Hollowing systems

[Al Portante]

I've noticed two types of hollowing systems. One is the articulating elbow (Trent Bosch, Elbow, Simple Hollowing, etc.). Another is the rectangle captured near the tailstock with a horizontal slot to react the torsion (Oneway, Jamieson).

Has anyone used both designs? Could you describe the advantages/disadvantages of each? Thanks for the insight!

 

[Kevin Jenness]

The articulated systems depend for rigidity on the design of the joints and are typically less suited for deep hollowing. Bosch's system is unique in that it just drops in the banjo and has the toolrest integrated into the mechanism so it is very compact and convenient, plus the joint bearings have very little play. I think he offers up to 1 inch bars so one could probably go in the neighborhood of 18" deep. If I were buying an articulated system that is what I would choose.

The trapped systems can be scaled up using thicker and longer material for deeper hollowing. Either type requires moving the mounts around somewhat depending on the vessel shape. The farther from the work and the narrower the trap on the d handle type the more often the trap has to be moved. Both Lyle Jamieson and Trent Bosch have good videos available showing the different systems. Jamieson has a proven system with good options. For deep work Clark and Sinner are also worth looking at. There's lots of discussion in the archives.

 

[Richard Coers]

Did you do a search here? A very common question. I own both and prefer the articulated because I turn a lot of hollow forms with very small openings. The articulated gets under the flat top of my forms without constantly moving and rotating the trap on the rails of the lathe.

 

[robo hippy]

I don't do much hollowing, but have one of the old Monster articulated arm systems, and a home made D bar type. Biggest difference to me is that the articulated arm systems are good for about 6 inch depths, though they can go a bit deeper without chattering. The solid bar types, well, depending on how big the bars are, they are for going much deeper. Hmm, just had a thought about the D bar types, has anyone ever put a drill bit on one for drilling out the center of some of the deeper pieces? Might be more stable than a drill chuck and extenders....

robo hippy

 

[Phil Winch]

Actually I use three systems if I'm doing a large hollow form. The "Elbo" is great for getting round the corner on flat shouldered tops but tends to get a little shaky if you get in over 6". The captured D handle is great for bulk removal and going doing the side and can handle the eccentric position of a cutter. At 15", I switch to the BIG bar (1.25") where the cutter is always centered on the shaft so it doesn't twist. (thanks to John Tisdale for demo).

 

[Randy Anderson]

I have and use a number of different ones, depending on what I'm working on and may use all of them through stages of the piece.

Started with the handheld DWay hollower. Good for small pieces, small openings and 4-5" deep but can tire you out and need to be able to stand at the end of the lathe or it's a challenge to manipulate leaning over the bed. Don't really use it much these days but handy sometimes.

I have the Simple Hollowing articulated and a 5/8 bar for it. My go to starting tool on most all pieces to get the opening, top 2-3 inches of curve and wall thickness right. After about 6" it can be a challenge due to chatter, depending on the wood and if you have a steady rest. The 5/8 straight bar with round carbide cutter can get me to about 9-10", wood variations of course.

I have a home made captured bar setup with a 3/4 bar that will get me to about 11", usually. My experience is that after about 9" and a tool rest at the opening you need to be using at least a 3/4 bar and a sharp cutter. The last mile on a deep piece can be exhausting and frustrating with the wrong tool.

My go to for deeper and so far up to 19" is the Roly Munro 3/4 bar with a lighted tool rest and pivot pin that extends well into the piece. Still takes some work for the last mile but manageable with a steady rest.

My net two cents - decide what you intend to hollow and how much room you have. If your max goal is about 6" then just about any will get you there. If you want to go beyond that then it can be a tough decision, lots of good/decent options at reasonable price points.

 

[Lyle Jamieson]

As indicated in the responses there is a lot more to it than just the articulating arms. The starting point is safety the ending point is fun. Other points of interest. The access and efficiency of the cutter assemblies, the functions of the laser measuring, the torque arrest, how many accessories needed to complete the system, versatility to do any shape vessel, instruction included, accessibility for help, and service to name just a few. How about made in USA?

 

[john lucas]

Also dont forget the Steve Sinner captured bar system. I use a homemade Jamieson system. The one problem I have with it is storage. The articulated arms which I dont own take up a lot less room to store. In my old shop no problem. In my new shop it's a. Issue although I did find a spot.

 

[Al Portante]

Did you do a search here? A very common question. I own both and prefer the articulated because I turn a lot of hollow forms with very small openings. The articulated gets under the flat top of my forms without constantly moving and rotating the trap on the rails of the lathe.

