How to use the Gallery photos, comments and rating capability.....

[Odie]

I have been monitoring the gallery photos for some time now, and have been thinking improvements can be made to make it better.......just what those improvements would be, is a matter for discussion in this thread. Forums administrators and moderators.....I hope you take note and participate in whatever direction this discussion takes......

It is difficult to rate the photos any less than a "10", or not at all. But, I'll probably change that, because I've now realized that rating can be done anonymously. I guess I don't want to hurt feelings, because I know most of these photos are from those who aren't looking for critical evaluation, and simply feel a sense of pride/accomplishment in their works. I've been giving a "10", even when it hasn't been entirely honest (but usually it is!)......but, always with a comment.

It might be a good thing to have a reference as to how many ratings have been given, and the overall average rating......Wouldn't it give a better overall perspective if 100 people rated your turning at an "8", rather than 2 people rated your work as a "10".......?

I would only offer critical evaluation only those times when it's specifically asked for......and, even then, I have my own set of likes and dislikes......my opinion isn't relevant in most cases. This might be a forum rule: No criticism, unless it's asked for......and I'd add that nobody should evaluate another's works unless they have have their own forum member photo gallery. (That way, the recipient can see just how much value he can apply to the critique. I, personally, would have much greater respect for evaluation from somebody whose work I admired......and less from those I don't. Make sense?)

Not being able to rate a photo without a gallery of their own work, just might encourage more member galleries, and greater participation in this forum.....

Early on, when I first came to this forum, I accidentally rated one of Ed Koenig's works at the lowest #1, or poor rating. This was purely an accident, and was done because I was testing the system and didn't realize I was actually doing a rating. Of those photos I've seen in the gallery, I can't think of any that I would have given a rating less than about the middle.....or, a "5", or so. Ed Koenig subsequently deleted his photo and I apologized to him for my mistake.....I admire just about everything he shows us, excellent work. The point is that Ed didn't like the rating at all, and felt so frustrated with me that the photo was deleted. The poor rating was in conjunction with a comment, so he knew exactly who gave it......and, he let me know of his displeasure with me! He should have had the option to delete my comment instead.

Maybe the turner should have the option to delete comments for his photo?

Maybe the observer should have the option to change his mind about the rating he gave?

Maybe it would be best to make all ratings anonymous? That way, it's easy to be honest about it, and probably would make more feel better about giving a rating.

To add to honest input, is it possible that the ratings statistics not be known until after a rating is given? (.....except by the person showing his work, of course.)

Anyway, I have some other thoughts, but will close this off and invite anyone who wishes to make comments, to add them.......

ooc

 

[James E Gaydos]

The Gallery

Personally I don't like to rate someones photos, the reason being, I do not consider myself to be a good photographer.
I do what I can with the equipment that I have.
There have been some, IMHO, great turned works, but the photos were poor.
And dare I say poor turnings, with great photos. Please let no one be offended
I think I posted a few of them myself 😀
Jim

 

[Odie]

Personally I don't like to rate someones photos, the reason being, I do not consider myself to be a good photographer.
I do what I can with the equipment that I have.
There have been some, IMHO, great turned works, but the photos were poor.
And dare I say poor turnings, with great photos. Please let no one be offended
I think I posted a few of them myself 😀
Jim

This is a good point, Jim......

I'm one of those with very average photography skills....

Would you feel more comfortable giving an honest rating about form, materials, finish, style, creativity, etc., if you can see clearly enough to make a judgement about these things, and how well they ring your bell on a scale of 1-10? For some of these things, perfect photography isn't necessary to make some abbreviated evaluation. The option to rate it anonymously is there, so it seems like there's nothing to prevent you from being honest about your thoughts.......Also, the comment section is there to use, as well. The turner whose work is being displayed, should have the option to read, and delete, so that should make you feel very open about giving an honest opinion.

I believe the reason we have a rating system, is to give the turner some idea how other turners honestly rate them......especially turners whom they personally have respect and admiration for.

For some photos, maybe the poster would rather not have comments, or ratings, or both...... the ability for him to prevent rating and comments might be possible to do, too.

The idea is to communicate freely, without the comments, ratings, or personal identification being a limiting factor for honest input......for either the turner, or those giving input to other's works.......

ooc

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Maybe it would be best to make all ratings anonymous?

