandwiched between two pieces of hard maple. Anyone else have this tool? Thanks John
Click to expand...

Hi John, and welcome......

After seeing his video, and visiting Dennis Montville's site, I see he describes the cutting bit in his tool as "cobalt steel". Is the sharpening procedure any different than HSS? Is it any harder than HSS?

That appears to be used very similarly to the CI1 Easyrougher. Although there are those who feel the Easyrougher is a tool that has proven it's value to them, I'm one who has never been convinced it will perform any differently than a standard HSS heavy duty scraper.

Can you tell us if there is any difference between the use of Montville's tool, and how a standard scraper would be presented to the wood? Is the physical properties of the cutting edges of the two tools any different?

thanks

ooc
 
Yup, looks like an oland. I have one I made myself and I love it, I rough out all my bowls with it.
Chris
 
Looks like a straight hollowing tool with a 1/4" cutter.

basically it is a small scraper. One of my Stewart Bars that has 20 Year of faithful service takes a 1/4 square cutter. I occasionally use my hollowing tools as scrapers when I can't get a gouge to do a decent job on a tight curve under the lip of a hollow form.

Myron Curtis uses a tool with a similar business end and demonstrates how to make them. Myron does lots of architectural turning. Great big timbers itty bitty tool.

I much prefer using gouges over scrapers most of the time. For me the gouges remove material faster, leave a better surface, leave a smoother curve, and they just feel better when they cut. It seems to me that gouges do all the work and I'm just guiding it.

It is well worth having a similar tool when you need it.

If the only tool you have is a hammer all problems look like nails.

Happy turning,
al
 
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A must have tool!

Hello Odie, As a long time hobbyist I also dabble as an amateur machinist. I enjoy fabricating and making many of the tools I use in both machining and woodworking. Most common turning tools are not very efficient nor user friendly. If you spend a few hours on a metal lathe you soon realize that there is a better (more efficient) way.
I teach turning to Boy Scouts and to keep them interested there must be some instant gratification. Softer woods and sharp tools make turning a pleasure. Trying to teach a novice to use a skew is a recipe for disaster.
The reason I love this tool is because it is so easy to work with, I don't have to worry about exact placement or catches, it really is a pleasure to use. I also own a Ci1 and LOVE IT too but they are two different tools.
First off both tools differ from a typical scraper because of their origins. Both tools were designed from machinist style cutters. The cut on the custom turning tool (CTT) is similar to a scrape but because of the inherent rigidity of the design it does much more. The Ci1 has a rake to it's cutter and is really sharp! (Cut yourself sharp) and is very beefy. The CTT is somewhat smaller and the tip design allows you to experiment with different grinds and angles for any application. (just like a machinist does)
As a turner I wouldn't be without either one of these tools and both suppliers are outstanding in their customer service. Also both tools are in my opinion outstanding values. The cost to make these tools yourself would be more then the purchase price. I really enjoy turning with them! I am sure you will too!
Mike, Chris- You are right it is similar to the Knud Oland tool except the CTT uses HEXIGON Chromoly. (Chromoly is like steel on steroids. It contains Chromium and molybdenum a splash of carbon and mostly iron.) It makes for a really strong design. The tool also is Black Oxide finished to protect all that iron but being a tool nut I sanded all the Black Ox off and buffed it to a bright finish! Awesome!
I spoke to Dennis and he said he might be planing different finishes like Chrome! (Then I will have 2)
 
