Help Setting Up a Vacum Chuck on a PowerMatic 3520C?

[Aaron Harris]

Greetings-Though it has been and remains an enlightening part of my wood-turning journey to learn a variety of reverse-holding solutions for finishing bowl bottoms, platters and lidded boxes, etc., (Longworth chuck, various home-made friction drives and jamb chucks), I have an order of very nice brushed copper signature medallions with my logo coming to add a touch of class to my bowl and platter bottoms. (If you saw my chicken-scratch efforts with archival ink or pyrography, you would applaud this move lol! And don’t even start me ranting about the cheap Chinese branding iron I got from Etsy!). Anyway, for that to work, I obviously require unimpeded access to bottoms with the tail-stock out of the way to turn the recess for the medallion as a last step, which means a vacuum chuck.


That said, I have never set up anything like this before and don’t have the extensive shop and fabrication experience to know my way around all the component parts like many of you. I have perused websites including this one, and YouTube videos quite a bit, but I’m still confused and unsure how to proceed. I know many of you are old PowerMatic hands, and no doubt some of you have rigged up vacuum systems for the various 3520 models.

I would be grateful for any advice and links regarding components needed for the set-up, assuming I know next to nothing about all of this.

1. Vacuum Pump: I already have an older RobinAir Vacum Master Model 15400 vacuum pump that is rated 1/3hp and 4cfs that I took in trade for stabilizing small blanks that I haven’t gotten around to using(pic attached), as well as a California Air Tools air compressor that is rated at 3.10 CFM at 40 PSI and 2.20 CFM at 90 PSI (so possibly not enough?). I assume if I go with the RobinAir that it needs an intake filter and one for the oily exhaust coming out of the handle hole? Where do I get those? And this may be a stupid question, but does the line from the manifold assembly on the lathe connect to that intake? It generates suction when turned on.
2. Vacum chuck cup: I know I need the actual vacuum cup. I am inclined to spend a bit more for an aluminum/metal model because I hear they run truer with less vibration? If I only have the money to start with one, should I get one about 4-5 inches in diameter? The majority of my bowls and platters are probably between 7 to 13 inches in diameter.
3. Reverse Centering: I know I need an adaptor to flip the chuck around for re-centering. What is the best option for this?
4. Manifold/lathe interface: I know/am pretty sure I need a manifold kit that attaches to the hand-wheel tube with a valve and vacuum gauge.How does it attach, and can I retain the handwheel (which I like and use a lot)? I see what looks like a complete kit on https://www.frugalvacuumchuck.com/home.html. Is this what I need, and does it contain everything needed to attach on both ends?
5. What kind of line and fittings do I need between the pump and the manifold? (Maybe this is all contained in #2 if I just buy the whole kit?).

What else am I not thinking about? I’m sorry for all the questions, but I really have zero experience setting up something like this. As for how much I can spend, I definitely believe in the adage “Buy once, cry once,” though I would also love to economize where possible. I know I can expand cup sizes later if needed.

Thanks in advance for your expertise! My 1st spring craft shows are in March, and I would LOVE to have some nicely-finished bottoms with my copper medallion ready for my table with your help! Aaron

 

[Bob Slocum]

You may already be aware of this.. Robust has a complete kit for the PM.

Vacuum Systems – Robust Tools

 

[Aaron Harris]

You may already be aware of this.. Robust has a complete kit for the PM.

Vacuum Systems – Robust Tools

Thanks, Bob-I was NOT aware of this! I guess I just assumed that Robust accessories were for their lathes. I wonder if I could just call them and order what I need from that menu ala carte without the pump?

 

[Mike Selser]

Thanks, Bob-I was NOT aware of this! I guess I just assumed that Robust accessories were for their lathes. I wonder if I could just call them and order what I need from that menu ala carte without the pump?

It looks like the vacuum adaptor and vacuum hardware kit (plus whatever chuck you want) will get you in business. Any fittings and tubing needed can be picked up at your local hardware store. I would add an inline fuel filter from your auto parts store between the pump and the adaptor. As far as the outlet of the pump I just throw a shop towel over the handle to keep the oil mist from spreading around the shop.

