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Holdfast Vacuum Chuck?

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Does anyone know anything about or has anyone used the Holdfast Vacuum Chuck System shown in the spring/summer Woodturners Catalog? The thing that interests me is that the vacuum generator operates off a standard shop compressor which obviously saves having to purchase a vacuum pump. This saves money as well as not having to deal with another piece of equipment. The total cost of the system is $250. It is shown under new products on page A2 of the catalog.

Thanks for any information.

Shaf
 
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shaf said:
Does anyone know anything about or has anyone used the Holdfast Vacuum Chuck System shown in the spring/summer Woodturners Catalog? The thing that interests me is that the vacuum generator operates off a standard shop compressor which obviously saves having to purchase a vacuum pump. This saves money as well as not having to deal with another piece of equipment. The total cost of the system is $250. It is shown under new products on page A2 of the catalog.

Thanks for any information.

Shaf

Shaf,

I have not, but from the description, all it (the "generator") appears to be is a re-packaged venturi valve system put into a blow-moulded box with a vacuum guage mounted. Unit will have a max pull of 12-15" of Hg, depending on the CFM of the compressor used, and be VERY noisy in the high pitches. 15" of Hg. is fine for large stuff (I've used as little as 7-9" on a platter with an 8" bell) where the chuck being used has a lot of area, but it will be worthless for small items held on 2-3" diameter chucks because it will not generate enough atmospheric pressure to hold the item securely for cutting. Add the venturi's noise to the noise of the shop compressor plus the much higher cost in electricity of running a compressor as opposed to a conventional vacuum pump and this doesn't look like much of a deal at all. Rockler and similar outfits used to sell these things for the veneer guys to use, but they got tired of the screaming valves, and I haven't seen them listed for more than a few years except in Harbour Freight or Northern throw-aways for like $15.00.

The Chuck Adapter looks okay; mostly a cheaper version of the EZ-Vac adapter.

Just as a side note, try to avoid using quick-connect fittings in vacuum lines. They're convenient, but they restrict the flow and tend to leak because their sealing surfaces are designed for outward pressure rather than vacuum. A much better connection option is a plumber's union fitting formed with a cup and ball joint and pressure ring They give a tight seal and larger internal flow through the fitting for more actual suction power.

There are some good ideas on vacuum chucking in the How-To forum section of this site. Look'em up. :)

m

PS: For some more very good ideas on making your own drum chucks, look at the article in the Summer AAW Journal.
 
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john lucas

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I haven't owned one either but used a venturi system for a vacuum bag one time. My compressor couldn't keep the volume up. I don't have a very big compressor. I would be interested in seen the cfm needed to run this thing especially if you took a while to turn the object being turned.
 
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Venturi systems are not very popular with woodturners they require a high volume air compressor running all the time. I would suggest a surplus or used Gast vacuum pump from a surplus dealer or ebay. I like ebay because you can watch the offerings and take your time until you find a unit that will meet your budget needs.
 
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Vacuum chucking

Schaf

Go to Surpluscenter.com, they have new Gast pumps for sale that are for this sort of use. The big drawback is they are all 220 volts. If you have a larger lathe, probably already have 220 available. These are new industrial application pumps, I have had one since last summer, they work. They also have the necessary filter. Item 4-1540, $89.95 for the pump; Item 4-1565,$5.99 for the filter. These are a better deal than ebay.

Jim Sample
Pres., Siouxland Woodturners
 
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I have one of those vacuum pumps and it works great. The 220 part was not a problem since my lathe is 220 and the power source was immediately available.

I have become a true advocate of vacuum chucking. I even made one that has an expendable wood cylinder for lidded boxes. It's great to not have to try to get that jam chuck exactly right and also to never worry about cracking the lid or the box when jamming fitting it.

I had a guy recently ask me what was the first thing he should buy to get started in woodturning. I told him to go ahead and set up a vacuum chuck ;).
In all seriousness, I'm sure many will agree with me that they wish they had spent their money on a vacuum setup rather than some of the other unnecessary items they got before it.

Hope you enjoys yours as I'm rather certain you will.

Larry
 
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Hold Fast Vacuum Chuck

Well since we make it I better comment on them and dispel some myths.

The Hold Fast product line was originally conceived because we designed a unique vacuum venturi for a different application (Motor Home air conditioning controller). Our vacuum generators can develop in excess of 20 " Hg. They are very quiet and they needed to be sitting under a dash board of a Motor Home. They also only require a standard air compressor that will generate 2 cfm at 65 psi (more pressure actually decreases the vacuum). I have been surprised at how small an air compressor will work. Most air compressors that have a tank with it will work and will not be running all of the time either. We have a new metal cabinet. Yes it is basic and simple. We also have a brand new unit with a built in air regulator.

12†of Vacuum should be a minimum save holding vacuum for most projects. The actual holding power at that vacuum is surprising.
The only draw back is the volume of vacuum is limited and leakage must be minimized… so our Vacuum Adapter was developed. Most of the vacuum leakage in any system is in the Bearing. After a lot of trial and error we finally have a bearing seal that works, universally fits almost all lathes with a #2 MT.