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John Neugebauer said:
Hello Odie, As a long time hobbyist I also dabble as an amateur machinist. I enjoy fabricating and making many of the tools I use in both machining and woodworking. Most common turning tools are not very efficient nor user friendly. If you spend a few hours on a metal lathe you soon realize that there is a better (more efficient) way.
I teach turning to Boy Scouts and to keep them interested there must be some instant gratification. Softer woods and sharp tools make turning a pleasure. Trying to teach a novice to use a skew is a recipe for disaster.
The reason I love this tool is because it is so easy to work with, I don't have to worry about exact placement or catches, it really is a pleasure to use. I also own a Ci1 and LOVE IT too but they are two different tools.
First off both tools differ from a typical scraper because of their origins. Both tools were designed from machinist style cutters. The cut on the custom turning tool (CTT) is similar to a scrape but because of the inherent rigidity of the design it does much more. The Ci1 has a rake to it's cutter and is really sharp! (Cut yourself sharp) and is very beefy. The CTT is somewhat smaller and the tip design allows you to experiment with different grinds and angles for any application. (just like a machinist does)
As a turner I wouldn't be without either one of these tools and both suppliers are outstanding in their customer service. Also both tools are in my opinion outstanding values. The cost to make these tools yourself would be more then the purchase price. I really enjoy turning with them! I am sure you will too!
Mike, Chris- You are right it is similar to the Knud Oland tool except the CTT uses HEXIGON Chromoly. (Chromoly is like steel on steroids. It contains Chromium and molybdenum a splash of carbon and mostly iron.) It makes for a really strong design. The tool also is Black Oxide finished to protect all that iron but being a tool nut I sanded all the Black Ox off and buffed it to a bright finish! Awesome!
I spoke to Dennis and he said he might be planing different finishes like Chrome! (Then I will have 2)
Click to expand...

John........

I can appreciate that you are convinced of the effectiveness of the CTT, or the Ci1, for that matter. You are in the company of others who feel the same. However, we once had a discussion about it on this forum, and I could not get an answer on what way, exactly, the tool differs physically from a heavy scraper that is sharpened in the same manner. Seems as though that is a question that still remains unanswered.......and personally, I don't think there is an answer, because the physical properties seem to be the same. I can understand that some turners don't feel comfortable sharpening tools frequently, but this isn't the case for me, or a few others. In that particular case, I would not think any less of those turners that wished to use a carbide, cobalt, or any other insert that will hold an edge longer than standard HSS tools will.

If you believe the CTT, or Ci1 has an edge that is SHARPER than and edge produced on a HSS tool, then I am in the company of others who feel you are mistaken about that. I will not disagree that the ability of the HSS edge to remain sharp might not be as lengthy as carbide, but you're going to get a disagreement if you are stating that a HSS edge isn't as sharp. (At this point, I'm not sure about how that statement applies to Cobalt steel. The edge on Cobalt steel may, or may not last as long as carbide.)

If there is something different about the way these tools cut, or their effectiveness, then there something that can be shown to be different.......not just described in some mystical way as " just better".

ooc
 
I suspect that all the commenters are correct, but are not separating the "good-nuf" factor of custom and the reality that Dennis is producing a variation of a product that has been written and marketed in several venues (Don Pencil, John Jordan, and others come to mind).

4140 chrome moly is gun barrel steel. It is a good steel, but nothing exotic. The hexagonal shape can be an asset, especially for the new turner (or Boy Scouts - am a retired Scoutmaster).

Can I make a similar tool for less than $50 or so -- yup, but unless you really like making tools or have more steel than money, I probably would not do it. My experience has not shown me much difference between a well sharpened edge of high speed steel, low tungstun or high tungstun tool steel bits.

It is all about putting a sharp edge to the wood in a consistent manner, and this tool will do that -- but if you have already trained yourself in a different style, this may not be for you.

Looks like a good way to start somone new, who may not be turning for a long time and develop fine motor skills (like scouts).

Dennis does some nice work from the pictures. Good talent in visualization.
 
It is all about putting a sharp edge to the wood in a consistent manner, and this tool will do that
Click to expand...

KenV,
I agree that putting a consistent sharp edge on a good piece of metal will give you a fine cutting tool but what about...this tool will do that? The tool looks like a steel cutter blank sharpened to a specific profile. How is this profile maintained?

I love these threads. I'm finally beginning to get a glimmer of what edge architectures are about and my use of tools has improved because of it.

Odie, your persistence has paid off for me. A few days ago, I turned a bowl almost entirely with scrapers, and they weren't all that sharp. I used a gouge to shear scrape the inside of the bowl because I couldn't get any of my scrapers in, otherwise it would have been an all scraper bowl. Incidentally, it was the best bowl I'm made so far.

