HVLP: Fuji or something else... or not at all?

[Mark Hepburn]

I could use some input from the experienced spray system finishers here. Do I keep a never used Fuji or find something else before I start using this one? First, the long, sad story :-D

I've been using wipe-on, brush-on (and so on) finishes forever. A few years ago I had the good fortune to be able to buy a Fuji Semi-Pro2 with some related supplies and so on.

But because of surgery on first the right, and then the left hand, I haven't had much shop time (still rehabbing the left). When I did, I mostly puttered and didn't want to get into a whole new learning curve so it has been sitting here collecting dust.

I expect to be back in the shop by the end of June and will be doing some flat work. Probably won't be doing any finishing until late July. I will definitely be using it for poly right at the start: about 20 linear feet of new build kitchen cabinet uppers and some other stuff. With shelves, door faces, frames and such, it's a good many square feet. I'd like to spray and am willing to burn through scrap until ready to use a new system.

The question is, do I keep this Fuji or sell it and move to something else? I'm able to move the turbine unit about 12 feet away at most, and the Fuji sounds like a jackhammer in a tunnel. I've read that Apollo makes a quieter unit but if we're talking 106 vs 100 dB, then it may not be worth pursuing (although I understand that sound pressure increases logarithmically).

I'm thinking that I'll be using it mainly for solvent-based finishes, because I have no interest in water-borne / water-based finishes (mainly because I just don't know enough about them currently).

Clearly I don't know enough to know what other information the pros here need to offer input, but if someone will tell me what information I'm leaving out I can add to this?

Thanks!

Mark

 

[Bob Sheppard]

Mark-
I've been using an HVLP sprayer for probably 25 years now. Its great for larger projects. I have an older, commercial Wagner unit, and while its loud, I just wear hearing protection. Its only 2 stage, so I can't spray heavier viscosity finishes, like paints.
From what I've heard, Fuji makes pretty nice units. Maybe try it out before getting something else?
I've only sprayed water based, and very occasionally, shellac finishes. My shop is in my basement, and I don't want the liability of spraying solvent finishes down there. I like my house . Water based finishes have made great strides in quality and usability.
I stared with Crystalac finishes, but now use Hydrocote. Both are similar, but I can buy Hydrocote locally. One big advantage of the water based finishes, at least for me, is that I can spray multiple coats in a day. I can usually recoat in less than an hour. Plus, clean up is pretty easy, I just run soapy water through the gun.
I do wear a mask while spraying.

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

I've had a Fuji for several years and it does everything I want it to. What model do you have? As far as noise, I put the turbine in another room and use a cheap remote to turn the turbine on and off.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I have a DeVilbiss HVLP spray gun, but it is somewhat costly plus it requires a big air compressor that can continuously deliver a high volume of air at low pressure. It also is a good idea to have good air filtration like 5 microns plus a coalescing filter to remove water vapor.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark-
I've been using an HVLP sprayer for probably 25 years now. Its great for larger projects. I have an older, commercial Wagner unit, and while its loud, I just wear hearing protection. Its only 2 stage, so I can't spray heavier viscosity finishes, like paints.
From what I've heard, Fuji makes pretty nice units. Maybe try it out before getting something else?
I've only sprayed water based, and very occasionally, shellac finishes. My shop is in my basement, and I don't want the liability of spraying solvent finishes down there. I like my house . Water based finishes have made great strides in quality and usability.
I stared with Crystalac finishes, but now use Hydrocote. Both are similar, but I can buy Hydrocote locally. One big advantage of the water based finishes, at least for me, is that I can spray multiple coats in a day. I can usually recoat in less than an hour. Plus, clean up is pretty easy, I just run soapy water through the gun.
I do wear a mask while spraying.

Bob, thanks. Sounds to me like I may want to rethink my water based finishes. I like the dry times and recoats, and definitely the cleanup, which I hadn't considered at all. I guess I could put in my shooting earplugs (Decibullz, which I would recommend to anyone).