Odie, how about ratings and comments, if i received a 5 rating, i would like to know why, it does help to know what other turners think, there is a large varity of styles

 

[David Wilkins]

I liked when the gallery had the random images on the side, it brought up previously posted work that you couldn't easily find now.
I have discovered comments on my work, it would be nice to get a notification of comment or rating. I don't post much work anywhere because I don't find I get any critique other than the standard, sadly that applies for aaw and wow. I did get some pointers on photography, but I'm a turner, not a photographer. I have in the past critiqued, but even those asking for it don't always take it well.

I do like the idea of enhancing what is here and an enormously underutilized resource.

 

[Wayne Spence]

Gallery

As Charley has said, give some reason why your rating is where it is, whether a 1 or 10. It may be more difficult to explain a 10 than some lesser value. The second point is that the exhibitor can just ask for no comments and I would hope the observer would comply. No change needed in the rules. The quality of the photograph is one difficult to deal with and all I can say is deal with it as a separate issue. John Lucas and others have tried to steer us along a path to better quality photography but as long as this is not a formal jury try to not be too harsh.

In asking for comments you are putting yourself out on a limb and as long as the comments are not sarcastic or meanspirited you must be accepting of them but retain your sense of aesthetic. If all the judges (observers) think a piece is not balanced for example, but you do, that should be a learning point . You can continue making pieces in the same manner but be aware of the consequences.

 

[john lucas]

I have never used the rating and never will. I don't see a need. I comment on the work if I feel like I should.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Odie, you have made some very good points and I think that they are worth serious consideration.

Many of your points are implemented to at least some degree in a photography forum that I participate in. There is, however, one really big difference between these two forums: in one case, we see the finished product directly (a two dimensional photo) while in the other case, it is a photo of the finished three dimensional turning. Going from 3-D to 2-D means something has to give and it is difficult, if not impossible, to take a photo that does full justice to a turning. Obviously a better photo always helps which means that the photo itself weighs heavily in the way that others perceive a turning.

The issue of critique is not limited to online forums. Some of the members in my woodturning club like to bring turnings to the meetings for others to see, but do not want to be subjected to a formal critique of their work. Because of that, we have two display tables set up -- critique and non-critique.

I also find the star ratings a bit nebulous. It is like my doctor asking me how I would rate my pain on an ambiguous scale of 1 to 10. I like the idea of just saying it in words that John Lucas uses.

 

[Jason Silva]

The issue of critique is not limited to online forums. Some of the members in my woodturning club like to bring turnings to the meetings for others to see, but do not want to be subjected to a formal critique of their work. Because of that, we have two display tables set up -- critique and non-critique.

I love the idea of having a critique table and a non-critique table. Ive learned more about my turnings from good, honest critiques. We will grow slowly as turners if everyone of our pieces gets a 10 and a round of applause. We may not always like what others have to say about our work, but it will help us in the long run.

 

[KurtB]

Odie, this a an excellent topic, and one worthy of an extensive discussion. I would like to add my own 'unofficial' comments.

As a moderator, and with the responsibility for choosing the Turning of the Week, these are the criteria I use for each photo:
Is the object centered in the photo?
Is the object straight along the vertical and horizontal axes?
Does the object have crisp detail along the edges?
Is the lighting even across the piece, with little if any hot spots?
Is the view showing the inside and outside, so that the depth
of the object can be seen?
Is the photo taken close enough that the detail is visible?
Is the object in focus from the front to the back (depth of field)?
In my opinion, only those photos that are a 9 or a 10 should be posted to the home page as Turnings of the Week. That is why I use most of the above criteria. There have been excellent turnings posted, that did not have a good photo, and did not qualify (IMHO) for the home page.

Having said that, we need to recognize that this is not a forum for photo skills, it is a forum for woodturning. The reality is, that unless the photo is at least good, you may have a difficult time demonstrating the true excellence of the piece itself to others via this electronic medium. Therefore, it is in all of our best interest to take the best photo we can; I believe that is the motivation behind what John Lucas has been trying to do with his post in the How To forum. Jump in here anytime, John...