 

[Dave Landers]

Vacuum Pump

You'll want to use your vac pump, not an air compressor. You can get a device to generate vac with a compressor, but its pretty inefficient and since you have a pump....
You can go to the auto parts store and get a fuel filter that'll fit your hose - it's going to be plenty to filter out sawdust. Get a clear one so you can see if it gets clogged.
If your vac pump spits out oil, you might want a filter on that side to control mess.

And yes, you hook up your chuck to the sucking side.

Reverse Centering: I know I need an adaptor to flip the chuck around for re-centering. What is the best option for this?

Live center. When you turn the tenon, leave the mark from the live center - use that to center the bowl on the vac chuck.
You can also get an adapter between your live center (Oneway/Powermatic/Jet style with 3/4x10 threads) and 1-1/4x8 for the chuck. I have one, but rarely use it as the live center point is easy and usually good enough.

Manifold/lathe interface / Fittings

Most folks have a thing with o-rings and bearings that shoves into the hand-wheel side of the spindle. That then relies on the spindle and vac chuck to transmit the vacuum to your bowl.

Between the pump and lathe, you'll want some pipe/tube/hose (obviously).

You'll need a pressure release valve (ball valve - with a quarter-turn handle). Not to shut off the vacuum, but to let it out - so a valve tee'd off the hose going to nowhere. So when the valve is shut the vacuum sucks on your bowl. When the valve is open, it lets air out (and releases your bowl). Feathering the valve lets you control the suckage for adjusting your bowl to center it up or whatever.

A vacuum gauge is handy. Doesn't have to be accurate, just enough that you can glance at it and know if things are good or leaking.
The valve and gauge should be mounted/positioned where you can see the gauge for assurance as your turning, and the valve can be operated conveniently when you're mounting the bowl.

---

For myself, I use the gear from Frugal Vacuum Chuck. Bob avoids the fittings in the spindle and simply passes a tube thru the spindle. I made my vacuum chucks from the bearings he sells - tube goes thru the bearings to get the vacuum in the chuck, without relying on connections to the spindle. All my vacuum chucks are just MDF (or something) and PVC fittings (PVC is easy to true up). So I have several and they[re cheap and easy to make. On the bowl end of the PVC are seals from Rubber Chucky. The thing I like is my vacuum chucks mount in my 4-jaw chucks (don't screw on the spindle) and I've turned several tenons in each (for various jaws) so I can generally just use whatever chuck is already there.

 

[Dean Center]

Dave has given you excellent recommendations. Several additional thoughts:
1. If you can get a brass thingy (?manifold) with 4 male ends, you can connect your relief valve to one, your pressure gauge to a second, your adapter/lathe to a third, and the vacuum pump to the fourth. Neat and complete.
2. You have to decide where in the set up to put your inline filter. Between adapter/lathe and manifold, or between manifold and pump. Both have pros and cons. When deciding, keep in mind that the pressure relief valve can suck in airborne debris. I improved this situation by putting a 4 ' extension tube on the valve, so the air it brings in is farther from the lathe/saw sources of airborne smuck.
3. I use an inexpensive auto fuel filter with the right size jam in connections for the size poly tubing I use (probably 3/8", but could be 1/4") Buy an extra one, because eventually the filter will collect enough debris that you will have to replace it, and have the right one on hand. Clear plastic, as Dave suggested.
4. If you're thinking of commercially made vacuum chucks, look at the Odd Not system. It does not require a separate, potentially expensive adapter, but has a means of connecting to vacuum without one. (I have not used, so this is based on promotional materials)

 

[Dave Landers]

FWIW - this is my valve/gauge assembly (from the back side). It's on the strut channel above the lathe so I can easily reach the valve and see the gauge.


It's gas pipe fittings because that's what was in the junk drawer. The vacuum from (to?) the pump is copper because it made it fit neater on the strut. The other end of the hose is clipped to the strut when not in use.

This is the pump. It's up high on the wall (near the end of the strut) so its out of the way.


And my vacuum chucks look like this.

Several tenons for various chucks. That pipe goes thru the base of the chuck and into a bearing that lets things spin.


The other end of the pipe (handwheel side of the headstock) just pushes into the hose from the valve/gauge assembly.

 

[Jim Reynolds]

I find Doc Green’s explanation of how to build a vacuum chucking setup in his book helpful.

He also has a website with many informative articles.