I was concerned about using the Fuji and then trying to sell it as used rather than "new, never used". Crass commercialism as G. Gordon Liddy would say. :-D

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I've had a Fuji for several years and it does everything I want it to. What model do you have? As far as noise, I put the turbine in another room and use a cheap remote to turn the turbine on and off.

Grant, I have the Semi-Pro 2. It has a 25 foot hose and came with a remote, but I'd probably have to build a baffle for the noise - or as Bob suggested, just wear hearing protection.

Which Fuji are you using?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I have a DeVilbiss HVLP spray gun, but it is somewhat costly plus it requires a big air compressor that can continuously deliver a high volume of air at low pressure. It also is a good idea to have good air filtration like 5 microns plus a coalescing filter to remove water vapor.

Hey Bill, this Fuji came with a gravity spray gun that is supposed to be pretty good. Probably better than I would be able to appreciate until I develop some skill with the thing. I have a hanging Jet filter; 1040 CFM (yeah, sure), claimed to filter 98% 5 micron and 85% 1 micron. Of course, everybody knows it's that last 15% that'll kill you in the end. :-D

Is that the kind of filtering system you mean? Just FYI, I have a partitioned off space for a "paint booth". About 10 x 8, with a large exterior window. The "walls" are heavy plastic drop cloth hanging from shower curtain rings and running along a couple pieces of cheap electrical conduit. You know, like an Intel clean room would be.

My compressor is just a smallish 10 gallon CAT that will give me about 6 CFM (but I got it because it has auto drain, is reputed to be reliable, and was also supposed to be very quiet - and indeed it is). My next compressor purchase if I ever figure out how to rationalize it is a large Quincy or IR or something).

 

[Bill Boehme]

I meant an air line filter. I also would love to have an IR or Quincy. I have a single stage cast iron compressor with a 25 gallon tank. It's not too bad, but it isn't able to keep up if I needed to do a large surface ... which I haven't done in a long time. Unless you enjoy a cheap high you really need a large explosion proof exhaust fan. I don't have a good place to spray so I use the great outdoors. The bugs tell me whether the finish is dry enough to handle.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Also, if you're going to spray indoors with a solvent based finish then you need a respirator with appropriate filters.

Your Jet filter hanging on the ceiling is good for cleaning the air in the shop primarily to keep your shop clean. It really isn't very useful for respiratory protection because your lungs are much closer to the source of the dust being generated. The way that I look at it is that my lungs would be prolonging the useful life of the ceiling mounted air filter. I have a feeling that something is not quite right about that picture.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I meant an air line filter. I also would love to have an IR or Quincy. I have a single stage cast iron compressor with a 25 gallon tank. It's not too bad, but it isn't able to keep up if I needed to do a large surface ... which I haven't done in a long time. Unless you enjoy a cheap high you really need a large explosion proof exhaust fan. I don't have a good place to spray so I use the great outdoors. The bugs tell me whether the finish is dry enough to handle.

Bill, what kind of bugs are you using and where can I get some to indicate dryness?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill, what kind of bugs are you using and where can I get some to indicate dryness?

My favorite are the tiny gnats that like to get in my ears or nose on a hot sweltering summer day. The tiny tiger mosquitoes are also good for this purpose. They seem to be especially attracted to the fragrance of VOC's outgassing from a tacky finish. If you aren't able to find any in your swampy delta I can send you a flat rate box full of them.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

My favorite are the tiny gnats that like to get in my ears or nose on a hot sweltering summer day. The tiny tiger mosquitoes are also good for this purpose. They seem to be especially attracted to the fragrance of VOC's outgassing from a tacky finish. If you aren't able to find any in your swampy delta I can send you a flat rate box full of them.

Yes, those gnats are lovely this time of year. And sand flies. Mosquitoes? We laugh at mosquitoes.

(seriously, no we don't. I dread walking my dog after dusk until about 9:00 or so).

 

[Doug Freeman]

Never used a turbine unit, cant help you there except to say they can struggle with higher viscosity finishes like water-based depends on no. of stages. I use a gravity feed hvlp conversion gun with compressed air.

Some general spray finish comments:

- I use a similar spray area. Need an exhaust fan, water or solvent based. Need to pull overspray out. I use a 1000 cfm blower with filters to trap overspray.

