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I enjoy an enlightening discussion

A

arbud

Joined
Apr 24, 2004
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Winston, OR
PREMISE: The brand of lathe tool (gouge) that you use will make a significant contribution to your ability to turn quality pieces.

MY VIEW: 'Tain't necessarily so, unless having an "expensive" tool gives you greater confidence.
 
Hi Airbud.

Fact: there are many different kinds of steel with many different properties including how hard they are, how brittle they are, how much they vibrate, and how sharp an edge they will take and hold (related to the particle composition of the steel, and more expensive doesn't necessarilly mean sharper edge). There are also many variables in quality in any given category of steel.

Generally, the harder and more durable steel is more expensive. Additionally, to get it hard, durable, and able to take a truly fine edge takes even more detail in it's manufacture thus making it even more expensive.

Also, consistancy of the metal is very important as inconsistancies create variable performance and strength. A tool with spots of increased durability will have spots that wear unevenly as you use the tool, creating grabs and marks.

Fact: the quality of milling on the surface of the tool affects the edge. Poorly milled steel will have tiny ridges and bumps that, when the tool is sharpened, will create an irregular edge that no amount of sharpening will clean up. This can be mitigated somewhat by sanding the flute of a gouge or the surface of a scraper but is a pain.

So,
Conclusion: The quality of a tool can affect the performance of the turner. A better tool will not automatically improve your skill but a lower quality tool will reduce or limit your performance.

How's that?
Dietrich
 
Dietrich, your points are well-made and, in all probability, based upon your years of experience and observation.

I began turning at the end of 2001. In those few years I have noticed 3 things: 1. My "cheap", HSS, tools hold an edge as well as either my Crown or Sorby tools. 2. The "cheap" tools are neither more nor less difficult to sharpen.
3. The cuts made by the tools are identical.

The above refers to roughing, spindle, bowl gouges, and skews only. When one gets into "speciality" tools the situation changes. The basic reason for the change is that it's virtually impossible to find a "cheap" a hollowing set as well as many other tools.

I have a Sorby, 2mm, flutted, parting,tool that is a fantastic tool. Would this tool make a better cut if it were M7 steel as opposed to M2 steel? I don't know.

My being self-taught may have some bearing on my observations. I have tried to be objective. I also believe that both of us will follow this discussion in hope of expanding our understanding.
 
dkulze said:
Hi Airbud.

Fact: there are many different kinds of steel with many different properties including how hard they are, how brittle they are, how much they vibrate, and how sharp an edge they will take and hold (related to the particle composition of the steel, and more expensive doesn't necessarilly mean sharper edge). There are also many variables in quality in any given category of steel.

Generally, the harder and more durable steel is more expensive. Additionally, to get it hard, durable, and able to take a truly fine edge takes even more detail in it's manufacture thus making it even more expensive.

Also, consistancy of the metal is very important as inconsistancies create variable performance and strength. A tool with spots of increased durability will have spots that wear unevenly as you use the tool, creating grabs and marks.

Fact: the quality of milling on the surface of the tool affects the edge. Poorly milled steel will have tiny ridges and bumps that, when the tool is sharpened, will create an irregular edge that no amount of sharpening will clean up. This can be mitigated somewhat by sanding the flute of a gouge or the surface of a scraper but is a pain.

So,
Conclusion: The quality of a tool can affect the performance of the turner. A better tool will not automatically improve your skill but a lower quality tool will reduce or limit your performance.

How's that?
Dietrich
Click to expand...
True, but turners were using high carbon, and worse steel for tools for centuries; these guys were turning out good work every day. In the pre plastic era many more things were made of wood. Wood cups, platters, bowls, bobbins, spools etc. were used every day. They turned every day. If thier work wasn't good enough to sell they didn't make any money.Today’s steel lets us sharpen less often. I think tool shape and stiffness, when needed, are just as important. Of course those pole and treadle turners never got their stuff spinning at 3000 R.P.M. either. Then again you could give me Richard Raffan’s entire set of tools and a Oneway Lathe and I’d still be a hack. :(
 
Please don't missunderstand me. I don't mean to say that less expensive tools don't work well or that no-one could do good stuff with high carbon steel tools. And just cause a tool costs more doesn't mean it is better. It may be the same tool with a fancy name on it.

What I do know is that the reason we are supposed to pay more for these tools is improved performance, not to give us instant skill. This might mean it holds an edge longer. It may mean that the flute is cut in a specific way to change the cut. It may mean that someone has put a fancy name and legitimate but meaningless claims to the piece.

An example of spending more for more would be the Glaesser (is this correct spelling?) gouges. A friend of mine obtained one and I've had the chance to use it a couple of times. I have Sorby gouges myself and have been very happy with what is generally felt to be a high quality tool.

Man!
Oh man!
And Wow too!

The tool is so amazingly stable and makes such a clean cut it is unbelievable. My understanding is that the steel used will take and maintain an increadably fine edge and that the handle is specifically designed to damp vibrations.

This tool doesn't instantly make me a wonderful turner but it is an absolute pleasure to use, lets me do stuff I can already do much easier, and gives me a sense that I could grow with it indefinitely and learn to do some things that are more difficult with another tool.

Quality makes a difference in the performance you can get from the tool. It doesn't make the turner.

Best analogy I can give is tennis raquets. Give me the best raquet in the world and I ain't going to be a pro. Give a pro a nasty raquet and they can still whoop my butt thoroughly. But give me the nasty and there is only so far I can go with it also before I've maxed out it's performance. Also give one pro a nasty and one a nice and the nice will generally kick butt(hence Becker's defeats against lesser foes when metal came out and he insisted on staying with wood).