In the meantime, let's use the general notion that if someone wants a critique they should ask for it; with the understanding that they may not always like what they hear. If you don't want to take the risk, don't ask for a critique. Critiques should always include constructive criticism on what might make a piece better, recognizing that few of us are in a position to suggest absolutes. Remember, everyone's comments are just an opinion, and any turning you do is for your own enjoyment, and is therefore OK all by itself!

I hope this adds to this discussion. Please feel free to comment.

 

[James E Gaydos]

Ratings

I going to stick my neck out with this one.
How about a voluntary panel of judges, say 5 to 7 that could be on a revolving schedule of say every 4 months. These would have to be qualified pro turners, and would give a professional opinion of the presented work.

Not only would this give a new comer an honest opinion about their work, it would also get a few pro turners that are AAW members to get involved in this forum. I believe it would also help the aspiring turning artist that is considering going pro.

Not every photo would need to be critiqued, but the turning artist would need to ask for a critique. This could be done on a monthly basis, and the results posted online in the forum. I believe this would be a great addition to this forum.

Jim

 

[Bill Boehme]

I love the idea of having a critique table and a non-critique table. Ive learned more about my turnings from good, honest critiques. We will grow slowly as turners if everyone of our pieces gets a 10 and a round of applause. We may not always like what others have to say about our work, but it will help us in the long run.

Whether it is woodturning or anything else, it is often painful to listen to a critique if it is anything less than glowing praise especially if we have invested our best effort into the project. Once one is able to move past his wounded ego and learn from others, he stands a much better chance of becoming a better turner.*

*I used the masculine pronoun because this is mainly a guy problem (according to the Missus).
​

 

[Joe Greiner]

A while back, I noticed some photos without enabling a rating. I don't remember who the turner was. A moderator (again I don't remember who) informed me it was possible for the turner to disable the rating system. I found the option mentioned in the FAQs for Posting Photos.

I think it's best for those who really want criticism to state it, e.g. "C&C welcome." It's hard to draw a line between encouragement and criticism. Too often elsewhere, but not much here, comments seem to degenerate into a Mutual Admiration Society (or a less polite expression). As others have said, there's not much growth in such a situation.

 

[Joel Nucifore]

I may be wrong about what I say to this and not qualified to respond.
I have been a lurker more than a poster on alot of forums.
and starting to get ready to turn again soon, but can say that this forum is not my favorite ... meaning not that much activity on it, it goes days with out a new post WHY?????? And this is the AAW the largest orginazation of them all...
As Kurt B says its not a photo club but a turning club if a turning of the week is great but a bad photo do you give the turner a chance or notification that if they take a better photo it would make the cut??????????

As far as C&C you can not learn without critisism good or bad. And what I found out from Lurking on another forum with a lot of ACTIVITY you know who's opinions count.. You know what direction you are stiving for.. if you are only looking for a PAT ON THE BACK FOR EVERYTHING this is were you go.. And I see alot of the same people on the other forums, and are more active than here...

Sorry if I am out of line just my opinion

 

[Gretch Flo]

I may be wrong about what I say to this and not qualified to respond.
I have been a lurker more than a poster on alot of forums.
and starting to get ready to turn again soon, but can say that this forum is not my favorite ... meaning not that much activity on it, it goes days with out a new post WHY?????? And this is the AAW the largest orginazation of them all...
As Kurt B says its not a photo club but a turning club if a turning of the week is great but a bad photo do you give the turner a chance or notification that if they take a better photo it would make the cut??????????

As far as C&C you can not learn without critisism good or bad. And what I found out from Lurking on another forum with a lot of ACTIVITY you know who's opinions count.. You know what direction you are stiving for.. if you are only looking for a PAT ON THE BACK FOR EVERYTHING this is were you go.. And I see alot of the same people on the other forums, and are more active than here...

Sorry if I am out of line just my opinion

Joel-there has been alot less activity since the the June firing of Ms Lacer as exec secretary (title??) and lots of bad feelings that I hope are healing. I too miss the activity. Gretch

 

[Odie]

Joel-there has been alot less activity since the the June firing of Ms Lacer as exec secretary (title??) and lots of bad feelings that I hope are healing. I too miss the activity. Gretch

Yeah, Gretch.......

I've noticed the lack of activity around here.