- water based finishes are great except they do not provide chatoyance. I use shellac under them for that.

- In general solvent finishes are easier to spray. Can be thinned as much as needed, flow very well, much easier to “see where you are” while spraying. Waterbased is very different - looks like crap while spraying then flows out. Just takes experimentation.

- Different needle and tips sets are needed for different viscosities for best results.

- learn about toning. Almost impossible except by spraying. Great enhancement to finishes.

- spraying allows many more options in finishes and effects/coloring

- Spraying is just another learned skill, takes time to increase knowledge and more time to practice applying the knowledge to learn the skill, just like your other ww skills

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Never used a turbine unit, cant help you there except to say they can struggle with higher viscosity finishes like water-based depends on no. of stages. I use a gravity feed hvlp conversion gun with compressed air.

Some general spray finish comments:

- I use a similar spray area. Need an exhaust fan, water or solvent based. Need to pull overspray out. I use a 1000 cfm blower with filters to trap overspray.

- water based finishes are great except they do not provide chatoyance. I use shellac under them for that.

- In general solvent finishes are easier to spray. Can be thinned as much as needed, flow very well, much easier to “see where you are” while spraying. Waterbased is very different - looks like crap while spraying then flows out. Just takes experimentation.

- Different needle and tips sets are needed for different viscosities for best results.

- learn about toning. Almost impossible except by spraying. Great enhancement to finishes.

- spraying allows many more options in finishes and effects/coloring

- Spraying is just another learned skill, takes time to increase knowledge and more time to practice applying the knowledge to learn the skill, just like your other ww skills

Hey Doug,

Thanks for the thoughts cowboy! I'm especially focused on a couple things you said about chatoyance and using shellac. So you underspray some shellac or wipe on then spray on a water based finish? And it has no negative impact on the appearance and especially the chatoyance the shellac enhances? Also, toning is definitely something I'd like to develop a skill set with over time.

I got the impression that water based isn't as friendly about thinning. Does thinning "break" the product, or do you have to use additives (floetrol or similar)? Just asking, as I'm still on the fence but Bob's thoughts and experience in water based have given me a reason to reconsider my bias against them. And of course, if I use a water-based product I'll get faster results with those gnats that Bill is sending me. :-D

By the way, How are the Cowboys looking for this year? I'm a diehard LSU fan, but sure do like coach Gundy. And I used to do BBQ for T. Boone Pickens and about 150 of his employees every year in Lafayette back when he had Mesa Petroleum. He is a colorful, and truly nice guy. He'd come in the kitchen and hang out, and spend time with my kids who were at the time about 10 and 7 (it was a family thing). Anyway, have a great season!

 

[Doug Freeman]

Mark,

Not real sure ‘bout them Cowboys this year - qb and defense has been an issue the last few years. Sometimes I dont watch, afraid I’m sending them bad karma ‘cause when I watch they seem to find a way to lose.

The shellac can be sprayed, wiped, brushed. I prefer spray 1) no lap or brush marks, 2) no concern of dragging dye/stain, 3) I tone the shellac, and you dont want to wipe or brush a toner. Wb finish can lift wb dye/stain, so the shellac serves as a sealer as well (dewaxed shellac). A wb finish will reduce the chatoyance of shellac a little, but that is more dependent on the gloss level of the wb finish. WB refracts light differently than solvent finishes due to the solids used.

The big advantage of wb is voc’s. I started using them so I could spray in my heated shop in the winter, not having to worry about blowing myself up with solvent based finishes (cant ventilate enough to spray solvent lacquer in winter).

My favorite to spray is solvent lacquer - sprays great, looks great, easy to repair, etc, but... requires health and safety considerations, and is not suitable for tough applications like the top of a dining table. FYI for your kitchen cabs I’d recommend solvent precat lacquer. I refuse to spray solvent poly - easy to spray, but super slow to dry so is a bug magnet, and the overspray doesnt dry until after it lands, on everything, and turns all surfaces to 100 grit sandpaper. Overspray for wb products and solvent lacquer and shellac will dry in the air before contact and you just sweep up the dust.