I did, and read lots of good info. I did not see the specific comparison I'm asking about. So after a while, I just posted my question ....advantages and disadvantages of the fundamental designs. Great responses, much appreciated!

 

[Al Portante]

Also dont forget the Steve Sinner captured bar system. I use a homemade Jamieson system. The one problem I have with it is storage. The articulated arms which I dont own take up a lot less room to store. In my old shop no problem. In my new shop it's a. Issue although I did find a spot.

I hear you there. I have 3/4 of a typical 2 car garage. I'm not a pro, just a weekender. Over the years of going from a hot rod shop, to a knifemaking shop, to a woodshop allowed me the privilege of dialing in a few things. Space is always a serious trade.

 

[hockenbery]

I've noticed two types of hollowing systems. One is the articulating elbow (Trent Bosch, Elbow, Simple Hollowing, etc.). Another is the rectangle captured near the tailstock with a horizontal slot to react the torsion (Oneway, Jamieson).

Has anyone used both designs? Could you describe the advantages/disadvantages of each? Thanks for the insight!

I’ve used the Jamison since 2000. Made a plywood back rest. lyle wasn’t making back rests then.
added a laser then used boat rail fitting to Mount the laser with pipes. Replaced it with a Bosch vizualizer ( video).

hollowforms are my mainstay and I been invited to do demos lots of places. Taught a half dozen hollowing classes using the Jamison.

in 2016 I bought a Simon Hope articulated system. I’ve mostly used the Hope because It sets up for a different height lathe in about 30 seconds. So when I do a florida demo it’s a ready go when I need it I just have to slide a collar up and lock it with a level on the hollowing bar. Too heavy to fly with. the jaimison I have several traveling wooden backrests. I screw them to the base to adjust the height. Takes 5-10 minutes clamping and testing height, fine tuning height clamping, running in the screws. Lyle Has loaned me back rests quite a few times for demos.

5” H x 14” W forms are easier with the Hope. With the Jamieson I have to swing the backrest out and back to reach some spots.
note these wide forms can’t be hollowed with all the articulated systems.


10”H x 5D forms are easier with the. jaimison
But there is little difference in performance between the Jamison and the Hope. They are both great as are others.
I think my video set up is more compatible with the Hope.

I like the hope. But considering price. I‘d recommend the Jamison handle, bosch hollowing bars, make a backrest from plywood.
you can hollow anything safely, with good posture, add a video system or laser. the cutters and scrapers for the bosch tools are great too.

 

[Bill Blasic]

I have 2 articulated and 1 captured systems. I can go 18 or 19" deep with either dependent on the boring bar in use. I use articulated 95% of the time just because it is easier to set up. I have always been a proponent of the Jordan and the Kelton hollowers and dependent on which size tool and entrance hole as to depth of cut. They are scrapers though and lend themselves to vibration. But with the Hunter boring bars and the Hunter tools on the end of them because they cut there is little or no vibration. As I've stated before my Monster systems are the Buicks of hollowing systems but the Cadillac of hollowing systems is Alan Trouts Pro-Rail Hollowing System.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Depends on what you want to make and the total $’s you are willing to part with.

I bought a Jamieson system ~ 5 yrs ago. I researched systems for ~ a year beforehand. I wanted max flexibility of depth (~20”) and shape, and the smallest entry hole I could get away with for a given size form. Total $ was a big consideration. Traveling with the system was not, and storage was not a big consideration (mine stores hanging from the ceiling).

Other systems, including articulated, didnt have a large enough bar available for the desired depth (not sure Bosch had the 3/4” stabilizer with 1” bar then) and were 2 to 4 x more $’s when all the different bars sizes etc were included.

The Bosch system is very nice and capable….but requires buying sets of bars at each size to use the smallest possible hole size for a given form. If this is not a consideration, then just get the 1” bars and the cost is more reasonable. You will need 3 sets though (hss, carbide, scraper tips) to have the same flexibility as the Jamieson system (remove the swivel and mount a scraper to the 3/8” bar).

Whatever system you choose, put together a camera system for it. Its not difficult to mount a camera to the laser holder of any system, and getting a picture on a screen is not difficult. I find it far better vs a laser.

 

[Michael Nathal]

I have been a satisfied user of the Jamieson system for many years. I make both tall vases and wide "flying saucer" shapes with it. I have supplemented the original system by using the three Kelton 1/2 inch hollowing bars, and a 3/4 inch swan neck bar. I have also moved from Lyle's laser to a camera system.