However, the Gallery photos seem to be fairly active with new submissions. This is a good thing, and one way for the established members of the forum, as well as new AAW members to show their works. It seems like it should be a good way to draw people into the forum. That may not be the ultimate purpose of the gallery photos, but it would be great to get a steady influx of new input to this forum.

I suppose my original comments were an attempt to generate much more comments and ratings, without anyone feeling guilty about offering, or receiving those opinions and ratings....and I still believe it would be good to allow for the turner to delete comments. That way he'd have the benefit of seeing the comments, without having them there, attached to his photos forever. After all, any critique is unlikely to yield content that is universally well thought out, or received. This is the same sort of thing that Ed Koenig must have felt when he deleted his photo, after I accidently gave a poor rating.

If there were a way to get a storm of comments and ratings on the gallery photos......I suspect there would be quite a few people who would take a strong interest in seeing and reading them.....from photos submitted by other turners, as well as their own. I know I would!

ooc

 

[Ed Koenig]

Quite frankly, I don't understand why this forum has not made it mandatory that all members MUST use there actual names and provide basic information like a legitimate address. I understand that new members must use actual names but previous members before the new rules took affect should be required too also.

That being said, when Odie gave me the lowest rating (1 out of 10), he didn't even leave a comment. I had no idea who "Odie" was at that time. And it took me quite a while to find out since his personal profile had no valuable information. I ended up starting a thread berating the person who left the rating without leaving any comment. I would even suggest that those members who don't use their actual names are afraid to own up to their behavior. I'm not picking on Odie because I know who he is now but there are many members out there who are still using their old screen names. I really don't understand the fascination with acronyms and cutsie screen names. Maybe I'm just too old fashion.

I never use the rating system and never will. I don't prevent anyone from rating my photos but appreciate a reason for their rating. Why make this a complicated issue. Leave it up to the one posting the photo. If they want a critique, they should ask for one. If they don't ask, you can do two things. Don't leave any comment or leave a comment of praise. If the users of this forum don't take the time to read the rules, and repeatedly break the rules, they should be banned.

Be well.
Ed Koenig

 

[Odie]

Quite frankly, I don't understand why this forum has not made it mandatory that all members MUST use there actual names and provide basic information like a legitimate address. I understand that new members must use actual names but previous members before the new rules took affect should be required too also.

That being said, when Odie gave me the lowest rating (1 out of 10), he didn't even leave a comment. I had no idea who "Odie" was at that time. And it took me quite a while to find out since his personal profile had no valuable information. I ended up starting a thread berating the person who left the rating without leaving any comment. I would even suggest that those members who don't use their actual names are afraid to own up to their behavior. I'm not picking on Odie because I know who he is now but there are many members out there who are still using their old screen names. I really don't understand the fascination with acronyms and cutsie screen names. Maybe I'm just too old fashion.

I never use the rating system and never will. I don't prevent anyone from rating my photos but appreciate a reason for their rating. Why make this a complicated issue. Leave it up to the one posting the photo. If they want a critique, they should ask for one. If they don't ask, you can do two things. Don't leave any comment or leave a comment of praise. If the users of this forum don't take the time to read the rules, and repeatedly break the rules, they should be banned.

Be well.
Ed Koenig

Howdy Ed.......

I was going by memory, and may not have gotten the details perfect, but the focal point of my comments here in this thread, are well represented by you at a previous time. (see below)

As I was pointing out in this thread, your reaction to the rating system is a good indicator of how some will respond to it.....and comments that are less than a pat on the back for the "good ol' boys" may not be well received, and actually become a hinderance to participation. This is an excellent eample of why some kind of editing capabilities by those who submit photos might be a good thing, and encourage even more participation from both participants.

ooc

A few days ago I went to my AAW gallery to see if any comments had been left about a new piece I posted. I noticed someone had left what I thought was a comment on an old piece in my gallery. When I opened the old photo, I was horrified. Someone rated this plain simple bowl with a "1" but did not say why. What kind of mean person does such a thing? I could not imagine why anyone would be so cruel. The least he could have done was say why. I was so embarrassed I immediately deleted the photo which now I'm sorry I did.

 

[Odie]

It ocurred to me there are those who might like to see the entire thread, in context. Ed's post is on page 4, and my reply is on page 5

ooc

click:
http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=4572&page=4



.