So, what type of finish to use depends not only on the project type, but also work environment factors. Spraying is definitely worth the effort and expense. It opens a whole world of effects to really up your finishing capabilities, flat or round.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I’d recommend solvent precat lacquer.

If you're going to be mixing your own lacquer to spray why not use post cat. My club buys custom high solids precat lacquer in pre-charged aerosol cans. It's really nice and convenient, but it has a shelf life that is much shorter than plain lacquer.

 

[Bob Sheppard]

Hey Doug,

Thanks for the thoughts cowboy! I'm especially focused on a couple things you said about chatoyance and using shellac. So you underspray some shellac or wipe on then spray on a water based finish? And it has no negative impact on the appearance and especially the chatoyance the shellac enhances? Also, toning is definitely something I'd like to develop a skill set with over time.

I got the impression that water based isn't as friendly about thinning. Does thinning "break" the product, or do you have to use additives (floetrol or similar)? Just asking, as I'm still on the fence but Bob's thoughts and experience in water based have given me a reason to reconsider my bias against them. And of course, if I use a water-based product I'll get faster results with those gnats that Bill is sending me. :-D

By the way, How are the Cowboys looking for this year? I'm a diehard LSU fan, but sure do like coach Gundy. And I used to do BBQ for T. Boone Pickens and about 150 of his employees every year in Lafayette back when he had Mesa Petroleum. He is a colorful, and truly nice guy. He'd come in the kitchen and hang out, and spend time with my kids who were at the time about 10 and 7 (it was a family thing). Anyway, have a great season!

Mark- I have yet to find a water base finish that I need to thin. HydroCote even makes a white finish that's sprays very well. You can check out their stuff at www.hoodfinishing.com.
Latex paints need to be thinned quite a bit for me to run them through my 2 stage system, but with some work, it can be done.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark,

Not real sure ‘bout them Cowboys this year - qb and defense has been an issue the last few years. Sometimes I dont watch, afraid I’m sending them bad karma ‘cause when I watch they seem to find a way to lose.

My beloved has actually stood in the kitchen only listening to a game on the TV so as not to mess up a good scoring drive.

The shellac can be sprayed, wiped, brushed. I prefer spray 1) no lap or brush marks, 2) no concern of dragging dye/stain, 3) I tone the shellac, and you dont want to wipe or brush a toner. Wb finish can lift wb dye/stain, so the shellac serves as a sealer as well (dewaxed shellac). A wb finish will reduce the chatoyance of shellac a little, but that is more dependent on the gloss level of the wb finish. WB refracts light differently than solvent finishes due to the solids used.

The big advantage of wb is voc’s. I started using them so I could spray in my heated shop in the winter, not having to worry about blowing myself up with solvent based finishes (cant ventilate enough to spray solvent lacquer in winter).

My favorite to spray is solvent lacquer - sprays great, looks great, easy to repair, etc, but... requires health and safety considerations, and is not suitable for tough applications like the top of a dining table. FYI for your kitchen cabs I’d recommend solvent precat lacquer. I refuse to spray solvent poly - easy to spray, but super slow to dry so is a bug magnet, and the overspray doesnt dry until after it lands, on everything, and turns all surfaces to 100 grit sandpaper. Overspray for wb products and solvent lacquer and shellac will dry in the air before contact and you just sweep up the dust.

So, what type of finish to use depends not only on the project type, but also work environment factors. Spraying is definitely worth the effort and expense. It opens a whole world of effects to really up your finishing capabilities, flat or round.

Sold. I'm keeping the Fuji and am seriously considering the pre-catalyzed lacquer. Given the down side of poly and the dry times of the lacquer...

 

[Mark Hepburn]

If you're going to be mixing your own lacquer to spray why not use post cat. My club buys custom high solids precat lacquer in pre-charged aerosol cans. It's really nice and convenient, but it has a shelf life that is much shorter than plain lacquer.