Burt
 
We've had the scraping vs cutting argument many times. Scraping is easier to learn, no doubt. Proper cutting is superior, no doubt. For roughing a scraper is quite acceptable and many find it easier to use. However you should stop before the final cut and use a cutting tool for these. A cutting tool simply produces a superior surface. Excessive sanding produces a ripple surface and can destroy fine detail and sharp edges.
I'm not taking you to task for that tool. I make them for my friends who want them. They are nice for out or round large pieces. However once I've had them over to my shop and showed them how to properly use a bowl gouge for these same problems they don't always go back to the scraper.
I was turning a ball out of some lightly spalted maple this weekend. I often sneak up on the perfect sphere using a skew as a scraper. This is usually a superior cut to a regular scraper. I could not get rid or the tearout and excessive sanding would make it less than a perfect sphere. I sharpened and honed my spindle gouge and recut all the surfaces. No tearout and I started sanding with 220. This doesn't alter the shape at all.
By the way, Nick Cook has been teaching beginners to use the skew first. He says it is easier for them to understand riding the bevel of that tool than it is to understand riding the bevel of a gouge. I wouldn't have any problems teaching a new person to use the skew on large curves or straight areas.
 
Burt Alcantara said:
Odie, your persistence has paid off for me. A few days ago, I turned a bowl almost entirely with scrapers, and they weren't all that sharp. I used a gouge to shear scrape the inside of the bowl because I couldn't get any of my scrapers in, otherwise it would have been an all scraper bowl. Incidentally, it was the best bowl I'm made so far.

Burt
Click to expand...

Howdy Burt.......

Actually, I was never attempting to promote using a scraper exclusively. Everyone should use bowl gouges, as well. It's my belief that there is a time for scrapers, and there is a time for bowl gouges......and the duties of both WILL have some overlap.

The real main thrust in my post above, is to point out that the CTT, just as it is for the Ci1, really has no advantage over a scraper, sharpened and used in the same manner.

------------------------------------

John Lucas is certainly correct in pointing out the superiority of gouges......but, I'm going to add that those advantages don't always apply universally. I say, be prepared to use both, or either! There have been times where I've started with a gouge, or a scraper.......and decided to "switch-hit" on a bowl. There are many things that may make one method better over another........size, shape, species, interior vs exterior, method of mounting, direction of cut (When one contemplates the more complicated shapes, it's not always possible to cut in a direction that is best for minimal tear-out!), also, I don't know this, but I've suspected that the temperature of the wood block may effect how well a cutting edge will perform on it!

Prepare yourself to be competent using BOTH methods.......you're versatility as a bowl turner will be greatly enhanced because you understood the importance of both sides of the "scraping vs cutting" argument!.........

------------------------------------------

One additional comment. At one time Rude Osolnik (RIP) did most of his work using scrapers exclusively! It is not unreasonable to think this, or understand why, simply because the more advanced a turner gets, the more he will realize there are a multitude of ways to use scrapers........and that statement equally applies to gouges as well!

----------------------------------------------

Just because you haven't thought of it yet, doesn't mean someone else won't! 😀

ooc




.
 
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What was a revelation to me was being able to shape wood as if it were clay. That's something I can't do with a gouge. When I watch others, both pro and joes, all cut carefully and precisely. With the scraper I feel like I can share wood as if it were clay.

At any rate, I'm having a lot more fun with my scrapers then every before.
 
You can shear cut with a scraper on the inside of the bowl. It is a pull cut rather than a push cut. I know, this is cutting up hill/against the grain, but if you have the scraper in shear mode (at a 45 degree angle, not flat on the tool rest) the amount of wood it removes is very little, and it will eliminate tear out and remove all the little ripples on the inside of the bowl. The cleanliness of the cut isn't determined by which tool you are using, it is determined by having a sharp tool, and doing a shear/angled cut instead of a scraping cut. Any tool with a cutting edge can shear cut or scrape cut. Well, it might be hard to shear cut with a parting tool. Scraping cuts are for roughing, and shear cuts are for finish cuts.
robo hippy
 
Burt Alcantara said:
What was a revelation to me was being able to shape wood as if it were clay. That's something I can't do with a gouge. When I watch others, both pro and joes, all cut carefully and precisely. With the scraper I feel like I can share wood as if it were clay.