 

[Joel Nucifore]

ED I will tell you are one of the turners on this forum i look foward to see what comes next.. So i cannot understand why you would pull your post because of one bad rating.
and understand it was a mistake by ODIE

But I think as I said its not a photo club and if a turning is of quality to be posted they should have a chance

I just wish with all the knowlage on this forum and being the AAW site there would be 30 to 70 posts a day as one other forum that everybody seems able to help each other..

I think what brought me out of lurking is the fact that one of the major posts this week was OFF TOPIC " ABOUT AN E READER"
i WANT WOOD GLOATS ----TOOL GLOATS AND ALL THE BELLS THAT GO WITH WOODTURNING.......

 

[Jake Debski]

Simple rule of thumb

If a turning elicits a strong reaction(as fine craftsmanship/ art is supposed to) and the photo shows the turning well, it rates an excellent. Otherwise I do not rate photos, simply not qualified to offer a critique.

I see no harm in offering a pat on the back to a turner as encouragement to keep posting because I know over time the turner show me improvement and growth that I can learn from.

This forum is all about improvement and learning from others.

 

[Ed Koenig]

ED I will tell you are one of the turners on this forum i look foward to see what comes next.. So i cannot understand why you would pull your post because of one bad rating.
and understand it was a mistake by ODIE

I didn't pull my photo because of the rating. It was because of the lack of any explanation. I felt I was being personally attacked. Secondly I did not know it was a mistake by Odie at that time. I over reacted. Please read EVERYTHING before you jump to conclusions.

Be well.
Ed

 

[Bill Boehme]

... if a turning of the week is great but a bad photo do you give the turner a chance or notification that if they take a better photo it would make the cut?.....

I'll take a WAG at answering this question. I think that what Kurt means is that a really bad photo does not allow the viewer to even be able to make a guess at whether a turning is good. One of the most important factors in conveying a visual message is composition. Good composition is much more important than technical factors such as focus and white balance. Besides that, good composition for woodturnings is something that anybody can do and does not require being a professional photographer. While I rate composition as the most important photography factor to provide the viewer a clear idea what the turning looks like, there still is no excuse for a blurry image (besides that, blurry and clear just do not seem to go together very well). The only time that blurry is OK is when shooting a flying saucer or a Bigfoot. Finally, white balance is nice, but I would place it in a distant third place.

I have seen more than a few photos of bowls where the camera was shooting nearly straight down from above the turning. The result is that one only sees a wooden disk and has no way to assess the object's shape. John Lucas has posted a lot of helpful information on photographing turnings including simple guidelines for good image composition.

Our volunteer moderators already have full plates. I, personally, would think long and hard before asking them to do more than they already do.

 

[Robert Manning]

Woodturning is a visual art

Joel, woodturning is a visual art. If you're looking to have one of your pieces chosen for Photo of the Day, then I would pay close attention to what Kurt mentioned in post #10.

Ask yourself the following questions: If you were the moderator, would you give a second chance for someone to make a better photo of their work? How does the moderator know you are capable of better photography? What if he asks, and you cannot deliver? This puts the moderator and you in an awkward position. Why wouldn't he just pick a photo that meets the criteria? And what is the excuse for uploading a bad photo of a great turning?

It's worthwhile to improve your photography technique and John Lucas has offered to help any woodturner with this endeavor

.

 

[Joel Nucifore]

Bill, I agree with what you are saying and can admit that maybe when I read it yesterday, I was thinking in another direction. and the way you put it makes a good point.. For the record love your pc's also.........

Robert do understand your point also, and have read John's posts on taken pics and printed and have them on file. But understand that.I took it as a great pc was turned but the pic was just shot at maybe the wrong angle or bad background. This I would say would be worth a second chance or a comment from the moderator or someone to re-shoot it and try again. And blurry is somthing else the artist should post pics of a better quality than blurry for us to see take pride in your turnings..
This is what I mean, maybe just that little bit will go a long way in supporting new turners or even old or making this forum more helpful and friendly. AGAIN

And so the VORTEX SPINS and now I must add a good camera to the list and a couple of classes at the local college. which is Ok since I am a single father. The only problem is I could be there father( feeling old right now thanks guys LOL )

Again no disrespect to anyone have a great day..................