Hey Bill, are you sure you didn't mean cat post? :-D

Seriously, I'm not at all familiar with lacquer other than rattle cans and brushing so have a lot to learn. If you guys can poiint me to some good info. Otherwise, I'll have to resort to hard labor research (Google). But the product you (and Doug) are talking about are, I assume, products that work in a gravity HVLP gun?

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hey Bill, are you sure you didn't mean cat post? :-D

Seriously, I'm not at all familiar with lacquer other than rattle cans and brushing so have a lot to learn. If you guys can poiint me to some good info. Otherwise, I'll have to resort to hard labor research (Google). But the product you (and Doug) are talking about are, I assume, products that work in a gravity HVLP gun?

The cat is far from knowing much except many ways to get into trouble. We need the expert like @Steve Worcester to set us straight. Our club had a program from an expert on finishing, but that's been a while. He said that he was an expert, but ........

There;s probably not much difference in the final results between pre and post catalyzed lacquer, but the post cat for spray gun has a very short pot life of just a few days or a month depending on a bunch of stuff while the pre cat in rattle can is good for months or maybe even years .... I'm not sure. The nice thing about pre cat in a rattle can is convenience. Mostly I just use plain nitrocellulose lacquer.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Mark - all the finishes I will discuss can be used in an HVLP gravity gun, and post cat can also.

I only brought up cat lacquer for the cabinets Mark needs to do. For turnings, plain old nc lacquer is fine. Cat lacquers provide much better wear and moisture resistance. Post cat might be an option depending on the supplier you use. I only have Sherwin-Williams, and post cat is only available in 5 gal, where precat comes 1 gal. Precat shelf life is ~6 months, which is ok when doing a large project, but doesn't work for occasional small stuff. They also have a CAB acrylic lacquer that doesn't yellow, if doing light colors, but it's not available catalyzed.

My comments on wb finish through a turbine come from reading comments from others over the years. I've never used one. My research 10 years ago, as I was getting into spray finishes, led me to a conversion hvlp gun (uses separate compressed air) due to issues with spraying wb with turbines, namely the heat of the turbine air causing issues, lesser stage turbines not being able to properly atomize some wb finishes due to viscosity (typically wb can be thinned up to 10% with water). and then the large diameter hose they require. Except for portability, which I didn't need, turbines are less flexible in what they can do, but then a compressed air gun requires a decent sized compressor. Each person's situation is different.

The Fuji brand is highly regarded for turbine types. I wish I could tell you whether it will do everything you will ever need, but ... it will definitely get you started and do many things well. I would research your model for experience with wb finishes. Solvent finishes usually can be thinned enough to spray, as in 1:1 if needed. Can't do that with wb - they are more limited in thinning. As for turbine vs compressed air guns, this site has good info http://www.spraygunworld.com/Information2/Help.htm.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

The cat is far from knowing much except many ways to get into trouble. We need the expert like @Steve Worcester to set us straight. Our club had a program from an expert on finishing, but that's been a while. He said that he was an expert, but ........

There;s probably not much difference in the final results between pre and post catalyzed lacquer, but the post cat for spray gun has a very short pot life of just a few days or a month depending on a bunch of stuff while the pre cat in rattle can is good for months or maybe even years .... I'm not sure. The nice thing about pre cat in a rattle can is convenience. Mostly I just use plain nitrocellulose lacquer.

I've never used the precat, but nitrocellulose I have. I'm reasonably comfortable with that and if it's application characteristics are similar then the gun / turbine is the only real difference and like you and Doug said, that's just a skill you develop.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark - all the finishes I will discuss can be used in an HVLP gravity gun, and post cat can also.

I only brought up cat lacquer for the cabinets Mark needs to do. For turnings, plain old nc lacquer is fine. Cat lacquers provide much better wear and moisture resistance. Post cat might be an option depending on the supplier you use. I only have Sherwin-Williams, and post cat is only available in 5 gal, where precat comes 1 gal. Precat shelf life is ~6 months, which is ok when doing a large project, but doesn't work for occasional small stuff. They also have a CAB acrylic lacquer that doesn't yellow, if doing light colors, but it's not available catalyzed.