Next is the Vacuum Head. We selected a 5†head because it provides great holding power (the larger the diameter the more holding power and can even crush fragile pieces if you are not careful) We have two seals – one for concave holding and one for convex holding. Sized in 1â€Â, 1-1/4â€Â, and 33mm will fit the most popular lathe sizes.

We also have spindle extenders that work with vacuum and standard chucks for deep bowl applications if your lathe gets in the way. We are working on several adapters also…

This is a brand new product line and we are making it classier as we go. The first ones looked the most basic because of the plastic cabinet but they all work the same with the key being our unique vacuum venturi.

OK, I am ready for the hits now! As with any new product we have had some problems – like making the spindle adapters threads too precise. We have found out that not all lathes are precisely made and have over sized spindles. Since then we have loosed up our tolerances to make that work. Also you have to use clean air – the first units only recommended an air filter – after venturi clogs we now provide an inline air filter. Our instructions made too many assumptions that it was easy to put together – who reads those anyway!

The biggest thing I would like to mention about vacuum chucking – Turn off the lather before you turn off the vacuum!!! :eek:

The Glue Guy :cool2:
 
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Myths and Questions

Since you've read this thread, you can see that I was not overly impressed with the venturi units, whether past or your company's unit shown in Louisville at Brad Packard's booth. Your silencing of the unit will certainly be an improvement, but several issues seem to persist; namely CFM and compressor use.

Originally, "vacuum" chucking started with people using shop-vacs with their very high CFM capacity and air velocity ratings to suck the pieces onto the bell and hold even porous woods. People found, however, that running those vacs with the hoses "blocked" soon overheated, then burned out, the non-bypass motors, so enter, stage right, real vacuum pumps.

Outside of the industrial and automotive areas, it seems as though the venturi systems were widely used in the veneering context because they could evacuate a perfectly sealed environment like the heavy poly bags used. Users coupled them with a reservoir tank of several gallons' capacity and ran a small compressor only intermittently to maintain a set pressure of between 10 and 15" of Hg. They were great for applying veneer to curved surfaces, and erased the need to worry about CFM issues because the bags and fittings were all very well sealed against leaks; suck & hold was the short order of the day. You state your unit will work well with a 2 CFM compressor with a 65 PSI feed. Most people don't understand that as PSI goes up, the relative CFM produced actually goes down, but a venturi is the perfect illustration of that situation, as are HVLP spray systems. However, as I understand it, your venturi, while capable of pulling an improved 20" vacuum, cannot "pull" more CFMs than the compressor is delivering, and unless it's 100% efficient, would actually be pulling less than the compressor's CFM output. But a simple vacuum rating is not enough. Again as I understand it, it's the CFM rating that is vital to a vacuum chuck's ability to deal with porous woods and imperfect seals throughout the system, even with the use of a 3-piece vacuum adaptor. Most good small vacuum pumps [Gast, Robinair, DeVilbiss, Thomas] will pull in the 5-6 CFM range which works well for woodturners because they have enough flow capacity to compensate for small leaks, and naturally porous woods or workpieces with unseen micro cracks. So, how much CFM does your system generate with a small shop 2-4 CFM compressor like most here would have, and how does it compensate for "leaky" wood?

Next issue is the cost and noise of running an air compressor to operate a venturi as opposed to running a regular vacuum pump system. The smaller vacuum pumps (actually a compressor using the intake) in use by turners are usually in the 1/3 to 3/4hp motor range, and are rather quiet, especially when run with out-flow filters or mufflers. There have been a number of threads here and elsewhere regarding people seeking to soundproof their air compressors because of the very high noise levels they produce. Seems nobody wants to spend $20K for a silent compressor. People also don't consider the cost to run those 1.5 to 2 hp motors which is much more than running a 1/2hp vacuum pump. Thus far, I've not seen anything about your venturi generator that addresses the compressor noise and net cost of operation when compared with a vacuum pump set up, so other than the initial cost and 1 cu. ft. of space needed for the pump, what advantage does your system have over a vacuum pump set up?

Now, if I've stated something you feel is a myth, feel free to correct me. Accurate and complete information is the only type that has any value, and I certainly don't want to mislead anyone, let alone perpetuate myths.
 
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You are right

You are right; probably the best way to have a vacuum chuck system is to have a big vacuum pump – the bigger the better – with a vacuum controller with a vacuum gauge to release the excess vacuum so that projects will not get crushed and to take the part on or off. This will compensate for any vacuum leaks.

We have tried to provide a low cost, turn key system that can be plugged into a standard air compressor. Many people do not want to mess around with making chuck heads, vacuum adapters, vacuum pump with a controller and can be expensive.

The biggest draw back of a venturi system as I see it is the lack of vacuum volume. That is why we had to develop a vacuum adapter that does not leak through the bearings. Most of the vacuum adapters leak excessively for a venturi unit but the vacuum pump can keep up.
Will your compressor run all the time? Probably not but how much depends on the size of compressor.

As far as cost… $255.00 suggested retail for a complete system from Vacuum, vacuum adapter, to vacuum head and just plugging it in to an air compressor seems like a pretty good deal to me. But it does have its limitations.
 
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