 

[Jim Reynolds]

If you're thinking of commercially made vacuum chucks, look at the Odd Not system. It does not require a separate, potentially expensive adapter, but has a means of connecting to vacuum without one. (I have not used, so this is based on promotional materials)

Odd Not uses the same technique Dave showed above. Tube friction fit inside a bearing.

 

[Aaron Harris]

Thanks all for the thoughtful, detailed replies! I should be able to put it together now; will update when I do.

 

[Vincent Vogel]

Here's my setup, it takes about 90 seconds to set it up ready to turn the bottom from a bowl. First picture is the pump and a shop made vacuum chuck, I got the muffler from amazon it's 3/8 npt and screwed into the handle. Second picture is how I store it ready for use, just plug the pump in to electric and plug the swivel adapter into the handwheel. Third picture shows a closeup of the fittings needed, the filter is just a fuel filter for a small engine, I got the gauge and cross from McMaster, the swivel adapter is from Robust. Hope this helps you out. It's pretty easy to make and install.

 

[Tom Gall]

@Aaron Harris A lot of good points have been made so far. Your #3 is probably unnecessary.
If you make a lot of flat rim bowls a flat/disc-type vacuum chuck would also work - easier to make than a drum-type and will always work no matter the diameter or depth of the bowl.
LEFT - PVC foam board with faceplate. Made a few years ago and only used once.
RIGHT - MDF w/ foam face. Re-worked to be held in a chuck after I got my new lathe (1996). Braided tube seats/seals into the MT2 socket.

 

[Tom Gall]

@Vincent Vogel I would recommend a way to turn on/off the pump without having to push/pull the plug. A power strip would be the easiest method and could be attached to your lathe leg with DS tape or Alien tape. I've used and old air switch for thirty years. It's attached to the headstock - attached to an extension cord - attached to the pump's power cord. The pump is about 15-20 ft. away ... reduced noise and dust/chips, etc.

 

[Vincent Vogel]

@Vincent Vogel I would recommend a way to turn on/off the pump without having to push/pull the plug. A power strip would be the easiest method and could be attached to your lathe leg with DS tape or Alien tape. I've used and old air switch for thirty years. It's attached to the headstock - attached to an extension cord - attached to the pump's power cord. The pump is about 15-20 ft. away ... reduced noise and dust/chips, etc.

@Tom Gall all, just to be clear I don't use the electric plug to turn the pump on/off. If you look at the third picture you can see the pump has an on/off switch on it and that's how I power the pump up. I keep the pump right beside the lathe with everything else I need for turning so that it's all within arm's reach. The way I usually go about vacuum chucking a bowl is put the bowl against the chuck with the tailstock live center in a divot that's centered in the tenon. Then I plug the pump in and insert the rotating adapter in the handwheel, then use the switch on the pump to turn it on. I would agree having a switch on the headstock for the pump would be more convenient. Thanks for the comment, I should have been more clear with my explanation.

 

[Tom Gall]

@Tom Gall all, just to be clear I don't use the electric plug to turn the pump on/off. If you look at the third picture you can see the pump has an on/off switch on it and that's how I power the pump up. I keep the pump right beside the lathe with everything else I need for turning so that it's all within arm's reach. The way I usually go about vacuum chucking a bowl is put the bowl against the chuck with the tailstock live center in a divot that's centered in the tenon. Then I plug the pump in and insert the rotating adapter in the handwheel, then use the switch on the pump to turn it on. I would agree having a switch on the headstock for the pump would be more convenient. Thanks for the comment, I should have been more clear with my explanation.

I understand, Vince. However, if you had the switch on the headstock: 1) you could always have the pump plugged in. 2) you could always have the pump turned on. 3) you can install the rotary union/adapter when needed 4) and THEN deal with mounting your bowl.

Where do you keep the pump when using it ... on that lower shelf? If so, that seems inconvenient to turn on/off when you can do it from the lathe.
I would also install another (larger & easier to use) ball valve before your filter for vacuum on/off to the spindle. You can then use your smaller (current) ball valve as a bleeder valve. I prefer some type of needle valve for more precise control of the vacuum as compared to a ball valve.
I would turn the gauge 45º or so, for better visibility while standing at the lathe. Just trying to be helpful!