My comments on wb finish through a turbine come from reading comments from others over the years. I've never used one. My research 10 years ago, as I was getting into spray finishes, led me to a conversion hvlp gun (uses separate compressed air) due to issues with spraying wb with turbines, namely the heat of the turbine air causing issues, lesser stage turbines not being able to properly atomize some wb finishes due to viscosity (typically wb can be thinned up to 10% with water). and then the large diameter hose they require. Except for portability, which I didn't need, turbines are less flexible in what they can do, but then a compressed air gun requires a decent sized compressor. Each person's situation is different.

The Fuji brand is highly regarded for turbine types. I wish I could tell you whether it will do everything you will ever need, but ... it will definitely get you started and do many things well. I would research your model for experience with wb finishes. Solvent finishes usually can be thinned enough to spray, as in 1:1 if needed. Can't do that with wb - they are more limited in thinning. As for turbine vs compressed air guns, this site has good info http://www.spraygunworld.com/Information2/Help.htm.

I'm very interested in the precat finish with the gun, but I'm also going to look into the properties of the post-cat so I understand the +/- of each (and of course, everything has its place). I'm dug in on the turbine because of where my "spray booth" is located. My compressor is a 10 gal California Air, which is a fantastic unit for my current needs. Even were I to upgrade to a big boy compressor, I can't run lines to where the finishing is done, which is actually in a converted bedroom that was converted from a sunroom (that was converted from a garage that was once a carport. Seriously.)

The Fuji came wth a 25' hose and yesterday I moved it about 20' away. I'll get a whip hose for it, which I was because the blue one they include is built to last, but not to hold up and wave around as you spray. Think schedule 80 PVC . Talk about flexibility, or the lack of. But as for my situation, it will literally pay for itself with this one project and my experience based on that will help me decide how to proceed.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I'm dug in on the turbine because of where my "spray booth" is located. My compressor is a 10 gal California Air, which is a fantastic unit for my current needs. Even were I to upgrade to a big boy compressor, I can't run lines to where the finishing is done, which is actually in a converted bedroom that was converted from a sunroom (that was converted from a garage that was once a carport. Seriously.)

The Fuji came wth a 25' hose and yesterday I moved it about 20' away. I'll get a whip hose for it, which I was because the blue one they include is built to last, but not to hold up and wave around as you spray. Think schedule 80 PVC . Talk about flexibility, or the lack of. But as for my situation, it will literally pay for itself with this one project and my experience based on that will help me decide how to proceed.

I have actually used my spray gun at the end of 100 ft of 1/4" hose and 50 ft of 3/8" hose (150 ft total). Just so you know it can be done.

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

@mark: I apologize for the long delay in replying. I've not been on the forum for a while. My Fuji is the Q3 Pro. I bought it in November 2004, so I imagine they have made some improvements/changes since then. It has a lot of miles on it, but still works fine. I've used it for waterborne polys and lacquers, pre-cat lacquer, shellac, aniline dyes, lacquer stains and some enamels. I only have the tip and needle that it came with, and I've used it for all those finished with good results.

 

[David Stricker]

I'm late to the party but I use Sherwin Williams precat lacquer with a $29 Harbour Freight pot type spray gun. I'm on my third of fourth gallon of lacquer and first bottle of hardener. I have a little pancake compressor to drive it. A bigger compressor would be nice. I don't clean the gun between uses. I just hanging on the wall. I finish in batches so it may be several weeks between uses. When I need more finish I just mix up 12 or 16 ounces and add it to what is in the spray gun. I've been working this way for five or more years. My spray booth is a large cardboard box. I do wear a chemical respirator when spraying. This stuff dries in about 10 minutes so with several pieces, I just rotate through them. I let them dry overnight before buffing. The inside of bowls takes longer to dry. I think the vapor just stays in the bowl. I used to spray with the garage door open but that doesn't work since we've moved to a new house. The chemical respirator is required. Most people don't believe that you can leave the lacquer in the spray gun. It works for me. The only problem that I have had is that the vent on the spray gun has plugged a couple of times recently and I've had to push a needle through it to clear it. The precat lacquer is used for cabinet finish and is a great durable finish and buffs well with the Beal buffs. Just another option.