 

[Odie]

While checking out the newest photos in the Gallery section, I see that the turning by Michelle Rich titled "I did i my way" does not allow for rating. I also find that by clicking on the messages tab for my own Gallery, that it appears that each individual comment for my bowls can be individually deleted. I'm not sure if these options were always in existance, or they have been added recently. This seems to address some of the concerns I expressed in this thread......and, if everyone is aware of, and uses these things, it should allow us all to comment/rate honestly and freely, knowing the recipient has the ability to delete comments, and deny ratings.

I am beginning to do a few ratings, as I see others have as well, that are a more true reflection of how a turning hits me on the 1-10 scale. So far, I don't think I've given a rating of less than 7, but I doubt that anyone, ever, will get a rating of less than 5. Those who show us their works here, will probably never show us something that is of that poor of quality, and design.

Hope these things tend to make the Gallery more active. I know I enjoy seeing these works, because the creativity I see there serves to inspire my own efforts........

Thanks for everyone who expressed opinions in this thread......

ooc

 

[robert davis]

I have never used the rating and never will. I don't see a need. I comment on the work if I feel like I should.

i agree, john..i think the rating option should be eliminated..

 

[Bill Boehme]

While checking out the newest photos in the Gallery section, I see that the turning by Michelle Rich titled "I did i my way" does not allow for rating. I also find that by clicking on the messages tab for my own Gallery, that it appears that each individual comment for my bowls can be individually deleted. I'm not sure if these options were always in existance, or they have been added recently. This seems to address some of the concerns I expressed in this thread......and, if everyone is aware of, and uses these things, it should allow us all to comment/rate honestly and freely, knowing the recipient has the ability to delete comments, and deny ratings.

I am beginning to do a few ratings, as I see others have as well, that are a more true reflection of how a turning hits me on the 1-10 scale. So far, I don't think I've given a rating of less than 7, but I doubt that anyone, ever, will get a rating of less than 5. Those who show us their works here, will probably never show us something that is of that poor of quality, and design.

Hope these things tend to make the Gallery more active. I know I enjoy seeing these works, because the creativity I see there serves to inspire my own efforts........

Thanks for everyone who expressed opinions in this thread......

ooc

Rating and critiquing are not easy things to do considering that we are just seeing a picture. We were all beginners at one time and know the importance of encouragement and that even a simple turning with tear-out and sanding lines was a great accomplishment back then. At that stage, a well meaning, but harsh evaluation can be devastating to one's desire to learn or willingness to show his work to other turners.

Those who participate in the AAW forums all seem to be courteous and considerate people which is good, but it means that while being honest, people are reluctant to make an unfavorable comment about a turning that might cause offense.

That is not the case on the photography forum in which I participate. There is a critique sub-forum there and several years ago, it was mostly qualified professionals who critiqued the artistic merit of submitted photographs, but it has since been overrun by kids and degenerated into silly nonsense -- both in terms of the submitted images and the comments from the participants. Therefore, I no longer participate in that sub-forum. I do not expect that will happen here, but just saying that online critiques need to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Odie]

Rating and critiquing are not easy things to do considering that we are just seeing a picture. We were all beginners at one time and know the importance of encouragement and that even a simple turning with tear-out and sanding lines was a great accomplishment back then. At that stage, a well meaning, but harsh evaluation can be devastating to one's desire to learn or willingness to show his work to other turners.

Those who participate in the AAW forums all seem to be courteous and considerate people which is good, but it means that while being honest, people are reluctant to make an unfavorable comment about a turning that might cause offense.

Hi Bill......

Points well taken......

I'd like to see critiques being given and received, but have some reservation about how it would pan out. The fact that ratings seem to be an option for those who post photos, and individual comments can be deleted, ought to encourage participation........even from those who feel reluctant to post photos of their work.

I've been turning long enough to have a personal sense of direction, know the path I've taken, and what my goals are. I'm very comfortable in my attitudes and thoughts about art, and the lathe. Nobody is as critical of my work as I am with myself, and any reviews that I receive are not taken personally. If I disagree, or feel the comment isn't well conceived, I'd likely delete the comment.......but, if I agree, or have faith in the source, the comment will stay.

To be sure, I understand that my opinions aren't necessarily the same as everyone else's.......so, I'm always interested in hearing points of view that differ from my own.

ooc