horse chestnut for utilitarian ware?

[squirrel]

Does someone knows if officially Horse Chestnut is allowded to use for platters and treens for food - officially I mean?
I suppose there are only rules for restaurants and not for private users.
For restaurants the rules are very severe: plane and beech, that is all as far as I know.

I am worried about the guys who are selling walnut treens for food: what if somebody buys it who is allergic to walnut or walnut oil? Does this not give problems for the maker?

I also met a guy who copied some of my stuff but he made it in oak. Oak for food!! And not treated at all,!! But oak is not a dense wood and what if the plate to cut vegetables or fish on is not cleaned properly ... I imagine the smell of rotten fish coming out of the oak ... what do you think?

 

[Nate Hawkes]

First, I think there's a little translation issue perhaps. Oak is a dense wood, but it is fairly open-grained. Meaning, it weighs quite a big per unit of volume. It does, however, have open pores. Oak is a fine wood for salad bowls, but you're right about a cutting board. I would not use oak either. Personally, I wouldn't use any cutting board for both meat and vegetables--I'm fairly certain most commercial kitchens have separate work stations for each. I haven't worked with Horse Chestnut so I can't comment on its properties at all.



In regard to walnut wood, I would think only wet food contact might cause an issue, but I am no expert. I will however, tell you that I am EXTREMELY sensitive to fresh North American Black Walnut (juglans nigra) shavings, to the point of breaking out in an extremely itchy rash, very similar to poison ivy. I can, however, handle it without problem when it is dry. I also eat and enjoy walnut fruit (the nuts) without any problem. In my understanding, there is no juglone (the toxic substance in black walnut trees) in the nut itself, but there IS some in the nut husk, which one removes before roasting and shelling the walnuts. I hope this helps you out.

Side note--I had no idea there were any regulations about wood that could be used for food service in Europe. To my knowledge we don't have such regulations here.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but there is more than one kind of oak in the US. White oaks, at least all of the varieties that I know of such as Blackjack Oak, Post (aka Cross) Oak, and Burr Oak are not ring porous like the red oaks. I also believe that Coastal Live Oak is not ring porous -- at least it is not within the transition from root to trunk. Post Oak is very plentiful in Texas and I use it for a number of things like cutting boards. It has been used for a very long time here for wooden kitchen utensils. In days gone bye, it was split and used for fence posts around pasture land. Some of these posts that are over a century old are still standing and sturdy although the original barbed wire is mostly rusted away. Some of them have several generations of barbed wire strung on them. Red oad would be rotted away in one or two years.

AFAIK, we do not have any "officially sanctioned woods" for kitchen use although there are obviously some woods that should not be used for various reasons. Our finest Tennessee and Kentucky whiskeys are aged in white Oak barrels. As I mentioned, not being ring porous, the contents won't wick out. The same can't be said for red oak.

BTW, in Europe (at least France and Italy) use white oak barrels for the secondary fermentation aging of their wines.

I do agree that red oak is not a good choice for most unfinished kitchen utensils. I certainly would not cut up fish or poultry on a wooden board even if I immediately washed it. I don't care how slim the odds of getting sick would be -- it is greater than zero.

Some folks in the northern climates of the New World cook salmon on a cedar plank. Maybe they also do it in Northern Europe also, but I don't know what happens to the plank afterwords -- perhaps firewood?

 

[Nate Hawkes]

I think what is more important here is the porous flat grain structure--whether or not a bowl will hold water isn't the issue but rather whether a cutting board will retain food particles in the open grain.

I'm fairly certain that French (or Belgian) oak is a white oak variety. I know there is no native red oak in the UK.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Nate have you ever seen a piece of white oak? It bears only slight resemblance to red oak. When a flat piece of wood is cut, there will be some end grain pattern showing up on on the face. If it is red oak the pores are huge. If it is white oak, you won't see any pores with the naked eye. However, that is irrelevant -- porosity exists through the end grain not across it. Check Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood". Also, his book, "Identifying Wood" shows highly magnified views of red and white oak. I believe that I stated or implied that white oak was used for wine barrels. Squirrel is in Belgium.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Red oak tyloses do not close. Whites' do. That's what keeps water from dribbling out. The tannins are what count for aging, of course. Color and flavor added to wines and whiskeys. Tannins might not suit everyone's taste, so treen from oaks isn't the best of ideas for that as well as the splinter problem you can run into.