I have never used an articulated system but continue to be puzzled by the common statement that they cannot hollow as deep as captured systems. To my mind hollowing depth is determined by the bar diameter and distance from the tool rest, so both captured and articulated should be roughly the same. I would love to hear more comments on this aspect.

 

[hockenbery]

have never used an articulated system but continue to be puzzled by the common statement that they cannot hollow as deep as captured systems.

I think this is applied to scalability.
going 2-3-4-6 feet deep people mostly use a scaled up version of the jaimison system.

12-14“ depths are achievable with many of the articulated systems.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

I have never used an articulated system but continue to be puzzled by the common statement that they cannot hollow as deep as captured systems. To my mind hollowing depth is determined by the bar diameter and distance from the tool rest, so both captured and articulated should be roughly the same. I would love to hear more comments on this aspect.

The articulated systems suffer from flex at the joints depending on the bearing system used, while the solid bar setups are as stiff as the material used. You can put a big bar on an articulated rig but when it is extended and the joints give a little the cutter can drop below center and catch more easily. I have used a home-made snake rig and the Hope setup, and had my hands on a Bosch. The last is by far the most rigid. That's not to say the others don't work within their limits.

 

[Al Portante]

Lots of great info here describing the two. I can picture my considerations much better, thank you all!

Given what I'm thinking of doing, and my limited experience in it, I'm leaning toward an articulated systems (cost, setup time, storage) with a 1" bar that still allows me to use smaller cutter bars. I see Bosch supplies bushings for just that.

 

[Bill Blasic]

The articulated systems suffer from flex at the joints depending on the bearing system used, while the solid bar setups are as stiff as the material used. You can put a big bar on an articulated rig but when it is extended and the joints give a little the cutter can drop below center and catch more easily. I have used a home-made snake rig and the Hope setup, and had my hands on a Bosch. The last is by far the most rigid. That's not to say the others don't work within their limits.

Neither of my articulated systems have any flex at the joints what so ever and like what Michael said the size of the bar and distance from the tool rest are the determining factors. I could use a 3" or 4" bar as long as the end is turned down to 3/4". That goes for my systems and also the Elbo which I had for many years. I also have adapters that I can go down from 3/4" to 5/16" tools. Pay attention to what you are buying as some are better than others.

 

[John Erickson]

I don’t know your experience level, but have you considered starting with (if you’re newish, that is) non-captured tools? Part of the skill is learning how to feel the wood—a clean cut, binding, catching, clogging from shavings, etc. with a non-captured tool you can feel a lot better. You also have the advantage of being able to let the tool pivot away from a catch rather than digging in. Rigidity is a big draw for captured setups, but also has some drawbacks. I’ve moved away from my captured setup and back to “old school” hollowing tools. Take it for what it’s worth. Good luck, and have fun!

 

[Al Portante]

I don’t know your experience level, but have you considered starting with (if you’re newish, that is) non-captured tools? Part of the skill is learning how to feel the wood—a clean cut, binding, catching, clogging from shavings, etc. with a non-captured tool you can feel a lot better. You also have the advantage of being able to let the tool pivot away from a catch rather than digging in. Rigidity is a big draw for captured setups, but also has some drawbacks. I’ve moved away from my captured setup and back to “old school” hollowing tools. Take it for what it’s worth. Good luck, and have fun!

Thanks John, yes, I've done several vessels about 6-8+ deep. In have one in crotch cherry that's more like 9 deep. In that, I'm disappointed. Thick near the bottom but the best I could do without sedatives while turning...which is not a good choice. So know I'm exploring another world.

Love this thread. The insight between the options is very helpful. Big thanks to all!

 

[Doug Freeman]

the best I could do without sedatives while turning

This is why I got a captive system - the constant attention required to keep from blowing up a project or injuring myself. A system makes the process much more enjoyable - its a big stress reliever.

I still use hand held for small stuff, and every hf I do I start with hand held to quickly clear out space inside, but at about 4-5” off the rest, and plenty of wall t, I get the system out.