 

[Aaron Harris]

Wow, this thread seems like a master-class for setting up and optimizing different vacum chucking situations, and I hope will serve others long after you all have helped me figure it out! After carefully considering my options, and bearing in mind my relative ignorance with what mostly looks like plumbing hardware, I opted to order basically everything but the pump from Robust: 4.5" chuck cup, hardware kit with tubing and all attachments, and vacum adaptor. Todd at Robust was super helpful on the phone. I may just have to get some kind of adaptor to make the final connection to the pump; gonna wait until I get it all put together next week to figure out that part (at which my engineer son will be home for his brother's wedding, so I will get his help on the issue if necessary).

For Tom and others who suggested that I probably don't need the reverse centering adaptor, I do always make it a point (pun intended!) to get a good deep impression from my point and cup on my Robust live center when I rough-turn a green bowl. So I'm gonna save a few bucks for now, and try it that way. It has mostly worked so far for me on various homemade friction drives, jamb chucks and the Longworth, so I hope it will work on the vacum application just as well.

Many thanks again, all-the wood-turning community is just the best! Aaron

 

[Dean Center]

As you get things set up, remember that the pump doesn't have to be right next to your ear. They vary in noise level, and while less than a compressor, some distance and/or insulation can be a good thing.

 

[Aaron Harris]

Thanks for the tip, Dean-I've got it on a table about six feet away. It's not as noisy as my compressor or dust collector, and I'm generally wearing all my safety gear including hearing protection when I'm sanding and finishing anyway.

 

[Holmes Anderson]

Is there an advantage to an outboard swivel adapter versus inboard? Seems like an outboard adapter would make changing chucks very easy, whereas an inboard adapter would have to be disconnected and then reconnected. Do outboard adapters tend to leak more because the spindle and threads become part of the vacuum conduit?

 

[GRJensen]

Is there an advantage to an outboard swivel adapter versus inboard? Seems like an outboard adapter would make changing chucks very easy, whereas an inboard adapter would have to be disconnected and then reconnected. Do outboard adapters tend to leak more because the spindle and threads become part of the vacuum conduit?

In my experience, you're not changing chucks that often, if at all. I pretty much restrict my use of the vacuum chuck to finishing the bottom of a turning ... once it is securely held by the vacuum chuck there's no need to change chucks.

Edit: My system uses an outboard adapter obtained from Craft Supplies USA.

 

[Vincent Vogel]

I only use my vacuum chuck to do the bottom of bowls. I don't have any trouble losing vacuum with the outboard adapter. Mostly it will pull 26 to 27 inches of vacuum unless there's a problem with the bowl being porous wood like red oak. I had an apple bowl on the other day and it would only pull 15 inches of vacuum and I don't know why but I couldn't pull it off.

 

[Tom Gall]

Is there an advantage to an outboard swivel adapter versus inboard? Seems like an outboard adapter would make changing chucks very easy, whereas an inboard adapter would have to be disconnected and then reconnected. Do outboard adapters tend to leak more because the spindle and threads become part of the vacuum conduit?

Nope.
As far as I know the only "inboard" system uses a compressor/venturi system. Not an optimal set up, IMO.

 

[Tom Gall]

I only use my vacuum chuck to do the bottom of bowls. I don't have any trouble losing vacuum with the outboard adapter. Mostly it will pull 26 to 27 inches of vacuum unless there's a problem with the bowl being porous wood like red oak. I had an apple bowl on the other day and it would only pull 15 inches of vacuum and I don't know why but I couldn't pull it off.

Because of volume (don't know if that is the correct terminology - square or cubic inches). You can mount a 2"ø item pulling 27in. on your guage and pull it off very easily -vs- a larger bowl pulling 5-10 in. and not being able to pull it off. This can be easily be noticeable if using a disc/plate type chuck as shown in post #12 above. Keep in mind it is not the vacuum holding your bowl but the outside pressure on the exterior of the bowl against the chuck (approx. 14psi at sea level as I recall). The larger the bowl the more pressure - that's why a "bleeder" valve is necessary to possibly avoid and implosion on a thin bowl. Of course, with a drum chuck the ID of the chuck determines the amount of (holding) pressure. The bigger the chuck the more pressure.