Horse-chestnut seems to be a bit iffy from an extractive as well as a porosity standpoint. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/1055.html Gretch may not root for the proper team, but she does, I'm sure root against the wearer of the "Buckeye," also known as "stinking chestnut." http://www.whiteriversource.com/aesculus.html

Walnut oil in Europe is, IIRC, solvent extracted, not cold pressed like the "healthy" stuff here. Means from a vanishingly small chance the oil has the allergens (proteins) in it to virtual nil. Wouldn't let that worry me unduly. The wood is another matter. Walnut and other woods durable in ground contact are that way because they have some pretty potent chemicals for killing bacteria and creatures. I wouldn't use it, but I've seen laburnum utensils, and that's worse. http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/atoz/laburnum_anagyroides.htm

Death, as they say in the medical business, is in the dose.

 

[Nate Hawkes]

Nate have you ever seen a piece of white oak? It bears only slight resemblance to red oak. When a flat piece of wood is cut, there will be some end grain pattern showing up on on the face. If it is red oak the pores are huge. If it is white oak, you won't see any pores with the naked eye. However, that is irrelevant -- porosity exists through the end grain not across it. Check Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood". Also, his book, "Identifying Wood" shows highly magnified views of red and white oak. I believe that I stated or implied that white oak was used for wine barrels. Squirrel is in Belgium.

Gosh Bill, I didn't realize that you took me for a complete idiot. I have and turned, cut, milled, split, and burned many pieces of white and red oak. You sounded more than a little arrogant Bill. And I emphasize that some red oak is nearly indistinguishable from white oak. All wood is variable; you can't rely solely on the pictures in a book as the holotype for all examples of the wood in the world.

I realize that Squirrel is in Belgium. The reason I made reference to the UK is that "English Oak" in the UK is a closed-tylose variety. They don't have any ring-porous oak there. French Oak is the same species, but is sometimes called brown oak, or, in Germany, Spessart oak, among many other names. I apologize to you, Squirrel, for lumping Belgium in with France, but for the shared border and language, (I know they speak dutch too), Pardonnez-moi! Je suis desole que J'ai fait une erreur.

 

[Gretch Flo]

horse chestnut

There may be different types, I am sure Rob or Michael will chime abut that' As a kid growing up we had lots of chestnuts and used to bombard other kids with the chestnuts. My parents had a house where the living room was wainscoated in wormy chestnut. After they died, I found an extra piece that had been removed to make way for a shelf or something. I made 3 "bootjacks" for 3 of my sibs as a momento of the "homestead" . As I recall, it was extremely light and porous, and I gather not strong when I was working with it (25 yrs ago??) . I was hoping they really wouldn't use them as I feared they would break. I wonder how durable a tureen or platter would be?? Gretch

 

[squirrel]

Very interesting discussion! Thank you all very much!
Am I right if I summarize the conclusions which come up in my head after reading this answers and combined with my own experience as follows:
. I make cutting boards from wood - also for meat and fish but I make them
in plane or beech. Both woods are very dense and tough The grain is much
closer than oak, even when it is white oak. I wash them daily several times
and never have a problem with it, or a smell .

. If I want to make a dinnerplate from walnut or chestnut - and as I see there are risks - don't you think it would make a huge difference if I first cook the platters after turning to get all the poison stuff out of it? I know it will warp and I know I will have to do some sanding again - that is not a problem but I think this will get the poisoning stuff out of it, no?

. I never turned horse chestnut. I know it has a beautiful color, creamy
white and not much grain, pretty close grain as well. Turns well and is a very whimsical (warping) but flexible wood. And ... contains a lot of tannin.

That is why I am interested in it. I am looking for a wood , dense and closed grain and containing tannins. Oak contains tannins but I am not so enthusiast about the open grain - even not when it is pretty close and also ... there are not so much oak trees around here and also ... I do not like to turn oak - it is such a stubborn wood, you have to be so 'polite' with it that I feel it more as a confrontation than as 'a dialogue'.

Yes, I am situated in Belgium. But I also live in the south of France for a couple of months a year and no, I am not rich - just working hard there to transform an old (cheap) industrial cowstable into a loft and studio.
I speak Dutch as well as French, I can express myself a bit in English and have some knowledge of the German language as well (we have a small part of the people talking German in Belgium). We have white oak and in France there are several kinds of oak - near Toulouse they have a very open grained oak who becomes tough as concrete , always splits and never stops warping, never - not after 10 years drying. It is an impossible oak - you see, plenty to learn ... everywhere

 

[ray hampton]

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but there is more than one kind of oak in the US. White oaks, at least all of the varieties that I know of such as Blackjack Oak, Post (aka Cross) Oak, and Burr Oak are not ring porous like the red oaks. I also believe that Coastal Live Oak is not ring porous -- at least it is not within the transition from root to trunk. Post Oak is very plentiful in Texas and I use it for a number of things like cutting boards. It has been used for a very long time here for wooden kitchen utensils. In days gone bye, it was split and used for fence posts around pasture land. Some of these posts that are over a century old are still standing and sturdy although the original barbed wire is mostly rusted away. Some of them have several generations of barbed wire strung on them. Red oad would be rotted away in one or two years.