 

[Darryn Achall]

Have had the Bosch arm for more than a year now. It works fine with about any type of bar. I have 5/8 bars with the adapter that are good up to 6" or so deep. Jamieson 3/4 bars work fine in this rig up to about 11" deep. Machined an 1-1/4 bar with 3/4 tang that fits in the Bosch arm and this easily goes to 16" (not tried deeper yet). I adapted an old webcam to the Bosch video arm and ran usb cord to a tablet. About $80 in parts and the video is fantastic. Tried a friend's captured rig and liked it. Got the Bosch because I prefer to stand at the end of the lathe and the captured arm is a side stance. The real advantage of the captured seems to be the ability to scale up to doing monster pieces over 18" deep.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Got the Bosch because I prefer to stand at the end of the lathe and the captured arm is a side stance

The articulated systems do allow one to stand behind or to the side, while most captured (maybe all?) pretty much require standing to the side and guiding the cutter. I prefer being to the side at the work opening, but its 100% operator preference how to guide the cutter.

 

[hockenbery]

Tried a friend's captured rig and liked it. Got the Bosch because I prefer to stand at the end of the lathe and the captured arm is a side stance.

that is a personal preference. I prefer standing to the side and being closer to the work. I feel like I have more control.
standing to the side made it easier to see the laser if the form curves in a lot - no longer important with video.
obviously others will be more comfortable standing behind the support mechanism. Probably a bit safer being further from the work.

 

[Darryn Achall]

that is a personal preference. I prefer standing to the side and being closer to the work. I feel like I have more control.
standing to the side made it easier to see the laser if the form curves in a lot - no longer important with video.
obviously others will be more comfortable standing behind the support mechanism. Probably a bit safer being further from the work.

yes, the side stance is important with the laser, since I cobbled together video, standing at the end is my preference

 

[Al Portante]

Have had the Bosch arm for more than a year now. It works fine with about any type of bar. I have 5/8 bars with the adapter that are good up to 6" or so deep. Jamieson 3/4 bars work fine in this rig up to about 11" deep. Machined an 1-1/4 bar with 3/4 tang that fits in the Bosch arm and this easily goes to 16" (not tried deeper yet). I adapted an old webcam to the Bosch video arm and ran usb cord to a tablet. About $80 in parts and the video is fantastic. Tried a friend's captured rig and liked it. Got the Bosch because I prefer to stand at the end of the lathe and the captured arm is a side stance. The real advantage of the captured seems to be the ability to scale up to doing monster pieces over 18" deep.

Good info here. That sounds much like how I would use a system. I need to be able to switch cutter bars easily. Also, given my space, a side turn is easier for me. I get cramped if I'm too close to my tailstock. I'm more and more leaning toward the Bosch system. Of course, I need to finish this coffee table first before I entertain a lathe project, but excited about it now!

 

[Breck Whitworth]

I used the old monster system with the captured arm and it work pretty well, I say that because there is of course a learning curve with whatever system you decide to use. I have the Trent Bosh system now and I realize it is expensive, if you include the visualizer, but man is it a wonderfully easy system to use. I can turn out 10 to 15 various hollow forms or vases which I use as canvas for my art pieces, in short order over a few days. Then I remove the system and concentrate on my bowls.

 

[Steven Forrest]

I lucked into an older Jamieson system a few years ago, and it helped me advance for sure. But I found myself actively avoiding using it - it just felt like a big deal to set up and manage. I recently unloaded the Jamieson and got a Bosch system and am much more comfortable using it now. It's a quick set up and off you go. Nothing to slip out of the capture system, and one banjo only needed. Very flexible to use, but plenty rigid. I'm not doing extreme depths. I don't have a visualizer - still doing it the old fashioned way with a laser and/or calipers of various types. The Veritas thickness calipers, Jackofsky's unit, and some classic double ended calipers get me through most configurations.

 

[Al Portante]

Yep. It's for those reasons; setup time, ease of changing and storage, that I'm inclined toward the Bosch. Still quite expensive after adding in cutter bars, etc. Excellent points, thanks.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

We are having a hollowing demo at our club next Saturday. Me and two other guys are going to demo four different systems. I have the Simple hollowing system that I will demo.

 

[Mark Mandell]

Made a captured D-bar rig out of 3/4" bar when I first got my Stubby. Was OK but had a fair amount of vibration that messed with the laser pointer's accuracy.

Then my friend, Al Crandal came up with his Kobra System. I worked with Ellis Walentine for his article on hollowing tools for Woodworker's Journal and they wound up putting my rig (and mug) in the article
Unfortunately, Al moved on, so they're no longer made. Unit is seriously smooth with very little vibration and allows me to position a full 180* to the axis. It actually kept me turning after I developed an issue with my left arm and hand that made it difficult to hold a hollowing tool securely.