 

[Vincent Vogel]

Because of volume (don't know if that is the correct terminology - square or cubic inches). You can mount a 2"ø item pulling 27in. on your guage and pull it off very easily -vs- a larger bowl pulling 5-10 in. and not being able to pull it off. This can be easily be noticeable if using a disc/plate type chuck as shown in post #12 above. Keep in mind it is not the vacuum holding your bowl but the outside pressure on the exterior of the bowl against the chuck (approx. 14psi at sea level as I recall). The larger the bowl the more pressure - that's why a "bleeder" valve is necessary to possibly avoid and implosion on a thin bowl. Of course, with a drum chuck the ID of the chuck determines the amount of (holding) pressure. The bigger the chuck the more pressure.

I was using my large chuck which is 5" diameter. I haven't imploded any bowls with a wall thickness of 1/4", I do bleed some vacuum off if the wall is thinner than that (1/8"). My 2" chuck you can pull the bowl off but you have to pull pretty hard. Just be careful and don't have a catch with your gouge. I always keep my tailstock against the bowl until the last little nub has to come off. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what @Holmes Anderson means by inboard and outboard systems.

 

[Aaron Harris]

Okay, since y'all are getting down into the technical weeds re holding power, I ordered the 4.5" Robust chuck as a starting point. Assuming I get it all set up and running correctly, the whole reason I'm doing it is for elegant bottoms, and I want to cut that slight recess for my 1.25" medallion, framed by a nice bead, I think. I generally cut recesses like that with either a standard parting tool or a bedan, always with a burr fresh off the grinder. Assuming I get a good vacum and finish everything but that dead center with the tailstock and live center engaged, hopefully you don't foresee a problem with that? Obviously light cuts only once the tailstock is removed, which I'm used to doing anyway for fine finishing cuts on my Longworth chuck.

Any thoughts appreciated!

 

[Tom Gall]

Okay, since y'all are getting down into the technical weeds re holding power, I ordered the 4.5" Robust chuck as a starting point. Assuming I get it all set up and running correctly, the whole reason I'm doing it is for elegant bottoms, and I want to cut that slight recess for my 1.25" medallion, framed by a nice bead, I think. I generally cut recesses like that with either a standard parting tool or a bedan, always with a burr fresh off the grinder. Assuming I get a good vacum and finish everything but that dead center with the tailstock and live center engaged, hopefully you don't foresee a problem with that? Obviously light cuts only once the tailstock is removed, which I'm used to doing anyway for fine finishing cuts on my Longworth chuck.

Any thoughts appreciated!

Should be a piece of cake! I assume you are going to glue the medallion in with something like E6000. If so, you might want a slightly concave surface in the center for the adhesive (to avoid any oozing) and so the edges are flush with the surface. Careful - you don't want any funnels at this point!

 

[Aaron Harris]

Should be a piece of cake! I assume you are going to glue the medallion in with something like E6000. If so, you might want a slightly concave surface in the center for the adhesive (to avoid any oozing) and so the edges are flush with the surface. Careful - you don't want any funnels at this point!

Yeah, I figure a dab of 5-minute epoxy and twirl it around for an even coating should do the trick. I've done enough glue blocks to know to do the slight concave. Thanks, Tom!

 

[Holmes Anderson]

I was using my large chuck which is 5" diameter. I haven't imploded any bowls with a wall thickness of 1/4", I do bleed some vacuum off if the wall is thinner than that (1/8"). My 2" chuck you can pull the bowl off but you have to pull pretty hard. Just be careful and don't have a catch with your gouge. I always keep my tailstock against the bowl until the last little nub has to come off. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what @Holmes Anderson means by inboard and outboard systems.

I was referring to vacuum chucking systems like Frugal, Simple Turning Tools and Hold Fast as being inboard versus systems like Rubber Chucky and Oneway as being outboard based on the location of the swivel adapter. The inboard systems integrate the swivel adapter into the chuck. The outboard systems have a separate-from-chuck swivel adapter mounted to the outboard end of the spindle. The manufacturer's websites would benefit from more detail. I assume that a rigid tube is better than flex tubing for extending through the spindle without interference and the outboard adapters like Rubber Chucky avoid the need for tubing through the spindle altogether. Does Hold Fast work without their adapter, e.g., tubing direct to chuck? Does Rubber Chucky work with chucks from other manufacturers, e.g., Oneway? I already have a vacuum pump for press work and am thinking about dipping a toe into vacuum chucking. I'd like to be able to chuck a wide range of bowl diameters, so may need at least a couple of chucks. STT seems to be a single chuck system. Rubber Chucky looks like a good system but my lathe is not on their list and doesn't have the common 5/8" spindle opening. Ideally, I would like to avoid being locked into a single system or supplier.

