How good is your "tool finish".....?

[Odie]

I just posted this photo in the "tips and tricks" forum, and just noticed something that I'd like to comment on for you newbies.......

If you'll observe the wood close to the tool rest, you'll see the silver color of the tool rest being reflected by the wood. This is a "tool finish", and prior to any sanding. When you get to the point when you're seeing reflected light prior to sanding, you're definitely making sharp tools and tool control work for you. Look for it.......

This reflection, while may not be present in all cases, is a visual indicator of the progress you're making.

This bowl will still have some detail grooves cut into the surface, and of course, sanded. Sanding on this one will probably start no less than 180, and likely 220. It all depends on what kind of tool marks are left, and I do see a couple faint ones at the top of the bowl. I have started with 320 in the past, but this is not common.

ooc

 

[nicktodd]

It is also an indication of wood that has a medium/higher oil content.......

 

[Greg Keddy]

It is also an indication of wood that has a medium/higher oil content.......

I've seen something similar in maple and cherry, neither of which are oily at all.

 

[robo hippy]

A bevel rubbing cut will leave a burnished surface. A shear scrape will not. The burnished surface will be more 'reflective'. For some reason, when I finish turn green wood, I need a coarser grit to start with than I do when I turn dry wood. Shrinkage seems to magnify the tool finish irregularities. Also heard Jimmy Clewes mention that a burnished surface makes it more difficult for a finish to penetrate.

robo hippy

 

[MichaelMouse]

Burnishing closes the pores a little to a lot, which means you want to lower the viscosity of your oil by thinning or warming. I do both on a burnished surface. If you use shellac or a water-based finish, most of your burnish will raise up enough to dull the surface.

Another reason you need to start a bit coarser on wet wood is to knock the harder latewood down to the level of the contracting earlywood.

 

[Odie]

It's interesting to see those who are second guessing that the reflective quality of this example is due to burnishing from bevel rubbing.....it isn't!

I will agree that burnishing does produce a reflective quality to the surface, and nearly every bowl I produce does have some burnishing from bevel rubbing with the more primary cuts. However, this example is taken to the next step, and if any burnishing was present, it's been subsequently removed, leaving a further refined surface free of the effects of burnishing.

I always remove any burnishing completely, because it tends to bend and compress the wood fibers at the very surface. If left, it's not conducive to a quality finish, because the finish will expand and raise the compressed and bent fibers. The only solution to burnishing left to the sanding stage.....is to sand more than is absolutely necessary. This is something I'm unwilling to do, because the more you sand, the more "out of round" the bowl gets. The more out of round it gets, the less distinction, or quality appearance your details will have.

This reminds me of something Ellsworth once said about how many people are using his gouge grinds improperly. The problem was that the angle of presentation was way too low, and it needed to be brought up very high to work properly. I thought about this enough to inspire some experimenting on my part.......not with the "Ellsworth grind", but a grind of my own design. It's basically a standard grind (which it seems few turners are using anymore), but with a way of honing that is of my own. I discovered that Ellsworth was right, and I added my own "twist" to the concept.

I cannot express strongly enough how a smooth body movement, and a solid hold plays a major part in the overall success of this cut.......also, I do much of it left handed. (I'm right handed)

Of course, this is not to leave sharp tools out of the equation.......

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

Hippy says that a rubbing bevel can burnish a surface, and also might slow the uptake of oil. That's as close as it gets to presuming the glow in your picture is from riding the steel - if you read the posts. You confirm what he suggested and I supported - compressed fibers don't absorb finish in the same way as uncompressed.

Surprised you have never noted that cut surfaces reflect light much better than scraped or sanded. That's because they don't have that nearly invisible fuzz that results from tearing, and scatters the light rather than returning it at a constant angle. Can be just a local condition as Hippy notes, where the reflection actually accentuates tool marks. Your photo shows them. This shows them in a broader scale on wet cherry. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Fast-Grower.jpg

This on dry spalted birch suggests that cross cut end grain shines better than face. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/InsideTrim.jpg

Outside is even easier, as this photo demonstrating a hogging cut similar to the wet cherry demonstrates. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Frame-From-MVI_1017.jpg

Not sure what "too low" an angle of presentation means. If you mean too low a pitch angle, it's about half right. Pitch angles up in the scrape range, as Hippy says, leave mutilated fibers, pitch angles in the mid range are friendlier to mixed grain directions. The low pitch, small sharpness angle of the hand plane, if we could get it on a bowl, would be ideal. The upper two faces of beech demonstrate it pretty well. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Beech-Views.jpg End grain cut with the same plane on the lower left is certainly acceptable, but the light's going into the grain more than it's shining back at the camera.

Why I like to keep sharpness angles more acute and pitch angles low. Better compromise, in my opinion. Doesn't drag the bevel and burnish, either. when I want burnish I'll reach for the shavings, or that polished bone burnisher that the old boys used in the days before good sandpaper. No problem absorbing finish, because most of their stuff was sold bare.

 

[Odie]

MM......

None of your photos appear to be finishing cuts.....or, if they are, you will have to do some aggressive sanding to refine the surface.

As always, the only thing that counts, is results.

Link to your AAW gallery:

http://www.aawforum.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1022&sl=m

Once again, it still doesn't look like you've uploaded any photos to your gallery since 2007. How come? It would be nice to apply your words to the end results you are currently getting. I'm interested in seeing what level of refinement you are getting with intersecting edges and details as of late......This would be an indicator of how well your tool finish was executed to begin with.