AFAIK, we do not have any "officially sanctioned woods" for kitchen use although there are obviously some woods that should not be used for various reasons. Our finest Tennessee and Kentucky whiskeys are aged in white Oak barrels. As I mentioned, not being ring porous, the contents won't wick out. The same can't be said for red oak.

BTW, in Europe (at least France and Italy) use white oak barrels for the secondary fermentation aging of their wines.

I do agree that red oak is not a good choice for most unfinished kitchen utensils. I certainly would not cut up fish or poultry on a wooden board even if I immediately washed it. I don't care how slim the odds of getting sick would be -- it is greater than zero.

Some folks in the northern climates of the New World cook salmon on a cedar plank. Maybe they also do it in Northern Europe also, but I don't know what happens to the plank afterwords -- perhaps firewood?

I never cook in a outdoor oven, never even seen one but people close to the red sea cook bread on a wooden plank and I think that straw are use to heat the oven

 

[Bill Boehme]

I never cook in a outdoor oven, never even seen one but people close to the red sea cook bread on a wooden plank and I think that straw are use to heat the oven

Sounds like using straw keeps them busy working up an appetite when baking bread. 😀

I have seen recipes that said to soak the plank in salt water, others say plain water, and others say wine. I don't know if it matters unless the plank is part of the meal. 😛

 

[Steve Worcester]

Sounds like using straw keeps them busy working up an appetite when baking bread. 😀

I have seen recipes that said to soak the plank in salt water, others say plain water, and others say wine. I don't know if it matters unless the plank is part of the meal. 😛

In this case it is more imparting flavor on the food. Water would impart a more (whatever that wood is) flavor , vs salt water is wood flavor +briney flavor vs wood and wine would give the smokey wood and white being sweeter and red being more oakey. Which that sound yummy, but might be a waste of good wine.
(Rhetorical) how did we get from using this wood to goofing food on planks, I know how.

 

[Bill Boehme]

But, can't you drink the wine after soaking the plank? 😀

Actually, discussing this is important. If we are making tools for the kitchen, we ought to stay on top of the latest culinary trends. 😉

I can envision critiques at a wine tasting coming up with new comments such as, "this wine has a cedar blanket chest nose".

 

[Don O. Jr.]

In trying to get back to the original topic, I think I would be very hesitant to use true Horse Chestnut in anything that would be involved with food. In reading the link that MM gave us, the plant seems quite toxic and I don't know if cooking or boiling it would do anything to alter that fact. Is it worth the risk to find out ? Not to me.

In this country we are very fortunate to have many native trees which are totally appropriate for use in food utensils. Examples are Cherry, Maple, Birch, Beech, Sycamore. Any diffuse-porous wood that is known to be non toxic should suffice unless the laws state otherwise.

White Oak (Quercus alba and its relatives) also makes good boats and ships because it has closed tyloses and is rot resistant, unlike the Red Oaks. I have turned a great deal of White Oak while working on the Onrust-a replica of a 17th century Dutch ship built in NY harbor in 1614. www.theonrust.com

In the Pacific Northwest of the US, cedar is the plank of choice for cooking Salmon IIRC.

Interesting thread even if it did bounce around topics a bit.

 

[ray hampton]

In trying to get back to the original topic, I think I would be very hesitant to use true Horse Chestnut in anything that would be involved with food. In reading the link that MM gave us, the plant seems quite toxic and I don't know if cooking or boiling it would do anything to alter that fact. Is it worth the risk to find out ? Not to me.

In this country we are very fortunate to have many native trees which are totally appropriate for use in food utensils. Examples are Cherry, Maple, Birch, Beech, Sycamore. Any diffuse-porous wood that is known to be non toxic should suffice unless the laws state otherwise.

White Oak (Quercus alba and its relatives) also makes good boats and ships because it has closed tyloses and is rot resistant, unlike the Red Oaks. I have turned a great deal of White Oak while working on the Onrust-a replica of a 17th century Dutch ship built in NY harbor in 1614. www.theonrust.com

In the Pacific Northwest of the US, cedar is the plank of choice for cooking Salmon IIRC.

Interesting thread even if it did bounce around topics a bit.

some fruit trees will produce cyanide in the leaves [wild cherry]will the cyanide travel into the wood itself ?

 

[MichaelMouse]

The precursors are there. A bit of stress, like a trip through the teeth to a stomach will cause production of cyanide. Dangerous to the browsers, but the heart wood doesn't need protection and therefore lacks them.

It'll travel to your nose if you have some fresh-cut that's been warming in the sun a few days. See the Amur Cherry thread for a reference.