 

[Dave Landers]

I was referring to vacuum chucking systems like Frugal, Simple Turning Tools and Hold Fast as being inboard versus systems like Rubber Chucky and Oneway as being outboard based on the location of the swivel adapter. The inboard systems integrate the swivel adapter into the chuck. The outboard systems have a separate-from-chuck swivel adapter mounted to the outboard end of the spindle. The manufacturer's websites would benefit from more detail. I assume that a rigid tube is better than flex tubing for extending through the spindle without interference and the outboard adapters like Rubber Chucky avoid the need for tubing through the spindle altogether. Does Hold Fast work without their adapter, e.g., tubing direct to chuck? Does Rubber Chucky work with chucks from other manufacturers, e.g., Oneway? I already have a vacuum pump for press work and am thinking about dipping a toe into vacuum chucking. I'd like to be able to chuck a wide range of bowl diameters, so may need at least a couple of chucks. STT seems to be a single chuck system. Rubber Chucky looks like a good system but my lathe is not on their list and doesn't have the common 5/8" spindle opening. Ideally, I would like to avoid being locked into a single system or supplier.

I do agree it can be confusing. I use what you're calling "inboard" (Fugal). Here's some of my thoughts about it (might not help with the confusion, but here I go anyway):

Changing chucks is not a problem - each vacuum chuck has its own bearing with a thru-pipe. And the way mine are, each also has a longer tube "tail" that sticks thru the spindle. The hose from the vac pump and manifold just slips over the end of the tube (press fit).

That tube "tail" is some plastic polyvinyl tube. Doesn't really matter how flexible or rigid it is as long as you can push it thru the spindle.

Having the bearing in the chuck means I can use the vacuum system on either of my lathes. An "outboard" swivel might fit both of them, but I didn't have to figure that out.

Since the vacuum doesn't run thru the spindle, my vacuum chucks mount on my 4-jaw chucks which I find convenient. So they don't need a faceplate or threads for the spindle etc.

I don't know about anybody's specific chucks working one way or the other. Those with a bearing would work just fine with an "outboard" spindle adapter if they also threaded directly on the spindle (the bearing would just be doing nothing but proving a hole). Mine wouldn't work like that because the 4-jaw chuck would leak.

All my vacuum chucks are home-made. They were getting a bit worn after 7 years of use so I remade all 3 the other morning. Cost me some wood and PVC couplers, and I have new chucks about 3", 4", and 5" diameter. Still want to remake the small 1.25" one. Of course, chucks for an "outboard" style system can be similarly made but require some way to thread onto the spindle (Beall tap or faceplate etc).

All the parts for the Frugal system (and similar) are available at most hardware or big-box stores. Bob (the frugal guy) just puts it together so you don't have to go hunting.

Like so many such things - Neither way is better or worse. Just different.

 

[Aaron Harris]

So just to update my progress on this project, after considering all the advice above, I ordered all components except for the RobinAir pump from Robust (including all the hardware, the spindle adapter and a 4.5-inch chuck), mainly because all of the hardware came in a kit with easy instructions and a video for vacum-chucking newbies like me. Thankfully my engineer son was in town for his brother's wedding, and he helped me figure out the final coupling, which turned out to be a female-to-female 1/4"inch brass npt coupling. After gently tightening all the connections, I can pull a steady 25# of vacum. At that pressure, I couldn't wrench the unfinished maple bowl off of the chuck even pulling pretty hard, so it seems pretty secure. So I can now finish my bottoms and inset one of my new 1.25" brushed copper medallions from Gary at Signature Medallions at the same time! (He was great to deal with, and the medallions are beautiful!).


I'm gonna try it out with a beautiful 14x2 platter blank I got from Gary and Kirk DeHeer of A Cut Above Bowl Company that I plan to start tomorrow. I can't thank everyone enough for all the patient advice and helpful pictures-woodturners are the best hobby community I have ever been a part of! (Please excuse the mess in my shop: I spend all weekend roughing green blanks, and it shows!). Vacum Pump Video

edit to add: I guess I need to figure out a better muffler for the filthy carbon exhaust than a loose paper towel lol!