To date, I haven't seen anything Robohippy has ever done. I'd like to see some, but the last time I asked, he told us his web page was under construction......that was a couple years ago.

ooc

 

[MichaelMouse]

None are finishing cuts. Those are better, because they're made at lower pitch. The great thing about proper presentations that it makes any cut almost effortless - and shiny. Most already knew this.

Understanding, rather than attitude, is a great thing. For instance, understanding reflectivity explains why oil on the surface "pops" the figure of the wood - initially, when it's softening the edges of the torn fiber - then fades as the oil is (re)absorbed, allowing the scatter to return. One of the other answers given to your non-question. Understanding this phenomenon explains why a satin finish obscures small figure by scattering light from within with additives. When you understand the principles, if your finish appears glossy rather than satin, you know you didn't stir it vigorously enough to disperse the additive.

Though I suspect you stir, or try to stir most things up quite vigorously.

 

[Odie]

One can only guess why questions remain unanswered.......

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

I saw a folding screen type room divider in Fine Woodworking some years back. It was made of stacked and laminated pieces of cherry. The pieces were chosen and glued together by their grain orientation, which also contributed to how the light reflects or refracts off the different grains. When viewed from a distance, there were wave patterns running through the whole thing. Really interesting. Kind of like a bookmatched Myrtle table I made years ago. Viewed from one side. the table was divided into dark and light quadrants. Viewed from the other side, the quadrants were reversed. Viewed from above, the table was pretty much one color.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

I just posted this photo in the "tips and tricks" forum, and just noticed something that I'd like to comment on for you newbies.......

If you'll observe the wood close to the tool rest, you'll see the silver color of the tool rest being reflected by the wood. This is a "tool finish", and prior to any sanding. When you get to the point when you're seeing reflected light prior to sanding, you're definitely making sharp tools and tool control work for you. Look for it.......
.......
ooc

Odie,
Nice surface!
There are a couple of ways to reach the skill level needed to get a smooth surface and flowing curves.
1. Months and perhaps years of trial and error.
2. An unusual ability to pick up a tool an just use it the way you observed In a video or demo or read in a book.
3. three days to a week in a quality class with a good teacher. ( a week at arrowmont, Campbell etc. or a weekend with Bosch, Ellsworth, etc)
4. Mentoring with a skilled club member.

Al

 

[Odie]

Odie,
Nice surface!
There are a couple of ways to reach the skill level needed to get a smooth surface and flowing curves.
1. Months and perhaps years of trial and error.
2. An unusual ability to pick up a tool an just use it the way you observed In a video or demo or read in a book.
3. three days to a week in a quality class with a good teacher. ( a week at arrowmont, Campbell etc. or a weekend with Bosch, Ellsworth, etc)
4. Mentoring with a skilled club member.

Al

Hello Al......

Thanks......

I'm the first category, but my journey was definitely not months, but years of trial and error! To date, I haven't had a minute of one-on-one instruction, ever......not that I'm looking to have any at this point, but I can remember the terrible struggle it was 31 years ago. I started out with several books, some cheapie tools, and a Shopsmith. Heck, I didn't even have a grinder......did sharpening on an old Sears Craftsman 4x36 belt sander, and a stone intended for knife sharpening.

I didn't see a video for ten years, or so. All helps, but I think you are exactly right about the extra value in having some one-on-one instruction. For the new turner, the best advice you can get about watching turning videos, is to buy professionally produced videos. Yes, of course, there are a lot of free videos on YouTube, and private web sites.......some good, some not so good, and some are just downright dangerous and/or poor information.

Books are good, too.......but, books leave a lot of room for confusion. If books were all there were, then there would be no choice. Videos are better, because you can see it being done. I can imagine that an actual person there showing you how to do it, and to guide you trough it, would be the best overall option for speedy acquisition of knowledge.

Then......there is another way to look at the whole thing. Honestly, I would not trade my personal path to learning the ropes, even with all the mistakes I made, if I could start over again. There is a real sense of individuality, and freedom when learning by the "trial and error" method.....even with all the frustrations. The added benefit to this is you won't be a "herd" turner, who does things like everyone else does. Because of this, you will have made a lot of choices that nobody but you will make......adding to individuality. The drawback to this, is you could easily get killed! Ha!

One big mistake I believe a lot of turners make, is the self-limiting sense of feeling they have "arrived". This attitude is something I have an acute awareness of, and it is recognized as a detriment to self-improvement. Watch out for this, because if you let this attitude consume you, your journey to excellence will plateau! If you continually see your improvements as just one more "stepping stone" in your path, who knows where you will be at some future time? If you plateau, you will be right where you are right now, a year from now.

The experience I've had on these AAW forums, has been an immense help to me......because, my course has been altered by other turners many times, right here. This doesn't mean I will take every bit of advice being offered. Most times, I don't.......but, sometimes, I do. Those times add to knowledge that makes me a better turner. :cool2:

ooc

 

[Bill Boehme]

One can only guess why questions remain unanswered.......

ooc

One can only guess why some questions are asked.

 

[Odie]

One can only guess why some questions are asked.

It should be obvious to those who don't make an effort to ignore the reasons.



ooc

 

[Sergio Villa]

A bevel rubbing cut will leave a burnished surface. A shear scrape will not. The burnished surface will be more 'reflective'. For some reason, when I finish turn green wood, I need a coarser grit to start with than I do when I turn dry wood. Shrinkage seems to magnify the tool finish irregularities. Also heard Jimmy Clewes mention that a burnished surface makes it more difficult for a finish to penetrate.

robo hippy

Burnishing is obtained by friction. It pushes the fibers closing the pores and making the wood denser and shiner. Obviously closing the pores and making the wood denser makes sanding more difficult and the penetration of the finish uneven.