At any rate, I'm having a lot more fun with my scrapers then every before.
Click to expand...

Yep, very true Burt.....

You're hitting on one of the real advantages of scrapers......more leeway in what you can do with shaping a profile. This is not to say a certain amount of this can't be accomplished with gouges, but a gouge needs a supporting surface (the bevel) to do it well.......and that's not always possible with the more intricate of shapes.

Great that you are having fun.......enjoy! 😀

ooc
 
Odie I will certainly agree that you should try to be proficient with every tool. And I also agree that sometimes you must switch tools. I guess the point I was trying make was understanding the differences and when possible us a cutting tool vs scraping.
 
john lucas said:
Odie I will certainly agree that you should try to be proficient with every tool. And I also agree that sometimes you must switch tools. I guess the point I was trying make was understanding the differences and when possible us a cutting tool vs scraping.
Click to expand...

OK John.......In that case, our turning philosophies are probably pretty close to the same......just using different words to attempt describing our thoughts. 😀

ooc
 
"I like too many tools!"

Odie, I know exactly where you are coming from and I am right there with you. A few years ago I was teaching some older scouts turning when one started complaining about a particular tool. I stopped them right there and took out a 2 foot piece piece of 3/4 x 3/4 angle iron. I went over to the grinder and sharpened it edges went back to the lathe and turned a nice decorative spindle with a captive ring. The boys understood from then on it's not the "tool" but the "turner". Me, I like gadgets. 🙂 I enjoy using different tools and some tools I have just give me trouble. The difference between the CTT and scraper is the profile. It is much more stout and thus better cutting then a scraper. Remember it is square, so for a scraper to be "as stout" it would have to be as thick as it is wide. If you could look at a ultra low speed footage of tools in action you would not believe the flex that's going on. Flex is what causes catches, tear-out, and bad finishes. That is why the CTT is more like a PARTING tool then a scraper. Many people hate the scraper but who doesn't love the PARTING tool! 😀 As for the Ci1 that tool has a raked tip and is really sharp. The stoutness and sharpness of that tool along with the increased contact of the square body on the tool rest makes for some pleasurable turning. But Odie, I have seen your work and it's beautiful. It's just different "toys" that's all.. 😉
 
John Neugebauer said:
Odie, I know exactly where you are coming from and I am right there with you. A few years ago I was teaching some older scouts turning when one started complaining about a particular tool. I stopped them right there and took out a 2 foot piece piece of 3/4 x 3/4 angle iron. I went over to the grinder and sharpened it edges went back to the lathe and turned a nice decorative spindle with a captive ring. The boys understood from then on it's not the "tool" but the "turner". Me, I like gadgets. 🙂 I enjoy using different tools and some tools I have just give me trouble. The difference between the CTT and scraper is the profile. It is much more stout and thus better cutting then a scraper. Remember it is square, so for a scraper to be "as stout" it would have to be as thick as it is wide. If you could look at a ultra low speed footage of tools in action you would not believe the flex that's going on. Flex is what causes catches, tear-out, and bad finishes. That is why the CTT is more like a PARTING tool then a scraper. Many people hate the scraper but who doesn't love the PARTING tool! 😀 As for the Ci1 that tool has a raked tip and is really sharp. The stoutness and sharpness of that tool along with the increased contact of the square body on the tool rest makes for some pleasurable turning. But Odie, I have seen your work and it's beautiful. It's just different "toys" that's all.. 😉
Click to expand...

Thank you sincerely for the compliment, John.......

It's true that every turner learns to do things his way....."different toys", as you say. I do believe in that.....

Good enough!

Just thought I'd put this link in here for Sorby 1/2" thick scrapers. I've got some of these, and they see regular use. The 1/2" wide round nose is a square shank of HSS! ......not all scrapers are the usual 3/16" thick, or so. I'm mentioning this because you mentioned "flex" with the thinner scrapers.

click to see 1/2" thick scrapers:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5160

ooc
 
something similar

Something fairly similar 1/4,3/8, and 1/2" tips on 3/4" shafting except the 1/2" is on 1" shafting
 

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