Dietrich
 
Sometimes we are self limiting

I have had the experience several times of using a tool for a long time and getting a certain level of results. Then I use a better one, and wow! gee! I didn't know it was so easy!

Also had that experience when I upgraded lathes.

Sometimes we don't know that the work could be easier with a better tool.

So, a beginner is a beginner whether with harbor freight or sorby. An experienced tool user can compensate for the problems with poor tools. A beginner has lots of problems and frustrations, and doesn't have the experience to overcome them. If better tools remove some problems, they are probably worth the cost.

I still get chintzy when I look at tool prices, but when I buy quality, I find that I am happier with the tool in my hand, which is what it is all about.

Walt C
 
How about tools vs woods

Tool performance is difficult to measure if all that you turn would cut just as well with a butterknife. There are so many different woods with different properties and varying content of impurities. What I refer to is that some woods absorb their environment. For axample, I cut up a lot of Koa on my bandsaw always using the same type of blade (3/8" -3 tpi). This accounts for always using the same tool. At times I get a load of wood that allows me to make around 600 + or - cuts. Once in a while I get a piece, or log, that has absorbed so must grit from a dusty area that I am lucky to get almost anything cut. I once was cutting bowl blanks about 12"-14" dia. and had cut over a dozen with one blade. Then I came upon a SOB with grit and it took 2 blades just for that 1 piece. Very curly wood again plays havoc causing the blade not to be able to cut straight in both planes.
My analogy is that it is difficult to compare different brands and qualities of tools when there is so much possible variables in the wood that we work.
Myself, I have Henry Taylor, Sorby, Crown, Hamlet and Glaser tools. I have at least 1 of each of these brands in a 1/2" bowl gauge and basically, it's difficult to measure any difference in the way that they perform, except for tha Glaser which, IMO stands above all of the rest. When I get into a nasty piece of wood, they all need a lot of sharpening, with the glaser being the least. And that ad about a certain tool lasting 4.5 times longer then a M2 HSS tool, don't believe it.
Just my experience, for what it may be worth.
Aloha
Doug Leite
 
Just as an aside, Doug, when you run up against one of those really curly pieces of Koa that are so hard on your band saw, you should just save youself the heartache and dispose of them responsibly. I'll even be a martyr and offer to take them off your hands and deal with them safely (I have access to a special disposal system for such toxic and dangerous woods as Koa, burls, ambrosiad wood, etc).

I'll even expand the offer to anyone with such a dangerous and tempermental wood. Just mail it to me and I'll deal with it, free of charge.

I know. I'm generous but, eh, it's in my nature.

Dietrich :rolleyes:
 
So generous

;) Dietrich
Thanks,hehehe, for your generous offer of self sacrifice. I will keep your offer in mind (don't hold your breath).
Aloha, Doug
 
phooey.

Well, I figure if I keep trying, someones gonna send me wood. Kinda like the guy that stands at the corner and asks every woman that passes to kiss him. Most will say no but odds are that, eventually, someone will say yes.

Dietrich
 
If you are a poor turner I don't think just buying expensive tools will immediately turn you into a good turner. In fact a good turner can make beautiful work with bad tools. It might be easier for the good turner with higher quality tools, but a good turner will find a way to perform no matter the quality of tools.

I myself enjoy the challange of building my own tools and at least half of what I use were built in my own shop. Are they better then "store bought" - probably not. They probably work better for me because I turned the handles to fit MY hand, I made the length what I like to use and because if they don't work like I want I don't hesitate to remake them!

I find that often tools that are resonably priced get a bad reputation because woodworkers and turners that are mediocre want to blame the tool and not thier own skill. They don't want to take the time to learn proper techniques in sharpening, bevel presentation, tool control, etc. so they blame thier shortcomings on having lower priced tools. No matter what tool you put in their hand it would be at fault.

A sad sign of our time - many in our day want to blame their shortcomings on someone or something other than themselves!

Wilford
 
arbud said:
PREMISE: The brand of lathe tool (gouge) that you use will make a significant contribution to your ability to turn quality pieces.

MY VIEW: 'Tain't necessarily so, unless having an "expensive" tool gives you greater confidence.
Click to expand...

The tool has little to do with your ability. While a turner may have a preferance over a certian tool (whether its steel composition, bevel angle, profile...), the tool cannot make the turner better than he is. If I do not have the talent or skill to turn a certian piece or make a certian cut, a better quality tool will not suddenly turn me into Richard Raffan.

If you reworded the above to something like "The brand of lathe tool (gouge) that you use can make a contribution to your ability to turn quality pieces.", I would agree with that.
 
I've seen the light

My thanks to all of you who have either read or read and responded to the original posting.

I have read and I am enlightened. A point of view is a treasure whether it agrees with yours or not. It seems that the gist of the matter appears to be, "If a 'tool' works for you, and to your satisfaction, then continue. If a 'tool' doesn't do it's work to your satisfaction then look for a 'better' tool."
 
That sounds like a fair enough assessment, Bud. I'd add to it that, whenever given the opportunity to use someone else's "better" tool, take it for the experience. Can't say how many times my "old, outdated" tool was going to be replaced until I tried the one that was supposedly "better." I've also replaced a few "perfectly good" ones after finding out that "better" was.

Thanks for the thread,
Dietrich
 
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